chuckbutler

Thanks, Brad. That's what I figured; I don't use my Casio as a MIDI controller (so far), so this was new to me. Strange choice to enable the MIDI out for all Zones by default though, since it creates the problem that my friend, and Tom (above) ran into. Anyway, problem solved!

I had to troubleshoot a problem for a friend who has a PX-5S and the solution got me curious about a feature that I'm not sure I understand. The friend in question is a bandleader I work for regularly. He's been impressed with the sound of the PX-5S since I got it to replace my (very heavy) Roland Fantom a couple of years ago, so when the Triton he uses for some gigs he does on his own died about 8 months ago he decided to replace it with a PX. I gave him a bunch of the sounds that I use and he's been very happy . . . with one exception. He plays a lot of church or otherwise religious gigs (funerals, etc.), and for these purposes he likes to use the Garritan Classic Pipe Organ that he runs in Aria Player on his laptop. A few months ago he told me that he was experiencing limited polyphony and occasional heavy distortion when using the PX-5S as a controller for the Garritan Organ. He also reported that this only occurs with the PX; one church he performs at has some kind of Kawai keyboard in house, and when he connects his laptop and interface to it he experiences no problems whatever. I was able to reproduce both problems using his PX, but I couldn't imagine why there would be any difference between the Casio and the Kawai. MIDI is MIDI, right? After googling around a bit, I read a couple of reports where users had resolved some strange MIDI issues by turning of the High Definition MIDI setting. I tried that, and it seemed to make some improvement. This made sense, if only because it would account for a difference in MIDI output between the Casio and the Kawai. But last week my friend called to say that he was still having the same issues and asked if I would take another look. I went through everything in his setup and couldn't find anything that would account for the problem, so I began looking at the PX more closely. Nothing in System Settings seemed relevant, but then I dug into the MIDI page of the Stage Settings, where I discovered the ability to turn MIDI on/off for each Zone (for both the MIDI out port as well as the USB port, which is what he uses to connect to his laptop). Long story short, it turns out that both of his problems are solved by turning off USB MIDI for all but one Zone. What was happening, I presume, is that each time a key was played on the Casio, the USB port was sending out 4 identical MIDI messages (one for each Zone). This explains why his polyphony was limited, and why he was hearing distortion (due to the cumulative effect of triggering 4 samples/note instead of 1). Once I made that change everything worked as expected, so I proceeded to make the same edit to every Stage Setting he uses while controlling the organ (sometimes he likes to layer certain PX sounds with the Pipe Organ). Assuming I've interpreted the results correctly, here are my questions: 1. Why would MIDI and USB outs be enabled for each Zone by default? Wouldn't this cause the same problem for any user who simply wants to control a single external MIDI device from their PX? Wouldn't it make more sense to enable MIDI and USB outs for Zone 1 only, and then let the user decide whether to activate any or all of the other 3? 2. And in that regard, what is accomplished sending separate MIDI per Zone? In other words, what is the intended purpose of the feature? The only thing I can imagine is that perhaps there is a way for the PX to send data to 4 different external MIDI destinations (just as it can send MIDI data internally to 4 different Zones). The idea, I guess, would be that you could connect the PX to another multitimbral module and trigger 4 different sounds, each layering one of the Zones in your PX (or perhaps using a Zone to play a sound from the external device that the PX doesn't have). The manual is a bit vague; is that the idea? Thanks. Just curious.

Re the Tone locations, this is a rare occasion where the manufacturer is (in a sense) understating the instrument's capabilities. As Mike points out above, the PX-5S can hold 350 user-customized Tones. But the PX-5S can also hold 100 user-customized Stage Settings, and any edits to the Tones that are used within a Stage Setting are retained as part of that Stage Setting's data. Since each Stage Setting can contain up to 4 Tones, that's an additional 400 custom Tones that a user could potentially have stored in the instrument. At least that's my current understanding. Mike would have to tell us whether there is actually sufficient storage space in the 5S to max out as I've suggested. (And this re-raises a question I posed earlier in this thread: is the storage space for Tone data held within Stage Settings independent of that for individual Tones, such that one could literally store 350 custom Tones along with an additional 400 contained in Stage Settings?)

Yes, thanks, that's clear, Mike. The thing that's maybe not so intuitive is that you have to select the Tone you want to edit from within EDIT > Stage Setting and *then* back out and go into EDIT > Tone. Correct me if I'm wrong, but once you're into EDIT > Tone there's no way to edit a Tone on one of the other Zones (only the last Zone selected in EDIT > Stage Setting is available for editing in EDIT > Tone). So if I'm finished editing the Tone assigned to Zone 1, and now I want to edit the Tone assigned to Zone 2, I have to go back into EDIT > Stage Setting, use the Zone +/- to select Zone 2, and then navigate back to EDIT > Tone. Correct?

When you write it out in a series of steps it seems more complicated than it actually is. After you do it a few times you'll be able to create a simple Stage Setting in 10 seconds. Coming from years of (mainly) Roland products, I too felt a little unclear about the Stage Setting / Tone relationship. But as Mike suggested to me, as a pro player, you're going to want to focus on the Stage Settings. I rarely even touch the Tone category buttons at this point other than to assign a Tone to a Zone when I'm creating a custom Stage Setting. What you really want to do is spend a little time getting all of your Stage Settings set up the way you like. I never touch the Tone category buttons during a live performance. A killer feature, which I didn't realize until Mike pointed it out the other day, is that any Tone edits you make are saved within the current Stage Setting. This means that you don't (necessarily) have to take the additional step of individually saving the edits you make to Tones within a Stage Setting; just save the Stage Setting and it's all there. Definitely makes patch management easier. (Note: there are reasons why you might *want* to save individual Tone edits; for example if you create a Tone that will be shared by more than one Stage Setting.) The paradigm is similar to the familiar Patch/Performance distinction used in Roland (and other) products--the key difference being that on the PX-5S you are *always* in (what amounts to) Performance mode (that is, you are always working within a Stage Setting). So using the Tone category buttons is not quite like changing patches on other synths in the sense that there is no dedicated "Patch mode" on the PX-5S. You are always in "Performance mode" (that is, in a Stage Setting), so when you use the Category buttons to change a Tone, you are really changing the Tone assigned to Zone 1 (or whatever the current Zone you've selected is) within the current Stage Setting. Now, there's nothing wrong with doing this, it's just that from a pro user perspective you will probably want to specify key ranges and other controller options, and then line up your Stage Settings so that you can move through Stage Settings quickly and efficiently during a live performance. This is best accomplished by creating custom Stage Settings. I'm sure Mike will post some videos about basic editing, but for now, all you need to understand is that each Stage Setting has 4 Zones: Zone 1 Zone 2 Zone 3 Zone 4 You can assign a Tone (with some limitations re Hex Layers, see the docs) to any combination of Zones to create a Stage Setting. Many of the Stage Settings (like the electric and acoustic pianos) are just a single Tone assigned to Zone 1 with the other 3 Zones turned off. That's why those are a good starting point if you just want to create some simple Stage Settings using individual Tones that you like. Once you go into EDIT > Stage Setting > Zone Edit > Mixer Edit, you'll see that you can use the ZONE +/- buttons (to the left of the display) to move through the 4 Zones. Then you use the arrow keys (to the right of the display) to navigate through the parameters for each Zone. It's pretty straightforward once you spend a little time with it. Within any given Zone, you can assign key and velocity ranges, so it's easy to create velocity layers and keyboard splits. I literally created 30-40 of the most essential Stage Settings I need for my gigs on the first day I had the keyboard. Spend a couple of hours with it; you'll figure it out. I learned a lot by just going into edit mode and looking around and the factory Stage Settings, just to see how they were set up.

Ah, okay, I see . . . you have to go into Zone edit first, select the Zone that contains the Tone you want to edit, then *back out* (EXIT) to get back to the Tone edit target. Unfortunately the only way to confirm that you're editing the Tone you think you're editing (other than the effect of any parameter changes you might make) is to scroll down to Name Edit--there's no other visual indication of what Tone is being edited. Thanks, though; at least I now see how to do it.

What you want to do is pretty quick and easy: 1. Call up a basic Stage Setting that has just 1 Zone enabled; the 0-0 Piano is a good starting point (Press BANK > 0 > 0) 2. Now use the Tone category buttons on the left and either the YES/NO buttons or knob 2 to select a Tone you like 3. Next, press WRITE, then ENTER to prepare to store this custom Stage Setting 4. Use the YES/NO buttons or knob 2 to choose a location to save your Setting. (WARNING: The PS-5X does not show you the name of the patch you're about to overwrite in the new location, so you'll want to plan ahead and think about where you're putting things.) 5. If desired, use the Right Arrow key and knob 2 to rename your custom Setting, then press ENTER. You're done.

I'm assuming Mike is talking about this one: http://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/files/file/4-pianodynamc/ (Mike will correct me if I'm wrong.) I played around with this for a while today. The thing is, so far as I can tell, the main difference is the the velocity range has been reduced from +63 to +43. I actually find that to be a bit of an overreaction; I'm finding that something around +50 or +53 works well (though this will vary according to an individual player's touch and the musical context). But this only addresses my issue (#3 above) in the sense that it reduces the dynamic range of the upper register (along with every other register). Even with the dynamic range reduced, I still find the the upper register trails off a bit relative to the rest of the instrument (and of course I don't want to give up too much dynamic range in any register, nor do I want to make the sound significantly brighter like the Modern Piano patch I use for pop stuff). Let me put it this way. When I'm soloing in a jazz trio context, I find myself needing to "dig in" a lot more than I'm used to in the upper 2.5 octaves (compared to an acoustic)--the sound doesn't penetrate through the drummer's ride cymbal like I'm used to with an acoustic (or even my Fantom X). Let me be clear that I'm not talking about a *drastic* change. As I've said, I'd just like to be able to "tilt" the key scaling such that the extreme low register is a bit less heavy and the extreme upper register penetrates a bit more at a given overall volume. I notice this in certain classical pieces as well; for example, Chopin Op. 10 No. 1 (C major)--on the Casio those arpeggios doesn't snap off with the same brilliance that they have when played on my acoustic. It's a subtle thing; most players probably wouldn't even notice; but I've been playing for over 40 years. I've tried the workaround suggested by another user in the other thread about this; the problem is that it's tough to get the Zones with increased amplitude to transition smoothly. Still working on it.

1. Mono mode would be a "conflict" as in: if the PX-5S had a mono mode people might be less inclined to purchase a XW? I can't believe that would be a concern; I mean, you included Hex layers and didn't see that as a problem. Anyway, it's not a big deal; just something fairly obvious that would add to the PX's feature set. 2. Interesting. Wonder if I could get that to do what I want. I'll give it a whirl when I have time--thanks. 3. Downloaded that piano today; need to spend a little time with it and see if it's an improvement. 4. Awesome! 10. No biggie. It probably sounds like I'm complaining, but I'm not--knew that there might be a few issues like this for early adopters. 11. I literally had to quit every application on my MacBook Pro (inc. Mail & Safari) before the editor would run. This requirement is mentioned right at the beginning of the docs.

Let me preface the following by saying that overall I am thrilled with the PX-5S; it has made my gigging life better and easier in more ways than I can count. I mention these issues purely in the spirit of constructive criticism, and of course on the possibility that some of them may have solutions that I have overlooked (so thanks in advance for any suggestions). 1. A mono mode for synth leads and basses would be a welcome addition, if possible. 2. I don't see any way to trigger the pitch envelope by velocity. This would be used, e.g., to simulate a slide into a note (as on a guitar) in a certain velocity range (typically 125-127). 3. As I mentioned in another thread, I find that the pianos tend to "fade away" a bit in the upper register. And while a workaround is possible, it would be nice to have scaling options to deal with this, either within the Tone or the Stage Setting (currently this is only possible within Hex Tones, as I understand it). 4. When editing note ranges in Stage Settings, it would be nice to be able to use the keyboard to enter the range value (IOW, if I want the bottom note of the range to be C3, I should just be able to press that key on the keyboard). 5. I'd love to know how the compressor ratio values map to real world compression settings (000-127 doesn't tell me much). And I wish there was some way to add a gain reduction meter. 6. For future reference (given that CASIO seems to be serious about appealing to pro users) it is impossible to see the position of knobs that are black on black under typical stage lighting conditions. (I've used a permanent marker to draw high-contrast hash marks on the knobs.) And with the volume knob in particular, there need to be some markings *around* the knob so that the user can have a point of reference for the knob position (so that levels are consistent from gig to gig). Related to this is the decision to make the labeling on the *back* panel white-on-white. This is almost impossible to see during setup in poor lighting conditions, and the nicely contrasted labeling on the top of the unit doesn't help when there is a second keyboard on a tier above the PX-5S. 7. A small UI quirk is that the naming procedure for Tones and Stage Settings is different (and like some other users I was initially stumped as to how to rename a SS). Good UI design means being as consistent as possible with procedures like this. 8. Perhaps my biggest issue with the PX-5S is that there is no way to see the *name* of a Tone or SS that's about to be overwritten. This means that I have to do a lot of meticulous data management outside of the unit (and carry it around to gigs) so that I don't accidentally overwrite something I need--or I have to have the forethought to go through a lot of button pressing to confirm where I'm going to put something before I put it there. 9. A related danger is that loading a patch from USB *overwrites* the SS at the selected location! This means that I have to keep a "null" SS location as a place to audition patches. Normally a patch would load into an edit buffer before being committed to a memory location--and it seems like this should be possible in the PX-5S since a patch loaded from the (software) editor doesn't overwrite the patch currently stored in the selected location. 10. The biggest hassle with the firmware update was having to back up and then restore all of my (60+) custom Stage Settings. This will be easier in the future with the software editor, but it would be nice if the editor could handle a folder hierarchy for the patch data stored on my computer (currently it seems to only be able to "see" (access) data on the root level of the "Data" folder). A user-definable folder hierarchy would make patch management easier. 11. Having spent a few days working with the software editor, I now see why Mike said that he actually prefers to edit from the front panel. I have a lot of issues here, but let me start with two suggestions. First, you need numeric entry of values to minimize mousing around with virtual "knobs." Second, there is way too much scrolling. Different areas of the synth (filter, amp, etc) should have their own tabbed pages. And BTW, I can't think of another piece of modern software where I literally have to quit every other application for it to work correctly. But I get that this is a 1.0 release. Thanks for listening. Again, suggestions welcome.

I actually have a few questions about this. 1. It would seem, however, that I can only edit the Tone in Z1. In other words, if I have a SS that uses 4 different Tones, it's the Tone in Z1 that gets edited when I choose Edit > Tone. So if I need to make a change to the Tone in Z2, for example, I need to load that Tone into Z1 of some other SS, edit it, and then load it into Z2 of the original SS I was editing. Is that correct? 2. Let's say I've got a SS that's using a single Tone in Z1, and let's say that I edit that Tone. You're saying that unless I plan on using that Tone in other SS I really don't need to make a point to save it independently--the changes to the Tone will be saved along with the SS. (This explains why we are able to download Stage Settings and not worry about also downloading the Tones associated with it--since they are saved as part of the SS). But here's what I'm not clear about: suppose I *do* save the edited Tone separately; and suppose that this tone is used in multiple Stage Settings. Now, if I call up one of those Stage Settings and use Edit > Tone to modify the Tone (that is shared), when I save the Tone, will those changes be immediately reflected in *all* of the Stage Settings that have that Tone in common? Or do I need to call up each of them and reselect the (newly modified) Tone so that they all are up to date with the most recent modifications of that Tone? 3. Also, if the Stage Setting is storing changes to a Tone, where are those changes held? In other words, there is obviously a limit to the unit's storage capacity: X number of Stage Settings, X number of Tones. So does the Tone data saved with a SS take up Tone memory, or is it in addition to Tone memory (i.e. it just counts as part of the SS data)?

Great suggestion, Brad. Thanks!

Mike, when I go into Edit > Tone I can't find anything like a tracking parameter under either Amp or Filter. Are you sure it's there in 1.0?

That's a big help, Mike; I'll give the Modern Grand preset a try. I've been waiting to get deeper into preset programming until the Mac editor is released, but at least now I know where to look and what I'm looking for if I decide that I do need to adjust the scaling. And having the second break point should definitely allow me to tweak the piano to fit my needs and playing style perfectly. Thanks!

This was a small venue, no PA, so I was just using my Hartke KM200 as I often do in such situations. This is not an EQ issue, Mike; it's not a question of the upper register not being bright enough. It's strictly a level/balance issue. And it's not surprising that in a nice, quiet home environment this would not be as apparent. But just to compare, this morning I set up my 5S right next to my Fantom X8 and my Kawai KG2S acoustic. As I play upward from middle C on these three instruments, there is no question but that the 5S trails off considerably more than the other 2 (noticeably so). Now, don't get me wrong: the *sound* of the 5S piano is competitive (otherwise I wouldn't have bought it). There's nothing lacking in the quality of the instrument's upper register; it just doesn't project as well as either my real grand or my Fantom (and BTW, I'm listening to the Fantom through the same Hartke amp with the same EQ settings as the 5S). So again, most synths have a keyboard scaling parameter that makes it possible to "tip" the relative loudness of an instrument around a center point. Does such a parameter exist in the 5S? If so, this should be an easy tweak . . . or maybe there's another way to accomplish what I'm after?