HectorSpace

This thread seems to have drawn some pretty emotive comments on what was supposed to be an objective discussion on how the PX5s might be improved. Not surprising given how 'open loop' forum communication is. None of us has access to background associated with the points people have made. So we guess. Guessing for humans means filling the gaps with our own projected feelings and expectations. When you buy a product you make an emotional commitment because you are associating your Self with it. This grows because when you use your piano on stage or wherever, with luck, it becomes your trusted friend. Of course people don't want to hear negatives about their emotional investment! Similarly nor do Casio employees. Because I think the PX5s is worth it, I will endeavour to fill in the background (Where I'm coming from and why I'm making the points I have). I bought the PX5s after 9 months of hands-on market research. I wanted to replace my trusty old RD700SX as the central controller of my rig, reduce the number of keyboards from 3 to 2 and cut down the weight. I'd downloaded read all the manuals, made trips to London to try out all the competitors (Kawai mp6, Yamaha Cp4, Kurzweil Artis, Nord Stage 2 HA88, Roland RD700NX, Korg Krome). My first choice was the Stage 2 HA88, this turned out to be a big mistake. Having bought it and tried to live with it for a month I gave up. It really is a dysfunctional machine. Nord are on software rev 1.72 and after 3 years it still doesn't work properly. The keybed action is average, the sample playback system is worthy of a mid 80's keyboard and the organ simulation isn't nearly as good as on my Electro 3, nor are the effects. Nord's customer service is well.. none! I'd originally discounted the PX5s after a less than satisfactory demo in Denmark St London. The display model was on a lousy stand, the headphones I was given were poor and I found the interface quite non-intuitive after years with Roland and Nord. After my experience with the Stage I went back over everything that was out there and concluded that I should give the PX5s another go. Nothing else on the market came close. So I bought a PX5s and immediately it was the right choice. I was out there gigging with it after two days. I didn't need to fiddle with the piano sounds at all, they were great straight out of the box (A massive achievement that is so understated!). The action is great, as for the interface, it is quirky but logical so you get used to it. To put it as simply as I can the PX5s is a great keyboard. In terms of significance it's up there with the Dx7, the Prophet 5, the Mini Moog, the Emulator 2 and the Akai S900. It is a mould-breaker, it has opened the door to a set of possibilities that didn't really exist before. Both Roland and Nord have nibbled at the idea of light weight keyboards, I think the Juno Di and the Electro 3 are both good in their own way, but limited. The Px5s goes much further, in that it is a full blown multi timbral synthesiser and a great piano/electric piano/clav with a great piano action, in an easy to carry package. It does exactly what I need it to and with a deal of programming and some lateral thinking, it has shown itself to be more than able to take over from the RD700SX. Casio have done a good job, but the wave (pun intended!) of change that the PX5s has swept in makes it inevitable that some issues and applications could not be predicted. My comments were meant wholly as an objective critique of what could be better within the constraints of what I know can be achieved. (I worked as a software engineer on embedded, real time control systems for 20years, including 10years at Lockheed Martin). BTW Mike… On a system that is as complex as the PX5s, it is a brave man that sticks his neck out and says there are no bugs!! Agreed, probably improving the sample library is a bit of a long shot. The remaining improvements I mentioned are not. Does it matter if Casio never makes another firmware update for the PX5s.. No it doesn't. Could the PX5s be improved, yes it could. QED

If we don't push it won't happen! Here's my list 1. To be able to turn off midi reception for each individual zone 2. In a zone to be able to match the midi receive channel to the zone's selected transmit channel 3. Mono mode.. Mono mode.. MONO MODE 4. To designate a midi cc to control DCF/DCA LFO frequency.. Vib doesn't touch the amp or filter LFO 5. Improved Brass section sample fidelity and sample mapping.. If needed dump the stereo brass to gain the rom space! 6. Can we have some reasonable electric guitar samples please? Ie funk guitar and a distorted lead that doesn't sound crappy! 7. Move transpose to a top level system menu entry. Really! 8. Add a proper compressor defeat/ bypass menu item 9. Enable midi controller to control a panel knob or slider... Yes seriously! We've all seen The Morph.. How about trumping it on the PX5? You could then dynamically assign an external midi controller pedal to drive multiple px5s controls.. In fact anything you can currently only control from the panel knobs/sliders.... 10. Yes designate a midi cc for Master Volume Yes we know you can do a huge amount with hex layers and all the associated synthesis.. But there is a limit to it... You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, so ultimately we are limited by the sample set the PX5s contains.. In the areas of brass and electric guitars it falls well short of where it should be in today's market. I know, I have spent many hours trying to match the brass section sounds available on my 10+ year old Roland RD700SX.. Sounds that I don't consider to be that great, but good enough to gig with.. But even after some very careful hex synthesis (adding the missing harmonics etc) the PX5s is second. Roland are known for good brass my humble Juno Di is brilliant.. But even so it is the sheer lack of mapped samples across the keyboard and poor sample fidelity on the meat and two veg brass section sets that is really less than acceptable.. Same too for electric guitars.. Yes I have taken Roland's COSM screaming Gtr to pieces and spent hours trying to rebuild it in a hex. Here there are two things missing.. One is the quality of the amp sim/distortion DSP.. The other is the sample mapping of the lead guitar sets. I might add that Roland make some very lame samples passable by using an electric piano sample set as the main sound body of the COSM guitar.. It works because of the quality of the amp/distortion simulation. Perhaps the most important thing here is that to simulate an authentic sound you need the attack portion of the real thing. But if one sample is mapped over too many keys you get a rubbish attack at the extremes.. This problem affects both electric guitar and brass on the PX5s. I've seen arguments suggesting Casio won't put mono mode in the next update because they want to sell their synths. If we pair back to the major selling points of the PX5s; 1. It's light weight, 2. It's quality keybed, 3. It's quality piano and electric piano sounds, 4. It's price. You can see that weight is right up there. So why would we want to carry extra keyboards to cover such a minor change? Same goes for the controller pedal input. Same goes for having good enough samples... The Px5s is about the pianists dream of traveling light... Don't break it please.

Hi Guys As I said previously, we all use our kit in our own way and so have our own pet needs. There are some fundamentals though. Midi cc 11 is expression. This controller does not change the max volume of a part or zone, it nicely sweeps from nowt up to the volume level preset for that part/zone if you have a continuous pedal or some other continuous control device. Midi cc 07 is volume for a part/zone. It will override the preset level for this part. Master volume is different again. It does not change the relative levels of each zone/part. It actually sweeps the whole systems's volume up or down if you can control it and you have a controlling device! As has already been said, the direct way to change master volume on the px5s is via a device type specific system exclusive message. It is possible to program the MidiSolutions controller pedal unit to send out a dynamically formed message of this type and so use a continuous pedal to control the px5s master volume. Interestingly though the net effect of configuring all parts to respond to cc 11 (expression) is pretty much the same. The volume of each part is fixed relative to other parts and all will increase or decrease together in response to the controller pedal. I'm pretty sure that parts 5 to 16 will also respond to externally input cc11 messages although i dont think these parts can be directly controlled from the px5s panel knobs and sliders. Some more food for thought! :-)

Thanks guys, I'm on the case! BTW I just got in after having a glorious August Sunday afternoon playing good old 50’s rock and roll in the middle of a field at the Mid Somerset Show depping on piano for the Harlem Rhythm Cat's on my trusty PX5s! Man did I have a ball! :-) That gig would have been a total pain if I'd had to take my RD.. Couldn't get the van anywhere near, too many people!

Midi Solutions controller pedal update: I have now tried powering the unit from the Px5s midi out. It works. Once you plug the px5s midi out to the Midisolutions midi input and its midi out to the PX5s midi in, you cannot plug any other midi devices in using the midi connectors and you have effectively got a loop. So it is important to turn off the Midi Solutions merge facility (they call it echo!) . As I stated above the unit is delivered configured to send the cc for volume, on channel 1, also midi merge is off. So if your rig is simple (ie no other midi devices) or you use USB midi for most things then this will work fine! I can't help feeling life would have been a lot easier though if there'd been a couple of continuous pedal controller inputs on the px5. My current plan is to modify the px5s once the warranty period has expired. I really don't need 6 sliders and 4 knobs! Although I find I use the the sliders quite a lot, I don't use the knobs much. As far as i can tell these knobs are analogue pots. So I'm planning on adding a couple of switching stereo jacks on the back and paralleling the pots for knobs 3 & 4 through these and a little bit of protection circuitry. So when the pedals (I use modified Yamaha Fc7's) are plugged in they take over the knob operation. Because these knobs are so configurable and they're at the heart of the px5s system, the control options multiply massively without compromising the rig with extra wires, power supplies and boxes. Roll on next year!

Having spent some time using the Midi Solutions Pedal Controller in conjunction with the Px-5s here's my feedback:- 1. If you just want to control volume on channel 1 its fine straight out the box. But, In order to configure it to do anything else, you have either to ask John to do it for you or dig into midi coding. Currently I'm unaware of any application from MidiSoultions that will program the unit. I ended up using a pen and paper to work out the code sequences needed and then MidiToolBox on my IPad + CCK and a Midi Sport 2x2 to code up the SysEx sequences and send them to the Midi Solutions unit. Not for the faint hearted! 2. The MidiSolutions unit requires a vanilla (bog standard) midi input to power it. For example my Nord Electro 3, which is part of my rig, will happily talk to any unit I plug its midi out into except the MidiSolutions unit... This is because Nord's midi out runs at 3.25v, not 5v. Many modern keyboards are like this. There is no facility to simply plug a power supply directly into the Pedal Controller unit either. So beware you'll probably need to buy the extra midi through box and power supply from MidiSolutions in order to use the Pedal Controller. I haven't yet tried plugging the Pedal Controller's Midi input directly to the PX-5s midi out, largely because that's sending midi to my Nord, so it wouldn't help my situation, but it may be that the Px-5s midi out is more standard as far as voltage is concerned. This sort of loop configuration would allow dynamic reprogramming of the controller pedal's function by the PX-5s.. For example providing expression control over different zones depending on the stage setup. Finally a general comment. 1. There is no single or right way to use the PX5s we are all different and each of us has evolved different strategies for playing, each having different needs from our rigs. That's why it's hugely important that keyboards like the PX5s are as flexible and configurable as possible. 2. The reason why we are all passionate about the PX5s is that it is a really great product. One that enables so much in such a convenient package. With all that emotion and the fact that the PX5s is opening the doors to possibilities that really didn't exist at this price break before, it's no wonder there's a few raw edges to shout about! :-)

The mod wheel does control LFO depth for both Filter and Amp. You can independently adjust the response to the mod wheel for the pitch (vib), Filter and Amp. So it is possible to simulate an excellent EP200 tremolo effect, without using the DSP. In fact I've found, like others, that using the DSP to provide Amp simulation in conjunction with Amp LFO, really creates a very good Wurly. This is also true for Rhodes patches, although you can also use the PX5 ARP facilities for that zone to add panning as an alternative to LFO Trem. The Mod wheel CC is a catch all for mod depth, which is what it says on the tin! What would be nice as you say, is the ability to control the frequency of the Filter and Amp LFO via a CC or even a knob/slider, selectable dedicated internal function. Currently the CC's for Vib Depth and VIb Rate only adjust the Pitch LFO. Which is totally understandable because that's what they say they do. A couple of CASIO specific or industry standard CC's for AMP Mod depth and Frequency would be cool! :-)

There are a couple of seriously frustrating limitations with the PX-5s midi spec. 1. You can't change the channel a zones 1 - 4 receive on. 2. You can't individually disable a zone's midi reception. The major issue is that there are too many bits of equipment out there that do not allow you to properly configure the midi channels they work on. Or claim to be midi controllers and don't properly provide for dynamic midi configuration (Nord Stage 2..Yes I'm not kidding!). So you end up with a pile of wires and an iPad kludge. Yes I love my iPads, but I remain to be convinced that using them to control your stage rig is really a good idea. It kind of takes me back to the days of the Sinclair Spectrum and all the add on bits hanging off the back.. Not designed to be gigged hard. When you couple these limitations with the lack of continuous controller inputs, meaning you have to use an external midi based volume or expression input, it makes it damn difficult to dynamically configure the PX-5s by simply using Stage Setups. I use zone 1 for the main sound I'm playing which is normally a dynamic sound like piano /electric piano or guitar. This means I can set the overall Px -5s volume level to suit. I'm currently using an Midi Solutions Controller Pedal adaptor to provide Expression control for Zones 2 and 3 (typically Brass and Synth/Strings). Zone 4 is bass from my StudioLogic MP117 pedals and I have my Nord Electro 3 73 (Organ/Strgs/Clav) providing Expression for itself! Ideally I would like to be able to dynamically switch over zone 3 to use the Expression pedal output from the Electro 3, on some songs, by simply selecting a Stage Setup. Can't do it! If the PX-5s allowed me to dynamically change midi input channels for the zones and individually disable midi input for each zone I could. Or if the Px-5s mixer settings were saved as part of a Stage Setup, I could use part 5 for bass. BTW Using the PX-5s Stage setup to set the Electro 3's preset/progam works fine... A lot better than thumbing through 128 presets with 4 buttons!!! Lol. Being able to swap the zone I'm sending the preset from from zone 1 to zone 3 by setting zone 3's midi channel to 1 also works. If only I could change the receive channels! Gasp! I might add that I'm fighting a loosing battle here. I've just bought an RD800 on which Roland have culled the midi spec... Guess what! you can no longer select the receive channels for parts 1 to 4 AND you can't even configure parts 5 to 16 on the instrument let alone store its configuration!... Oh dear we are going backwards.. the empire is in decline! I was going to sell my RD700SX but it seems nothing can match it as a stage master keyboard.

Lol, so putting global transpose under a second level menu titled Midi, is logical and intuitive.... I don't think so. Just like putting master compressor defeat as a value of Ratio.. With this there is an implicit expectation that Px 5s users will all know what Ratio does and that the parameter numbers in some way equate to compression ratio. With zero being zero compression. Casio's system designers don't seem to have engaged with typical musicians. Don't get me wrong, I think the Px 5s is a great keyboard.. It's a little quirky but hey that's ok.. You just need to be honest about it.

Isn't it under the Midi Menu in System Settings?

Oops.. missed that one, sorry Brad. Mind you there is nothing like a Defeat menu option.. and that's nothing like it!! In fact burying the defeat in amongst the control parameters is not intuitive and just leads to confusion.. as above... Lol Transpose button anyone!!!

In addition to BradMZ's input, It seems that you also have to set the Ratio to zero in order to defeat the Compressor completely. So that’s Threshold = 0 + Ratio = 0 for Compressor off. I’d also agree with BradMZ that a figure of between 7 and 10 is about right for the Threshold. I think this is because it allows the quieter notes to get through un-compressed. So the exact ‘knee’ point of the Threshold will depend on your playing style and the music programme. As far as Ratio is concerned I think figures of around 80 to 100 seem to work quite well without sounding too squashed. But exactly what this means in db I don’t know. As far as Level is concerned I’m guessing this actually defines the target signal level ceiling? I’ve got mine set to 67 Attack for piano is always going to be sharp so Zero Release I think, should also be short, I’ve got mine set at 27. Position, I’ve got mine set to PreEQ… Not sure which is better?

Perhaps I haven't made myself clear. 1. I was not suggesting one setting for all scenarios: It is utterly clear that would be nonsense! I was actually requesting a set of typical generic templates for a range of applications. 2. My experience has been that adjusting the touch response and or velocity settings of the PX does not provide a satisfactory solution. Basically because there aren't enough variations between Heavy and Light. You loose the ability to access the more subtle tones in the lower velocity ranges once you select Light, because the conversion from key touch to velocity becomes too compressed to play effectively. Besides the compressor solution has always worked fine for me on the Roland. 3. We would all like to have a FoH engineer with the ability and equipment to properly manage a full on piano.. But typically that isn't the case! Most working musicians play gigs where the economics of having extra sound crew don't add up Besides the general requirement for dynamic range compression is pretty standard once you have a Drummer, Bass player and Guitarist on stage with you. To cope with the ambiant noise here, I'd suggest you need to squeeze the dynamic range down to around 20db from may be 50db? 4. Alternatives do not excuse the lack of information regarding the configuration of the compressor. Thanks

Hi, Over the years I've come to realise just how important compression is for the stage pianist. The better digital pianos have become, the more important compression has become. Although I can remember have just the same problem with my Fender Rhodes Stage 73 back in 1977! The basic problem is that the dynamic range of a piano is massive in comparison the typical gig environment and pa capability. Unless there is an agreement in the audience to be quiet the, quietest notes will have to be amplified to a level where the loudest notes will be beyond the pa's reproduction capability. This situation gets dramatically worse when performing with a typical band. Once you add drums the actual dynamic range is seriously squashed. Simply turning up the piano's volume isn't a solution. All the will happen is distortion, simply because the difference between quiet notes and loud ones is too great for the pa or your backline to handle. The solution is compression. That's why serious stage pianos have master compressors. I've been using the master compressor on my Roland RD700SX for many years. It enables me to convey something of both quiet and loud parts even in a loud environment. It works very well. Can't say the same for the Nord Stage 2's master compressor.. It's a blunt thing that shouts 'I've been compressed' Not what you want if all you are trying to do is let the audience hear the piano 'naturally'. The PX5s has a master compressor, and I've spent some time with it, trying to understand exactly what the parameters are actually doing. It isn't as straight forward as you might think. Page E-23 of main PX5s Tutorial gives an outline of the controls available but there isn't enough info to understand what constitutes typical settings. For example: Threshold, does as it says, do more than simply adjust the threshold at which compression starts, but it isn't clear exactly what the relationship is between numbers 0 and 127 and Compression threshold / Limiter. This is true for Ratio too. In fact it isn't obviously clear what setting these two should have to defeat the compressor so that it does not affect the signal!! Maybe we could have these properly defined? A diagram with numbers would be brilliant! What would also be very useful is some setup guides (templates) for typical applications, just like I've defined above. E.g.. dynamic range reduced so as to work with a typical five piece band, but not sound like a sledgehammer; or settings to suit piano backing for a singer/soloist; or piano for worship etc.. Typical working musician stuff….. Thanks

In order to simulate a classic PMW effect with two sawtooth layers (oscillators) you'd need to simply detune one layer slightly. If you wanted to modulate the PMW effect you could apply one of various pitch modulators to one layer. Certainly on the old Juno 60 you could get quite close to an oscillator sync sound by modulating the pulse width with an envelope. Not sure quite what that might sound like in this situation? My guess is that you'd have to apply the modulation very subtly! I haven't yet dug into the works of the PX5 enough to be sure of all the modulation possibilities, but basically you should be able modulation the pitch of a tone, or a layer within a Hex, with a LFO, a pitch envelope and various midi controllers (including knobs wheels and pedals) haven't seen velocity as a modulation source option though. Cheers HS