IanB Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 This is what my CT6500 has as Brass Ensemble 1: CT6500_BrassEns1.syx 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYoung Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 Just imported the sysex file into virtual CZ and it sounds identical to the vstpreset I have. Played side by side. Curious. Comparing the data in your image to that of the virtual CZ some of it I can't work out... What do the white and green boxes represent in the DC01 DC02 DCW1 DCW2 DCA1 DCA2 boxes? The Virtual CZ has it as this... Can you you see any difference from the Virtual CZ images and yours? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanB Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 8 minutes ago, NYoung said: What do the white and green boxes represent in the DC01 DC02 DCW1 DCW2 DCA1 DCA2 boxes? Oh righty, white are active and green is the Sustain point, so the last white box is the last meaningful envelope parameter i.e. the final release. Level is the top row and rate is the bottom row. Edit: I've just noticed there's a DCW value of -5 there (whut?) so it looks like I have another bug. Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYoung Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 Okay so am I right in thinking in Vitual CZ Pitch Env is DCO1, DCW Env is DCW1 and AMP Env is DCA1 in your Patch Editor. If so levels don't seem to correspond and if I change them to match then the sound alters significantly. Left alone it sounds the same... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYoung Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 I think its the other way around top row in yours is rate and bottom row is level that corresponds.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYoung Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 And they are identical. So the sound on the CT6500 is identical to the sound I have here but it musn't be the same as the Brass Ens 1 (Sound 00) on the CZ230s, as the sound in Pianokeyjoe's video is not the same... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianokeyjoe Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 1 hour ago, NYoung said: And they are identical. So the sound on the CT6500 is identical to the sound I have here but it musn't be the same as the Brass Ens 1 (Sound 00) on the CZ230s, as the sound in Pianokeyjoe's video is not the same... Hi guys, this is strange.. the computer software is not being able to extract all the parameters correct. Sound 00 on the CZ230S, is the same sound on my CT6500 Brass Ens 1. That same sound is called synth brass on the CZ1 internal bank sounds, and it is also on the CZ3000/5000 preset bank A2? The CZ101 and CZ1000(same synth to each other)does not have this sound as a preset or internal sound. I had to make it, on those 2 keyboards. The sound IS also on the Casio SK1. In the software, I believe you need to change the pitch or octave of LINE 1+(DCO2)down, so a negative value to correspond with a full lower octave. The sound 00 has a slight "DETUNE" to it as well which gives you that full thick sound. @IanB can you record your Brass Ens 1 sound on audio here? And lastly, I played my CT6500, and Brass Ens 1 IS the sound I like that so far no software synth emulates because when I hit the SELECT button to light up, Brass Ens 2(the sound that Nyoung uploaded here), is what I get as the normal octave mixed brass. I.E. it is not a mixed normal octave DCO1 with low octave DCO2 but both DCOs tuned the same octave but slightly detuned. Now, I played on the Brass Ens 2 sound on the CT6500 which will correspond to 01 preset on the CZ230S, but I pressed the C1 key together with the C2 key and BOOM! Same sound as Brass Ens 1/ preset 00 on the CZ230S! From what I gather from the structure of the synth engine for the CZ keyboards, is that there are in reality 4(FOUR)oscillators/voices/operators, what have you. DCO1 is actually DCO1A +DCO1B and DCO2 is actually DCO2A + DCO2B. Or something to that effect. Why? Because you can LAYER DCO1 with DCO1 to give you a thick sound when you DETUNE it, or you can MIX DCO1 with DCO2 and detune it. Mind you, I am working off my memory here from when I had a CZ101/1000 and had to program that Brass Ens 1 sound I like since it was not a option inside the CZ101/1000 presets or internals. The higher models have 8 voices though, and you get MORE options to layer and mix DCOs. Casio calls these layers LINES. The CZ101 has only 4 voices so no additional layering or mixing is possible like with say the CT6500/CZ1/CZ2000S/CZ3000/CZ5000.. These Casios are a bit more complex than most gave them credit for in the past eh? So yeah, the software may not be capable of the strange goings on, of the original synth engine.. YET. It is a matter of deciphering the layout and structure of the.. wait for it.. ALGORITHMS of the original hardware! LOL! That term was used alot for YAMAHA DX and other FM synths in their line up! Casio VZ would be more in your face about the true FM nature of the "PHASE DISTORTION" sound source. I think there was a Yamaha vs Casio legal dispute over that when the Cosmo Synths where about to come out.. I read it somewhere I swear! lol! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYoung Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 I think I agree with you. Strange that the Sysex file from the CT6500 sounds the same as the CZ230s virtual sound. I've tried tweaking it again but it really doesn't sound the same. I suspect there is something more going on than just adding a lower octave... I shall compare the three again later... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianokeyjoe Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 Yeah.. I was afraid of that(something going on in hardware that does NOT translate in software). I have always used this sound preset as the "universal Casio CZ tone standard" for said virtual synths and even for other keyboards that claim to do some form of phase distortion. BTW, the VZ1 does NOT sound the same as the CZ series and that Brass sound is NOT found on the preset ROM or RAM internal banks of the VZ. The CZ seems to be one of those keyboards that has a complex envelope generator we all drooled and fantasized about in the 80s. Yeah we need some new old stock parts for these keyboards lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanB Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 @NYoung I put a lot of time into making sure I had the mapping of display values to internal values correct; there is a pdf on the internet of the formulas used inside the Casio but I found that to be incorrect. It's possible that Virtual CZ is not mapping the values correctly. Due to a recent bug report here on the forum I had that user with his real CZ check the values and he seemed to find everything to be correct (the user value in VZV-CZ was the same as the value shown on the CZ front panel display), so it may be the plugin has the formulas wrong. Basically the 0-99 mapping for every parameter is mapped differently to the 0-127 in the Sysex. Still, when I get the chance I'll go through my software VZV-CZ and check everything again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYoung Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 While at home yesterday I compared the Virtual CZ Brass Ens 1 sound with that of my CZ-230s synth and aside from the decay missing (the sound just stops dry on the virtual vst preset) it is exactly the same sound as the Brass Ens 1 on my CZ-230s. No bottom octave at all, all the harmonics are present. Not even a slight change in sound. Note for note it is identical. Not sure what is going on with Pianokeyjoe's CZ. Did Casio ever make changes to sounds without notification? Could there be two version of the CZ230s out there? You do often see disclaimers in products stating changes can be made without notification... I could check my CZ manual to see if there is such a disclaimer... Could it need a reset? Power on while holding the orange C button? Other than that I am 100% sure that my CZ, which has been reset, is the same sound as the virtual version. The only differences I've spotted on other CZ-230s sounds and their Virtual equivalents is the decay. Most noticeable on the Miracle (98) sound, Magical Wind (13), but these can be easily tweaked to match. The bank of CZ230s sounds from the link I gave are not my own. I found them on another forum and assumed they were obtained through sysex from an original CZ230s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYoung Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 In fact I found the original source of the files from the Vitual CZ creator himself Oli Larkin. http://www.olilarkin.co.uk/index.php?p=virtualcz You will find them, at the bottom of this page labelled under downloads... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianokeyjoe Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 Ole Righty then! I finally hooked up my Casio CT6500 to my laptop to record the Brass Ens 1 sound I have been ranting and raving about that is also Preset 00 on the CZ230S. This is an excerpt of me playing all the C notes from first to last C keys. Then I play some musical bits just for fun. The sound heard is what I can not find mimicked on any of the Soft synths that claim to be Casio CZ/PD synths. Now alas, you guys have access to pretty much the same hardware as me so it should not be so hard to find this sound and try to remake it but I do understand that again, software may miss some internal hardware trickery that makes the more complex or thicker sound presets. Then again.. Software can do things hardware of that era could not soo.. here we go! Casio_CZ230S_Brass_Ens_00.mp3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianokeyjoe Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 And lastly, here is Brass Ens preset 01 of the CZ230S, which is the sound you hear when you turn on a CZ101. On the CZ230S this one is Brass Ens 2 or preset 01 on the LCD screen. This sound IS mimicked on software.. The first one is not.. Casio_CZ230S_Brass_Ens_01.mp3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanB Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 *Bump* haha Fixing a VZV CZ bug reported by a CZ5000 owner, I went back to this Brass Ensemble malarkey and finally found my error; the preset on CZ synths is their Preset 01, literally the first one. It's Brass Ensemble *2* on the CT6500, which is patch number 24 (with 1 based counting). The sysex file I posted at the top of this page is for CT6500 patch number 02, which is the first Brass sound- so it's a completely different patch. I also looked again at that weird -5 rate value in DCW1 step 4 and can't make any sense of it; it's coming from the CT6500 as 129 decimal, which is an illegal value, so I'm guessing it's some kind of bug in the ROM. Since it doesn't happen on any of the other presets I've just kludged it out. So anyway to reiterate, @pianokeyjoe's much loved patch is the first patch on a CZ and patch 25 on a CT6500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanB Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 Also @pianokeyjoecan you help me by explaining to me (as I don't have one) how many patches a CZ230S has, which ones are user programmable and how are they recalled (are they banked or just a list of numbers from 1 to X)? Cheers mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianokeyjoe Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 Hi @IanBBeen a minute since we spoke wow lol! What is Bump mean in this context? Anyway, wow. The Brass Ens sound found on the various CZ syntsh(except CZ101/1000- no preset for that sound), is the Casio SK1 Brass Ens sound. Has that lowered octave on one of the layers, and a slight detune as well. Seriously it is 00 on the CZ230S as per the video and per my memory when I used to have that synth back when I was still in my 20s. I am almost 50 now and sadly I do not have the CZ230s to play with so I can not corroborate those values and answer your questions about that model beyond what I have state. The CT6500 midi in program change number for that Brass Ens sound I love is patch 25?? Lol! Casio Casio. what have you done? 😛 . Now while I can not do much about the CZ230s I can whip out the CT6500 as it is within reach and plug it in again and record with it and also try to find out the patch numbers via midi on my PC with the midi sport 1x1 interface and see whats what. Again I do not use windows 10 but Linux but that should not matter for my simple tests. I will get back on this soon! Great to hear from you again! Love these classic Casio chats. Cheers! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanB Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 Sorry @pianokeyjoe, I thought you have a CZ230S. No worries. On the CT6500 it's the second preset from the left with "Select" lit up. I've verified it's identical to CZ patch 00 thanks to my VZV-CZ bug reporter who has a CZ5000 (lucky devil). And yes it's great to be chatting old synths again! "Bump" just refers to when one forces an old forum thread to appear at the top of the forum again by posting to it, so it is "bumped up to the top". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chas Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, IanB said: can you help me by explaining to me (as I don't have one) how many patches a CZ230S has, which ones are user programmable and how are they recalled (are they banked or just a list of numbers from 1 to X)? Cheers mate. I'm going by what I've read so take it with a pinch of salt. However, to answer your questions: IIRC, the CZ230S has 100 slots, of which 96 are factory preset only and the last 4 can have user patches. But those last 4 can only be programmed via SYSEX over MIDI - there is no way to program patches via the 230S's front panel. As for selecting patches, unlike the other CZs that use banks and numbers, the 230S just uses a number pad from 0 to 9 (see pic). If you can download the user guide from somewhere you should be able to double check and confirm the above. Hope this helps! Edited May 29, 2022 by Chas 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianokeyjoe Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 (edited) Looking at the number pad it makes sense the CZ230S uses numbers 00 to 99. And that would translate to program change 00 to 99 on any midi controller or software that uses the traditional numbering scheme of 0-9 as the digits and NOT the 1-8 number scheme of old Roland or old Korg. or old Kawai. @IanBThankyou for letting me know. Oh I wish I had the CZ230s. I almost did recently in an ebay auction but more pressing things came up that I had to use the money on.. It went a little high anyways so no loss there. I too own the CZ5000 and 3000. They are just impossibly buried under boxes of other keyboards in my future studio room being used as a temp storage facility while I remodel the house. Edited May 29, 2022 by pianokeyjoe adding more info. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanB Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 @Chasthanks, I've also found an online manual and that seems to agree. Strikingly the manual for the 230 at least states explicitly it can be sysex programmed- but then gives no further useful information about how. A little better than the 6500 which is positively shy about its sysex capabilities! It's a bit of an oddball, but then Casio had a habit of oddball keyboards! @pianokeyjoemake sure they don't get crushed under the pile! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSTN Posted April 12, 2023 Share Posted April 12, 2023 Hi Does anyone have available or know where I can get the grey number ‘1’ button from the rhythm section of the cz230s? I’ve been hunting for a while and don’t really want to buy a whole unit just to get the button thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 A missing plastic button can be replaced by e.g. a rectangular piece of blister plastic (for the rim) with a square piece of plastic or even wood or a shaped (carved) hotglue blob on top. For my KX-101 I replaced a missing cassette deck button with a folded sheetmetal piece and hotglue(?) underneath (be careful not to shortcircuit if using metal). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianokeyjoe Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 On 4/12/2023 at 10:34 AM, JSTN said: Hi Does anyone have available or know where I can get the grey number ‘1’ button from the rhythm section of the cz230s? I’ve been hunting for a while and don’t really want to buy a whole unit just to get the button thanks You will need to find a listing on eBay or syntaur for those buttons. Sadly the whole keyboard is impossibly expensive even broken so you may not find a solution anymore in 2023 with the synthflation going on right now. Fleamarkets and pawnshops. thriftstores and online markets outside eBay is your only option for a lower reasonable price for a parts board or dare I say, a complete working one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 (edited) On eBay average used keyboard prices seem to fluctuate by factor 4 or such every few months without logical explanation. This seems the same ripoff scheme madness like with car fuel prices at petrol stations (only worse), hence only patience (or asking the vendor if moonpriced) may help to escape this tulip mania. You may also try to 3D print a missing knob or button. Edited May 2, 2023 by CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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