Piano sounds continued

[SonnyDaye]

Amen!

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Aron said:

The real truth is this entire thread is as old as samplers. Think about it. Every note needs to be sampled and played back - in the PX-5S case they are obviously not since you can hear split points. OK, lets move on. Keys are played to record a piano note - now is there a robot playing the piano? I hope so because if you think about it, even a minute thing such as a key being pressed a little harder will cause the timbre to be brighter. For all we know, the note chosen for the sample note might actually be brighter on the real piano.

If you sat down on the real piano, you might even notice that one note rings out more than another due to sympathetic vibrations or the resonance of the piano.

The piano is imperfect, so the recording is imperfect. Add to the fact that you are not recording every note - so it's imperfect.

 

Now, add the fact that for some people they don't like the sound of the hammers hitting the strings -  it sounds "brassy" or "bell-like".  

To some people this is bothering them - but I would say the majority of people love the piano sound in the PX. You can't please everyone.

 

The samples are fixed in the unit. Casio likes the way it sounds or else they wouldn't have burned the sound in and released the keyboard. 

Every piano has a different sound. When you didn't like the sound of your piano, what did you do before?

 

There is only one real answer. Get a keyboard that sounds the way you want or get another that can load in multiple pianos until you find one that suits you.

Or live with the one you have and deal with it.

 

You/We purchased a killer keyboard at a breakthrough low price. The amazing thing about this keyboard are the concessions made to bring this incredible product out at this low price. Plastic, wall adapter, smaller sample ROM (to offset the high cost of memory), no sequencer, 4 parts instead of 16. Finally, it has one piano sample in there and it is not replaceable. Yes you can try and "alter" it, but you cannot replace the samples. You didn't pay for a keyboard that can replace the piano or other samples - you paid for the PX-5S. Many people find the piano in this keyboard pretty darn amazing - even if you ignore the price.

[XW-Addict]

The biggest plus is its a synthesizer you may synthesize how the piano sounds like by programming the reason I purchase it..

[aron]

It's a synthesizer but a limited one. It is a mostly subtractive synthesizer for the piano/waveforms. That means you can use filters (lowpass/highpass etc) but you cannot "synthesize" a new raw piano waveform in the sense that you have to start with what is there.

Almost every professional keyboard has a way to alter the piano sound by making it brighter, darker etc... But unless you can change the samples, you are limited in what you can do to alter the sound. That's why almost every piano in the PX-5s has that "bell sound" for those people that hear it.

[XW-Addict]

2 hours ago, aron said:

It's a synthesizer but a limited one. It is a mostly subtractive synthesizer for the piano/waveforms. That means you can use filters (lowpass/highpass etc) but you cannot "synthesize" a new raw piano waveform in the sense that you have to start with what is there.

 

 

The synthesis capabilities should be well endowed for the purpose for which PX5S does synthesis and the key basis lays within the hexlayers.

 

This is what makes the PX5S by tuning , tweaking and what not, layer by layer the sound to proximate a concise preferred sound.

 

Its possible to go wildly through the function and do something that sounds nice (* Ive done that in the beginning *) 

but you can also do some concise sound designing and the features to do that are within the PX5S. 

 

Traditional synthesizers piano-ish sounds where replicated with basic  waveforms the simplest basic requirements is 

understanding what to synthesize.

 

Now here is the PX5S with the topnotch AIR engine high quality samples to work with, and synthesis tools to reform 

the sample waves basically anyone should be able to do more with the synthesis feature's and sculpt the sound that is

synthesis. And that is way different then an gigabyte eating sample engine with pre-processed wave forms sure those 

sound nice but you also pay for them.

 

I'm was well aware what the keyboard can do before hand and learn how to solve things to add another addition to the

tonality. Its a light stage piano and the addition of the synth part makes it enjoyable lots more whatever doesn't sound 

to liking the hexlayers could solve that because that is ground not covered to its full potential yet.  

[Rocknrolldentist]

hi aron-- this has been a very interesting study. I was able reach Dave, thanks to you, and am meeting him at his house to further investigate the sound i am looking for-- he is big into casio and kurzweil. Turns out he lives 20 minutes from me. Thanks so much for everything. I may have to purchase a new keyboard, although, besides the piano samples, i love the px. To be continued......

[aron]

>

. Its a light stage piano and the addition of the synth part makes it enjoyable lots more whatever doesn't sound 

to liking the hexlayers could solve that because that is ground not covered to its full potential yet.  

 

I have no idea what you are talking about Look at the hex layer, it is a simple subtractive synthesis style. What ground is not covered, it's a super simple layer.

 

I'm not going to convince you or argue with you about synthesis, you apparently know how to turn a fixed sample into something else, so I'm done with this.

[aron]

>this has been a very interesting study. I was able reach Dave, thanks to you, and am meeting him at his house to further investigate the sound i am looking for

 

GREAT! Good luck and I hope it works out for you!

[XW-Addict]

3 hours ago, Rocknrolldentist said:

hi aron-- this has been a very interesting study. I was able reach Dave, thanks to you, and am meeting him at his house to further investigate the sound i am looking for-- he is big into casio and kurzweil. Turns out he lives 20 minutes from me. Thanks so much for everything. I may have to purchase a new keyboard, although, besides the piano samples, i love the px. To be continued......

 

Lucky  I wouldn't mind a few lessons.

 

(can this thread be locked)

[aron]

Don't lock this thread, I want to hear what Dave Weiser says about what can be done. I do believe that he will be able to do something to improve the problem.

[Choppin]

This may be related:  I dug around and found an old thread regarding a "tinny" sound that seemed to be present after the upgrade to version 1.13 . 

 

 

I remember hearing it specifically through headphones.  I rarely play through headphones anymore and equalize and adjust the sound coming out of my live speakers so I hadn't really thought about the high-end over tones I remember hearing.

 

I don't know if the attached thread adds anything, but it may help validate how one may feel about the sound they are hearing.

 

 

 

[aron]

Rocknrolldentist,

 

Any updates? Did you get together with Dave?

[Rocknrolldentist]

Hey Aron--Yes I had the good fortune of meeting with Dave.  What a genius--he knows the ins and outs of sampling, layering, texture--you name it.  The bottom line is as everyone has said.  Casio chose their samples from a particular piano (that they are not disclosing), which can be tweaked here and there but really can't be changed.  All of the downloads have slight variations but the basic sample remains the same.......Much to "my" dismay, because I love the keyboard, its functionality and all of the other tones, but "I" don't think they did a very good job with the pianos--I've been to the music store and have played the yamaha MOFX8, the Kross Krome and the Kurzweil Forte--all of which have big, rich pianos (among other things). I guess if I want a different piano tone ), a  dog, I'll have to either get used to the "cat" I have or buy a dog. One great thing is that genius Dave has been able to write t\s

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rocknrolldentist]

continued--Dave has been able to write some great stage settings, that I feel are better than the factory ones, and they   are available through him for a nominal fee (worth checking out). Thanks for all of your input over the past months. It's been an adventure....but I'm always looking for new projects.  I'll keep you informed of anything I find out.  Peace.

[aron]

The Casio piano is surely a Steinway. It has to be since it sounds like several recordings of Steinways that I have heard. 

It's interesting that you say that - I find the Motif's piano to be the weakest link and even Yamaha thought so since they "fixed" it in the Montage.

So I gather that you played the PX-5S through the same speakers as the MOX,Kross and Forte? Interesting.

Good luck with the quest.

[Brad Saucier]

I'll put this here one last time.  My PX-5s sounds just like this Model D.  I'm a happy camper because that's a world famous piano and I have yet to find another keyboard or VST that has captured this sound like Casio has.  And that's the last thing I will say on this subject.  Time to move on.

 

 

[aron]

Rocknrolldentist, have you dialed up GrPianoDolce in the layer? That one seems to have less brightness. Does it sound less clangy to you?

[Rocknrolldentist]

Yep-Ive done that--I will say the clangiest note on the whole board is the C above middle C---I can pick that one out in the middle of any song--Oh well, I guess I've been gifted/cursed with very picky ears!!

[Rocknrolldentist]

BradMZ-- You're right on--the piano you posted comes closest to the px! I guess its just a matter of taste.....

[aron]

Interesting about the C above middle C. What about the A above that C. It's brighter and more brassy.

[Rocknrolldentist]

Aron--I'd say anything from about G above middle C to about ther whole next octave falls into my "ear hurting"category.  Unfortunately, this is where one does a lot of playing.  Going to the music store today to test out some other boards.....

[aron]

Please don't forget to check out speakers as well. If you are still using the Roland Keyboard amps - they are absolutely the worst speakers for keyboards ever. They have a midrange hump that really makes exactly those notes you mentioned sound horrible.

Now that you reminded me, I need to put in my rider - no Roland KC amps.

[michaeln2]

19 hours ago, Rocknrolldentist said:

-I've been to the music store and have played the yamaha MOFX8, the Kross Krome and the Kurzweil Forte--all of which have big, rich pianos (among other things). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just goes to show how subjective these things can be, especially when it comes to accoustic piano sounds.  I own the Yamaha MOXF, and although the  accoustic piano's are excellent (IMHO), I find the PX accoustic piano's are better. In fact, out of all the other keyboards & sound modules\tone generators that I own (7 keyboards & 3 tone generators in total) I find the PX accoustic piano's are superior. 

[aron]

That's why I asked about the speakers. The speaker and the instrument are the two most important parts of the tone.

I really, really dislike the Roland KC amps. Terrible tone, terrible response, almost everything is bad about it. I mean, I _can_ play through it IF I totally mangle the tone knobs but they are band..... as in the worse to me.

 

The only piano on the Motif I really liked was the newest XF8 - it had a very good piano. I love the S90ES piano as well. The rest of the motif line - I can deal with it, but I don't like the piano sounds. Heck, I'm not in love with my Kronos pianos either. Although I realize the Kross piano is inferior, for some odd reason it is completely playable on a gig and I have fun with it. 

 

All in all, I like the PX-5S piano - the EP are still in judgement mode! I still need to work on the strings as well..... rrrrrr!

[Rocknrolldentist]

Hi Aron--What kind of amplifier do you recommend?  I can easily trash the KC! I tried PA speakers (ie QVC, EV etc.) and really didn't like them....What say thee?

[aron]

You need to try the QSC or EV live to appreciate how much better it is than the KC. Also if you can, run in stereo. It makes a HUGE difference.

If you run in stereo, you can use the smaller versions 8" etc... They sound great.

I have heard really good things about the Space Station and yes - they demo a CASIO:

 

http://www.keyboardmag.com/combo-amps/1210/we-couldnt-believe-how-much-stage-filling-stereo-sound-this-tiny-combo-amp-puts-out/52338