choosing the keys for a medley

[Cameron MacKenzie]

My basic question: Is there a rule of thumb for choosing the keys for the components of a medley? I've never heard anything about this.

 

The first example that comes to my mind is from the Beatles. John wrote the "I read the news today / oh boy" bit that starts out 'A Day in the Life.' Paul met up with John and told John he had a song he had been working on, which starts out, "Woke up / got out of bed / dragged a comb across my head." They decided to weld the two together into one track for their album, effectively producing a medley of two songs. My songbook scores both of them in G, but just statistically speaking, it's likely that when the two fellows got together with their songs-in-progress, they would have been in different keys. So maybe this is suggesting that you should record both (or all in the case of more than two songs being joined together) in the same key.

 

Complicating my example above is the fact that a lot of Paul's notes are unnatural to G, but natural to E. I don't know how relevant that is to my question, though.

 

A point against matching keys would be that transitioning to a different key helps the listener identify where the different songs are welded together. But I don't have a feel for whether that is desirable, or whether one should keep things as seamless as possible by matching keys.

 

Maybe you know a rule of thumb for this, or maybe you can point me to some examples of medleys I can find at some website such as YouTube. I have some specific songs in mind that I might try to do as a medley, with just a verse and not much more taken from any given song.

[Display Name]

Not really sure I understand the exact question you are asking, but the answer to EVERYTHING musically is: If it sounds good, it IS good. There are no rules beyond that. The best advice I can give is to experiment, record, listen and revise and most of all, have fun with it.  

[Cameron MacKenzie]

I can't argue with the "if it sounds good it is good argument." But to flesh out my original post, I thought there might be a rule like, "Stay close on the circle of fifths." For instance, it might clash if one piece is in D and the other is in A flat.

 

I've read that producers back in the days of the LP album would order tracks to avoid incompatible keys for successive songs. I figure the same thing would apply to a medley, though I am not sure what makes for the incompatibility-- the circle of fifths thing being my best guess as to that.

[XW-Addict]

I've asked myself  the same thing for a long time about playing in a certain key and then progress from that within a certain scale.

I've tried to learn if there some music theory behind that and it kinda complicated if you're new to that stuf.

 

Watched endless video deconstruction from pop to classic and it all comes down how much of a key progress into another to and

for my understanding I've gotten was from the deconstruction video off the song Happy the chord progress shows how part of a

chord or note groups could fit into another. 

 

Its a bit out of my knowledge space the deconstruction video were very exemplary to have an idea of them. 

[Cameron MacKenzie]

3 hours ago, XW-Addict said:

the chord progress shows how part of a chord or note groups could fit into another. 

 

That does indeed sound like the basic idea behind the circle of fifths. So maybe I am onto something.

[Jokeyman123]

Cameron-many times the choice comes down to key signatures that best fit a singer's vocal range, plus key signatures easier on open string instruments (E, D, G, A) are not necessarily the best created on keyboards-those who write on keyboards may pick keys that physically fall better on the keys-although technically a keyboard/guitar player is supposed to be adept at any key signature-in common practice this doesn't always work! Another common trick-shifting from the major key to it's relative minor-either within a song, or in adjoining songs. Example, key of c major to key of a minor and this works in all keys.

 

Tthen again, when writing arrangements for specific brass or woodwind parts, there are other key signatures players prefer.

 

Circle of fifths ar commonly used within a song to create a sense of movement, rather than a sense of "sitting on" a chord or chord progression. If I play a common ii-vi-v-i progression in the key of C this would be d minor, a minor, g major c major) this creates a cyclic or looping effect, then if say on the bridge I switch to a circle of fifths instead- c to g to d etc all the way through back to c, this creates a different effect and is used from Bach's time to the most advancd jazz players today.

 

This isn't answering your medley question. Keep in mind these ideas are open to interpretation, I am speaking very generally only from my experience which is admittedly limited.  Medleys I've played and created, I generally tend to stay close to whatever key signature i begin with- usually going up or down only a step or half step. if you study many medley arrangements and listen to enough bands, you can hear this to be a common practice, again as backup to a vocalist this keeps several songs in a medley within the singer's range, and this is not a hard and fast rule, only what I have done working with vocalists.

 

If you are not constrained to vocalist arrangements-the further "out" you go from the original key, the more dramatic effect. One example-John Coltrane as illustrated in "Giant Steps" was experimenting with the "cycle of thirds"! Meaning he would go from the key of say C to Eb or E, to G or G# etc-in other words, creating another cyclic key shift that sounds much different than the cycle of fifths or fourths. Many jazz players messed around with this (and still do)-and often will shift to the flatted fifth key, say from C major to F# major or E major to Bb major (or minor) because these intervals are harmonically dissonant, so will sound quite different from each other and yet are related in a very "jazzy" way.  Miles Davis and other jazz composersexperimented around with key signatures understanding that the same song will sound totally different if only shifted a half-step up or down and exploited this in arrangements, something classical composers knew from way back when. The sky's the limit though, and these concepts are certainly not 'etched in stone'-just some of my experiences working with other demented musicians like myself!

[XW-Addict]

But wait there is more

 

 

[Jokeyman123]

Beautiful playing, thanks XW for posting this. Always admired Chick Corea's techniques and styling-also still studying the great Bill Evans, Keith Jarrett do covers of this same tune, equally beautifully IMO. these are my mentors, among others.

[Cameron MacKenzie]

20 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

I generally tend to stay close to whatever key signature i begin with- usually going up or down only a step or half step.

 

That is pulling me away from my idea of staying tightly clustered on the circle of fifths, since a half step change in keys throws one way over to the other side of the circle.

 

At the risk of being overly pedantic, I ask about your "ii-vi-v-i progression in the key of C this would be d minor, a minor, g major c major)." Is it more standard to make those last two Roman numerals uppercase when it is the major chord? ...  ii-vi-V-I. ...  I thought that was the way music theorists distinguish major from minor in Roman numerals, though I've never taken a class in that kind of thing and may be wrong. 

[XW-Addict]

What if the chords doesn't follow the standard rule within the medley and doesn't follow the fifth,

but rather the chord specific to the high of the singing song being sung by.

Chords progression are different for songs and instrumental one of the reason I have a hard time 

follow key if to improvise or get the tune right.  

[Joe Muscara]

16 hours ago, Cameron MacKenzie said:

At the risk of being overly pedantic, I ask about your "ii-vi-v-i progression in the key of C this would be d minor, a minor, g major c major)." Is it more standard to make those last two Roman numerals uppercase when it is the major chord? ...  ii-vi-V-I. ...  I thought that was the way music theorists distinguish major from minor in Roman numerals, though I've never taken a class in that kind of thing and may be wrong. 

Yes, that is correct! However, if you're playing seventh chords, the progression is Dmin7, Amin7, G7 [aka G dominant 7] CMaj7. You could also substitute D7 and A7 (IOW, make the thirds major instead of minor). These would then be secondary dominants since they are not dominant in the key of C. G7 is the only dominant in the key, but D is a fifth above A, and A is a fifth above G.

 

 

[Trent]

On April 30, 2016 at 8:43 PM, Scott Hamlin said:

 If it sounds good, it IS good. There are no rules beyond that. The best advice I can give is to experiment, record, listen and revise and most of all, have fun with it.  

Cameron, that and the Beatles didn't read music.  Especially when playing live. At practices, Paul might noodle on his bass and come up with nice run; then the others would start to add their thing; linking notes and chords together and singing without reference to the circle of fifths. 

 

As you, I like some theory too as I'm learning piano pieces, but some of the greatest musicians gel, jam, and get into the groove when the music springs up from the soul and takes life.  

 

http://www.ukuleleyes.com/issues/vol8/no3/feature.htm

 

"The Music Lesson" by Victor Wooten is one such example.  

 

http://www.amazon.com/Music-Lesson-Spiritual-Search-Through/dp/0425220931

 

also,

 

[Jokeyman123]

I agree with both pointd of view-let your ears be your guide, but knowing some theory never hurts. Remember how much George Martin added to many of the Beatles recordings, he knew they were genuises, and he helped guide them with the knowledge he possessed regarding arranging-he was the musical head of the BBC at the time.

 

Many musicians like to learn the "rules' so they can break them.

 

One other cool trick I learned from my older jazz mentors-when improvising live, the "leader" whoever that was at the time!-would use a very simple technique for guiding improv sessions. Hands down plus the number of fingers extended showed how many flats in the key signature-what key to play in. Hands up plus finger numbers did the same for sharps. so if I held 2 fingers up, this would be the key of D major-2 sharps. If I held 2 fingers pointing down, we are playing in the key of Bb major-2 flats B and E. This would only be for sessions that were already in progress. In other words, you would already know whether you were in minor or major to begin with. Since most jazz players played using every conceivable scale, major, minor, modal-it almost didn't matter whether it was major or minor anyway, except for the "head" of the tune, the strictly written theme or melody that would be the basis for "blowing". And of course this meant you bettr know your key signatures. The old school guys wouldn't even let you play if they thought you didn't know "sh**" unless you were a pretty gifted player. You would be surprised how many "pop" musicians who became successful with simple 2-3 chord songs actually were very knowledgable regarding theory-and this was before the Internet. Kenny Rogers was a jazz session musician before he became a pop success for example. I learned theory way before i disappeared into obscurity.