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Piano sounds continued


Rocknrolldentist

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Hello- This is a topic I read about from another user.  I've scrolled through all of the piano sounds--I've even downloaded almost all of the extra piano sounds, and all of them sound bell-like or clangy. I went to guitar center and tried different amps (QSC;EV-etc) and this didnt solve the problem.  So I plugged in my 20 year old Roland Rhodes MK-60 into my studio monitors--and no bellish sound. All of the other voices on the privia sound GREAT--but I cant get a good piano sound. The problem seems to originate from the way the sample was made reproducing the way the hammers hit the strings in the piano?! I REALLY DON'T want to look for another keyboard but I really need an authentic sounding piano.  Is there some way to modify this sound or is there something wrong with my privia or something else.  Please give me some input on this, as it is driving me bonkers and my music is very important to me.  Thanks so much!!

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Hi, the only piano sound I've found that doesn't have the "bell like" tone is the Hex Layer Hex P: 20 Mf Piano (but it's a very thin sound).  Like you, I have tried loads of options and I find that using really poor quality speakers and headphones, disguises the bell tone.

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Hi  Rocknrolldentist. Please also see the reply I placed on PX-5S Acoustic Piano Sounds today. I hope that someone from Casio reads these posts, which I’m sure they do. I would like to say that it would be nice if somehow a special “firmware” update could be provided for people like us, which I would be quite willing to pay for. The firmware would be for some acoustic pianos to have the same sample tone quality from the right half of the keyboard and let it continue down past F4 (either all the way down to C-, or at least down as far as A3. Casio know there is a change in tone from E4 downwards on Acoustic Pianos (and from Eb4 downwards on Hex P: 020 Mf Piano) and a visible waveform change. OK Casio, can it be done and how much will it cost me?

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HGi Stuarth25--I agree.  I'm hoping BradMZ or one of the experts will read this and help with the problem. Can someone of the experts, any of you folks, help with this probTHE PRIVIA IS AN EXCELLENT INSTRUMENT EXCEPT FOR THE POPPY/BELL-LIKE SOUND THE PIANO SOUNDS MAKE. I'D BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO PAY TO GET A SMOOTHER, FULLER. LESS CLANGY PIANO SOUND.  CAN THIS BE DONE?

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For piano I use the Concert Grand (0-0).  I run the 5s through a small mixer into a Space Station V3.  The sound is very close to a real piano with no "bell tones".  The only "bell tones" I get are on some of the EPs and those are not objectionable.  Could someone post an example of the "bell tones"?  I'm just not hearing them.

 

 

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I have no idea what bell tones they are talking about. The Privia sounds similar to tons of other pianos I have on other instruments. IMO the base sample will not be changed, so the only thing to do is get a different keyboard.

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On the Korg forum, someone was complaining about a "bell tone". Turned out it was the fact that the highest notes were not damped. He called it a "bell tone". I know that's not what the OP is talking about. Maybe the hammer attack???? 

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I don't hear this in over-abundance either-on the PX350 which is the same acoustic piano sample set as the PX5s. I've A-B'ed many digital pianos over many years and played many acoustics, uprights, grands consoles good and bad. Definition of a bell tone:

 

"To obtain this effect on the piano, the player reaches inside the instrument with one hand to touch the string while playing the keyboard with the other. I don’t think the technique was used at the time when Camille Saint-Saëns was composing. A more likely explanation has been suggested by Anders Askenfelt, the piano acoustics expert at KTH in Stockholm. A carefully judged and forceful accent on the relevant note gives a sound rich in upper “harmonics.” Depressing the sustaining pedal just before the note is struck allows sympathetic vibrations from unstruck strings to contribute to the mix of high- frequency components, which are, in fact, slightly inharmonic. The high- frequency components decay faster than the lower frequencies, and the resulting sound has some similarity to that of a struck bell." (Not my quotes)

 

It is my understanding and performance experience that an acoustic piano's ability to create bell tones through complex harmonic interactions (whew-chew on that one, jellybeaners!) :blah:   has everything to do with it's individual sound-why a Bechstein might sound darker than a Yamaha etc. (not necessarily an accurate comparison just an example) So a certain bell tone quality in the upper and middle registers would seem to be a characteristic of an acoustic piano and would be desirable provided it is not excessive. I just do not hear an excessive bell tone quality, at least not from my PX-350. Even my older PX575 Privia which has a slightly less harmonic rich content than the 350 and less harmonic resonance in the upper register certainly does not sound bell-like-unless of course I layer it with a bell sound!

 

Many acoustic pianos sound relatively dull to me after playing almost any digital including the Casios, and this IMO is due partially to the acoustic environments I've played in-if my ears were mashed to the soundboard it might sound less dull! Perhaps this is why many players will have the perception that there is too excessive a bell tone quality. Especially due to the exacting clarity of listening with close-field monitors or quality headsets, any sound "anomaly" which might not be so noticeable with an acoustic, could be glaringly obvious in our much-improved soundfields. That being said, I can play the PX Priviias for quite awhile without "ear fatigue", something that has not always been true with other digital pianos. Maybe I should have been playing with my hands on the piano rather than my ears. :banghead:       :beer:

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Hello everyone-- I'm glad my "topic" has gotten this much response. I, too, have a lot of experience with pianos--I've playing for approximately 55 years and have played many keyboards--(and no, the dentist drill has not affected my ears)..... Let me clarify my position--and don't get me wrong, I love my privia--it's just the piano sounds Ihave a problem with. Maybe a "bell-tone" is not the best description.  Let me see if I can do better--- The notes above middle C have a clangy sound--a bit metallic--possibly an agressive attack that can't be removed via adjustment--thus, bell-like (albeit a muted bell).... i've played the keyboard for other musicians and they all hear it---Is it possible it's a defect in my keyboard because it ain't my ears!! Anyone else have some explanation as I am earnestly trying to solve this issue without getting another keyboard. Thanks!!

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Before you write us oldies off, please all try this experiment to show what we mean.  Select a basic acoustic piano sound (the rock piano shows this best) and hit note G4 (in the centre of the keyboard) quite hard, then turn the pitch wheel down (if set to default) and hit G4 again, you will hear F4. Now hit G4 followed by hitting F4 and it should sound identical to when we used the pitch wheel and IT DOES. Next, follow the same routine, starting at F4.  You will hear Eb4 with the pitch wheel, so when you press Eb4, it should sound identical, but IT DOESN’T.  It has a different (brighter) tonal quality. This is the sound we talk of.

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Over 2500 members in the PX-5s facebook group and we have never heard complaints like those here.  It's a 9 foot concert grand piano.  It's designed to sound the way it sounds.  We have offered options to those who don't like the stock sounds, yet the complaints continue.  The options are install other sounds from the download section, create your own or find another sound source like a VST, other keyboard or sound module. 

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Belltone....good one Ted!!!! I HEAR YA!!!!! Maybe not. :o And I guess stuarth25 now I understand-you are hearing the split points in the piano samples. One of the most difficult parts of duplicating the even response of an acoustic anything-having created many sounds this way from scratch with older and newer sampling boards and computers, I can hear what you are saying, but the Casio is certainly less noticeable in this regard than many other digitals I have played. Creating a perfectly balanced action and perfect dynamic response across 88 keys along with absolute timbre balance is the holy grail for a piano, but is also the reason why some who can, will invest 50-100,000 plus for a perfectly regulated and balanced grand. It is incredible to me that 1) Casio could come this close at this point and 2) I can carry it without renting a piano dolly, a moving company or getting (another) hernia. And still have time for a quick one before the gig. Well, here's a go!  :banana: :beer:

 

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Hi to all involved in this issue--The last thing Stuart or I want to do is to get anyone angry...not necessary--we obviously like our privias but have come across a problem that we're looking to solve. I described in pretty well--the word "Bell-tones" may not be appropriate but the piano sounds,(on my unit) do sound clangy, metallic,or deep on the attack. I've downloaded many of the sounds available and they all have this quality--the piano sample, on my unit, sounds as if the hammers on the piano were striking the keys in a sharp, tinny, way--This is NOT to malign casio--I love the website, all of the other sounds, the layering, the stage setting buttons etc. I wish I could find a store that carries them so I could check out another unit. I may buy another one (from sweetwater) just to compare and make sure its not something unique to my privia. But in the meantime, lets all be at peace and keep trying to help each other in a positive way. Thanks to everyone.....

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I use a PX 560 which I understand has the same piano samplings as the PX-5S.  I've noticed that I never really know what the exact sound will be until I'm set up in a given room.  i.e. When in my home office, (15'X15')  I make certain adjustments and eventual concessions for the sound, particularly in the upper range.  However, when in our family room (25'X28' with a vaulted ceiling) the sound is wonderful with virtually no adjustments.  What's interesting is that I have a 6' acoustic grand piano with a warm full sound in this same room.  Even with all the available adjustments, I am unable to get the Casio to sound like the grand in this room.  Each has a sound of it's own and we like them both.  The Casio provides something the grand doesn't;  That is the opportunity to discover and develop your creative side by adding enhancements not possible with the grand.  With the grand I have reached limitations; With the Casio the door is wide open.   I sometimes play a venue in a large community room.  Getting the sound right in this room has been an ongoing challenge.  I use a Roland Cube here and have tried moving to different spots and adjusting almost everything adjustable.  I'm shooting for my family room sound but haven't got it yet.  It's just my opinion but I feel that where the instrument is placed can account for a perceived negative sound.  Also, it has been my experience with the Casio piano samplings, the fewer the adjustments the better.  Thank you.                

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Thanks Francis--I tried an experiment and played my privia, the sampled piano on the sk-1, my Rhodes mk-60, and an acoustic piano--recorded them all on a tascam recorder, made a cd and played them back. You can definitely here the difference in the casio--a bit more hollow, and clangy (I dare not say bell like)...I will be searching for answers for this issue and love the feedback of the casio community. I did find an excellent download from the download section--I believe it is the PA concert grand--sounds better than anything else!

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Honestly, the only thing you can do is work with the master effect EQ or DSP EQ, nothing else will really change the character of the piano for you since I guess you are hearing something in the original samples. Maybe you are hearing the sample of the attack but "bell like" is not what I would describe it. 

I always thought that Roland keyboards have a harsh attack and definitely a 2 layer attack sound - one mellow, the other harsh and hard. Kurzweil, much more muted and smoother - I think you would like the Kurzweil.

The Korg Kronos has tons of acoustic pianos and you would love this keyboard - but it is not cheap or light.

The Yamaha pianos would be too bright for you - the exception would be the S90ES or the very latest Motif - but neither is light or cheap.

I would definitely purchase a keyboard that can take new samples - this would mean something like the Kronos, Nord stage or Motif. That way you are not limited to one piano sample.

 

I will also say, NONE of them sound like sitting at a real piano - this is because they are all sampled close to the strings. 

Every single one of the keyboards have split points and it seems every model has at least one person that can hear the split points or complain about a sample that is out of tune, or has an attack or the release is not natural etc....

 

At this point, I believe the only solution might be software based. There are a number of software modeled pianos which are entirely smooth up and down the range but then you need to carry a computer around.

https://www.pianoteq.com

 

Good luck in your search.

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I took a listen to the raw waves in HEX tone mode. If you are really talking split points, then there is nothing you can do. I hear that split you talk about and it's in the multi-sample. Maybe you could split and pitch down a layer to mask the split point, but the bigger problem is that you need to redo all the velocity layers in the HEX tone. Maybe you can start with another HEX tone already done but it's a heck of a lot of work and what seems interesting to me is that both of you guys are using the Rock piano setting which is the most clangy piano in the bunch and sounds to me like exactly the sound you do not want to use.

 

I guess I would take the F4 to C5 and pitch that down in another layer of the hex tone and that will make it darker but it might sound obvious.

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