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Considering buying a PX-5S, need some pedal suggestions


TLc

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So, I've been looking for a keyboard which I could use mostly as a controller for VSTs, also having a good piano-like action. The amount of products catering to this notion seems to be quite little, and I've eventually narrowed it down between the Roland A-88 and the Privia PX-5S (I've also previously considered the Komplete Kontrol S88, which have some really cool features and design, but apparently the touch strips [modulation, pitch] aren't too comfortable and the Fatar action isn't that great), and the Privia PX-5S is usually quoted as having the better hammer action (I'm less interested about the internal sounds, to be honest). I wasn't able to actually test any of these (and my piano skills are currently so-so anyway), and as I'll be ordering it from abroad I really want to get the purchase right.

 

The primitive pedal inputs of the PX-5S seem to be constricting, and I guess I'll need to buy a pedal-to-MIDI adapter (as there are very little MIDI-exporting pedals out there) like the Audiofront MIDI Expression. Now, I want to make a pedal set that includes a soft/sostenuto/half damper and an expression pedal. The soft and sostenuto send on/off messages, so I assume the PX-5S's two inputs should be able to recognize them, but could I program it so? The half damper/expression pedal would go into the PC (if I'll get the Audiofront product; it outputs over USB and I believe the PX-5S can't receive MIDI over USB [or does it?]).

 

Instead of buying tons of separate pedals, I prefer finding a 3-pedal unit from which I could attach the two on/off ones directly to the PX-5S and the half damper to the adapter, and a separate expression pedal in addition. Is there such a unit compatible with the PX-5S? I couldn't find any. And how weird does it feel using a continuous half damper pedal as an expression pedal? Audiofront offers a $49 single-input adapter and then a $119 quad-input one; it's quite expensive, so if I'll get the single one I won't use the half damper AND the expression pedal simultaneously anyway.

 

Thanks in advance.

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5 minutes ago, BradMZ said:

The choice really depends on how deep you will want to go with midi controls.  

Well, I don't know, I have never had such a keyboard. It's most likely I'll only use it to record stuff at home, though, and I believe I'll be more interested in something which I can use to interface with DAW-based instruments. What more, that PX-560 is quite more expensive. Buying the pedal-to-MIDI adapter would prove cheaper.

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Then going back to my above questions...

Can I connect two on/off pedals into the PX-5S and have them as soft and sostenuto?

Is there a 3-pedal (with half damper) unit whose left and middle pedals are compatible with the PX-5S?

 

And just to be sure - can the MIDI over USB data from the MIDI Expression adapter be routed directly into the PX-5S, or can it only receive MIDI data through its MIDI-in? I have an interface (Babyface Pro) through which I can route MIDI back from the PC, though I'm not sure how does that loop work in case I want to listen to my playing from the keyboard while also recording my playing's MIDI data into the DAW. Can I have the MIDI Expression send the pedal's data into the computer, then have the Babyface Pro send it into the PX-5S over a DIN cable, and then output it from the PX-5S to the computer directly over USB or through the Babyface Pro's MIDI-in?

 

Thanks.

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Hello,

 

1. Yes, you can have two switch pedals that control soft and sostenuto.  By default, the grand piano setting has the two pedal controls set to soft and damper, but you could change either one to a sostenuto if you like.
 

2. I'm not aware of any that would work with the px-5s.
 

3.  The USB port should be able to receive any midi data that is transmitted to it.
 

On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 5:32 PM, TLc said:

Can I have the MIDI Expression send the pedal's data into the computer, then have the Babyface Pro send it into the PX-5S over a DIN cable, and then output it from the PX-5S to the computer directly over USB or through the Babyface Pro's MIDI-in?

 

It sounds possible.  I take it the intention is to have the performance (midi wise) of the Px-5s captured on a DAW.  My thought is, you may have to split the initial signal that you want routed back: 1 to the px to control it, and one to the DAW to merge the pedal data with PX-5s performance.

 

On the PX what is physically played on the keyboard can be routed out OR what is input from an external source can be passed through.  There is no dedicated MIDI thru port on the PX-5s so it's an either or situation.  Once midi data is received and it triggers events on the PX, that's where the flow stops; or those events can be passed through.  I don't believe they merge on midi output.  That's why I think you would need to split the pedal signal at the pc level: 1 to the DAW to merge with the MIDI out of the PX and one to the PX to control it (if you want to hear the effect on the px itself).

 

I haven't plugged in an external midi device to the PX for a while but I remember something like this being an issue.  There was no MIDI merge for mixing midi events from the outside with midi events generated from the PX-5s for midi output.  But I might have that wrong.

 

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Hm... Well, I guess that could still work (if the no-merging is truly the case), but as I really have no idea yet how to use such a keyboard: if I want to record the keyboard's internal sound's output into the DAW, how would I do that?

 

And if there's really no pedal set I could make use of, what single on/off, half-damper and expression pedals would you recommend?

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Pretty much any sustain pedal would work.  You could use two KSP100 pedals.  It's a fairly tough, full size, generic sustain pedal (inexpensive). It also has a polarity switch on the bottom in case you need to use it on a particular machine.  The PX-5s automatically adjusts to the polarity of any pedal on boot up but the switch may make the pedal available for use on a different keyboard.

 

There  are no dedicated connections for half damper or expression pedals on the px-5s.  An expression pedal would have to be run through midi, and I can't think of any 3 pedal boards that have 2 single ring cable 1/4 cables and a 5 pin or usb midi connector.

 

You could probably get away with a almost any two pedal combo as long as it has two mono 1/4 plugs (single ring).  That would be for soft and damper.  Plus you could program either for sostenuto.  If the two pedal unit has a TRS plug, you could split with a Y TRSF to mono cable.  The same applies to a 3 pedal unit except you can only plug two of the pedals into the PX.  Though, I haven't tried splitting the signal or using a multi-pedal unit.
 

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As I said, I am to connect the continuous pedal/pedals through the MIDI Expression adapter. Asking about a triple board I have meant one that has two switch outputs which can go into the PX-5S directly (for soft and sostenuto) and one continuous for the half damper going into the MIDI Expression.

 

Though, to tell you the truth, while I didn't really want to spend $119 for the Quattro version of the adapter, it's either that or the $49 single one (or the $139 version which features only three inputs but also 5-pin MIDI ports), and the single one might be restricting if I'll want both a continuous sustain pedal and an expression pedal. So, if I'll buy the Quattro version, I could basically connect a full piano-style pedal board plus an expression pedal through the adapter. I could then use the included switch pedal for some other function within the keyboard, I suppose.

 

And looking at the last two replies from that person (vanceg), he seems very pleased with Audiofront's line of adapters:

http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10591.0

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So, I have another question: the MIDI Expression only outputs over USB. I now know that the USB port of the PX-5S can receive MIDI, but I don't know whether that adapter could operate when directly connected to the Privia. The maker of this adapter (I think) told me on his forum that the device to which it's connected needs to operate as the Host, and he said that he don't know of any keyboard currently on the market which supports USB OTG. I did see that an iPad (with the Camera Connection Kit) can be used to change settings on the PX-5S through the USB port, but I don't know whether that's the same thing. The MIDI Expression is Class Compliant, in case that's a factor.

 

Also, it needs power, which I suspect the PX-5S doesn't provide through its back USB port, but I could use a powered USB hub to solve that one, as far as I understand.

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6 minutes ago, BradMZ said:

Right. That adapter needs to be connected to a host device such as a computer. The PX-5S does not act as host.  Here is an outline of possible ways to control volume on the PX-5S.  http://us8.campaign-archive2.com/?u=8f46e9dc76624407f0ab846e4&id=61a7d7e9b7&e=%5BUNIQID

So what makes it work with the iPad? And is the ability to do so hardware or software based? That is, could a firmware update add the ability of the PX-5S to act as a host to such a device?

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iPad is a host device. The only keyboard I know of that can act as host is the Kronos. But look at it's price and it's basically a computer anyway. Also... It's a safe bet to say firmware updates are done for the PX-5S.  The PX-560 was created with expression pedal input in response to PX-5S owners requests.  

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Perhaps, but it also has several things different functionality wise, so you can't really treat it as a replacement.

 

Anyway, I have just ordered the PX-5S so that doesn't really matter now. I can still get the MIDI Expression that has a DIN output, but it's both more expensive and 1-less-input than the Quattro, so I don't know whether I should get that one. I do wonder whether having the pedals go into the computer through the Quattro and then back to the PX-5S from the DAW introduces any noticeable latency, though.

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Midi signals themselves should have pretty much no latency.  You should be able to chain 10 midi units together and be fine.  There is very little data transmitted with Midi and the rate it's transmitted relative to the amount of data makes it very quick. The bottle necks are going to be in software and sound hardware.  The biggest bottlenecks come in the form of playing samples and analog to digital conversions (digital data into actual sound).  A poorly programmed DAW or one not setup properly can slow things down considerably. 

 

in terms of hardware, you mentioned an RME interface.  I know PCI type RME interfaces kicked butt in terms of low latency and quality - that's going back some years.  Perhaps their USB interface is good also. 

 

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2 hours ago, Choppin said:

Midi signals themselves should have pretty much no latency.  You should be able to chain 10 midi units together and be fine.  There is very little data transmitted with Midi and the rate it's transmitted relative to the amount of data makes it very quick. The bottle necks are going to be in software and sound hardware.  The biggest bottlenecks come in the form of playing samples and analog to digital conversions (digital data into actual sound).  A poorly programmed DAW or one not setup properly can slow things down considerably. 

 

in terms of hardware, you mentioned an RME interface.  I know PCI type RME interfaces kicked butt in terms of low latency and quality - that's going back some years.  Perhaps their USB interface is good also. 

 

Well, just for playing with the keyboard and its own sounds, the person from Audiofront (of MIDI Expression) suggested me to simply plug in the ME into the computer and have the computer send the pedaling DATA directly to the USB port of the PX-5S. I don't know whether that should be any slower or faster than connecting it through the MIDI ports of the Babyface Pro. But, can the PX-5S both receive and send MIDI data over its USB port at the same time? Or is it either? Probably not very often needed, but that would be for situations when I both want the Casio's internal sounds and to capture the playing in MIDI. I Could use the MIDI in and out for that, but this would obviously require more cables laying around.

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You should be fine.  The USB port can't receive and transmit the same data or you could end up with an endless loop.  What you receive on the USB port won't be transmitted back out through the USB port.  It could come from the Midi 5 pin though.  Something like below:

 

Pedal --> Computer --> USB --> Px-5s -->Midi 5 pin out --> back to computer using what came in on USB

Simultaneously Px-5s keyboard playing --> USB out --> Computer

 


 

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  • 10 months later...

Dear TLc, I am very interested to know what was your solution to the Midi Expression problem. I have a PX-5S myself and I found quite a complex route bu usong IK Blueboard, an iPad and a iRig MIDI to enter the keyboard.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

Alberto

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1 hour ago, aminetti said:

Dear TLc, I am very interested to know what was your solution to the Midi Expression problem. I have a PX-5S myself and I found quite a complex route bu usong IK Blueboard, an iPad and a iRig MIDI to enter the keyboard.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

Alberto

Hey, Alberto.

 

Well, there weren't much other options, so I've indeed bought the MIDI Expression Quattro. It's pretty simple, but requires a computer in this case. I just connect the ME to the computer, and through its standalone/VST plugin interface set what messages it will send, and then stream it onto the PX-5S over its USB port (or MIDI input if you prefer).

 

I bought a Roland RPU-3 piano-style pedal set (all three are actually continuous control) and a Moog EP-3 expression pedal. They all seem to work fine with this setup.

 

As I mentioned before, Audiofront also have a MIDI Expression iO product which has 5-pin MIDI I/O and doesn't need to go through a computer (it needs power over USB, though, but IIRC the guy over there said it should be able to get it from the PX-5S' USB-stick port, but I can't verify that), but I haven't tried it myself and it's both more expensive than the Quattro and has only 3 pedal inputs. He actually promised to send me one for free after I helped him tackle some bugs with the VST plugin, but then didn't answer my last email. It's possible he just forgot, but I didn't feel like asking whether he remembers my free iO ($150, but meh... never mind).

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  • 2 weeks later...

Actually MIDI Expression iO Manual mentions its 'computer independency' when USB powered. By looking around I found also this:

 

http://www.kentonuk.com/products/items/utilities/usb-host.shtml

 

which can do the work when already owing a MIDI Expression (non iO). But, it comes for 88.80 UK£, thus the iO is the real solution for 3 continuous pedals.

For a single-expression pedal need:

US$ 219  https://www.sourceaudiostore.net/product/reflex-universal-expression-controller

which is (maybe) an 'all-inclusive' solution

or, cheaper,

MIDI Expression (US$ 49) + USB-Host (about US$ 100) + the pedal (today down to about US$ 30).

I still hope to find a better solution, although it is likely that MIDI Expression iO (as I already own two expression pedals and a continuous sustain pedal) is the stronger option today.

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