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XW-P1...left in the corner?


lucabbrasi

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hi, and sorry for my bad english...

after some weeks of use of my XW, few observations about it. It seems that the synth is like..left in the corner by Casio.

- no firmware updates. The synth engine is powerful, but limited in some cases. Solo Hex and drawbars available only on 1 channel, and only in first channel: why?

it's not possible to change waveforms of the PCM sounds: very limitating, why?

only 4 parts for multis, and no other Solo or Hex in a multi: why?

effects quality: terrible, indeed. why?

if I apply DSP on channel 1 to other parts, the Volume level of part 2 is forced to that one of channel 1: why? it's not logic..

I guess that a "simple" firmware update could give a new life to this synth, and correct this disfunctions.

- no new sounds, also from others (kidnepro and so on): why? last message on XW blog said "we're dealing with others for developing new sounds"....the idea (good) was not carried on...why?

I have the XW and also a stage PX3. I'm quite satisfied, but...we've to deal with different policy coming from...Clavia, i.e., that supports his customers with new updates and sounds.

It's not possible to purchase a new instrument every 6 months, in order to get an...update of a previous model.

thanks for feedbacks and replies

lucabbrasi

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Hi and welcome Lucabbrasi,

I would also like to see a new sound pack released.

As for new firmware to 'fix' the limitations you mentioned, I don't think that will happen. They are limitations of the hardware.

Don't forget the price of this synth and what it can do.

Maybe Casio will surprise us...

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I'm hoping they've just been busy with the new Privia. The XW-P1 for the price is a great product. I for one would not shell out 4X the money for the Clavia/Nords. I would be shocked if Casio didn't provide updates to this synth line. This being their first synth in quite sometime it's obvious they know what they're doing and with effort could easily take over the entry/mid level synth market.

Hopefully Mike and team keep up the good work with the XW line.

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We'll certainly have more sounds coming for the XW series. As far has a firmware update that will address some of those requests above, as was suggested by others we're dealing with the limitations of the hardware. Here is my view on the XW series. Take any ONE thing it does and it is more than worth its price.

  • If you only used it only as a six oscillator solo synth - worth $499 or more
  • 4 zone MIDI controller with easy iPad connectivity and placement - worth $499 or more
  • Powerful Hex Layer sounds for acoustic and textured synth sounds - worth $499 or more
  • A one of a kind Step Sequencer - worth FAR more than $499

Maybe I'm dating myself but keyboards never used to have firmware updates. ;)

We've done two updates for the XW series - CASIO has NEVER EVER done this before.

Sounds, more tutorials. I get that. We've got you covered.

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I don't have any problems with firmware on the XW.

What I do have problems with, however, is windows updates breaking the software. I am STILL waiting for an update to the Data Editor Software for the XW-P1 as mine stopped working for me on Windows 7 a few months ago.

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HappyRat - I've personally tested the editor on 6 Windows computers each with current updates (3 here at work, 3 at home). Tokyo has also tested. I'm sorry but I believe the issue is specific to your computer. Do you have another computer that you can try? I truly believe that another device or piece of software on your computer is causing the issue.

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Hi Mike.

My setup is kind of awkward to move around but I'll run a test with an Acer Netbook I have running XP SP3 over the weekend and get back to you next week on it.

One thing that wouldn't surprise me is if it was the M-Audio Venom ASIO drivers that are causing the problem.

I never installed that on the netbook so I'll get back to you on it.

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I am running an old 2001 Compaq Presario tower and an old 2003 Compaq Presario laptop both with XP-SP2, a 2007 HP Pavilion desktop with Vista-64, a new HP dual core laptop and a new Acer netbook, both with WIN7-64 SP1. I run ASIO4ALL on all of them, and have no problems with any of the Casio software - the XW Editor, the new CTK/WK downloaders, or the old WK3800 downloader (IDES).

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...I didn't say "hey guys, this synth is a f....d machine for 500 bucks!".....I only said that the limitations (effects quality, the possibility to change waveform on PCM sounds, etc ) are so...thin that a SIMPLE firmware update could solve them (it's a real problem of hardware to have a....better, little better reverb???)

I'm asking for some little improvements...the 2 updates that Martin wrote, were released for correcting some bugs, not for improvements....

And....hey Casio, I'm writing this 'cause I trust in you, I'm not fighting against you.I'm asking only for a more customer care.

Some new sounds packs? Apologize, I work all day, taking care of other things, and I would be glad if someone, that doese THIS for work, could help me. I've no enough time to programm. Sorry.

To be frank, friends: not consider the Solo synth and Hex layer sections, but....have you listen carefully to ALL the PCM sounds? A Sound Canvas sounds better indeed. There's not an useful pad in PCM, the "Soundtrack" patch is made with choirs! Am I asking too much? If only I could change the wave inside that patch, or for others....this is not a hardware limit, believe me, it's a conceptual limit.

Why no ADSR in PCM section? No resonance? Hardware limit? naahhh.....

Considering all, I thank Mike for his reply, and wait for Casio updates in terms of sounds and...corrections

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Why no ADSR in PCM section? No resonance? Hardware limit? naahhh.....

Yes. Because you have to assume that you have 13 step sequencer tracks, a solo synth or hex layer sound and three other PCM sounds happening all at once, plus whatever is coming in the MIDI input. It's no small task.

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Personally I use a Behringer mixer with 100 DSP effects built in so the crappy effects don't bother me. I agree though, with those who feel that Casio phoned it in with the "cheap n' cheerful" PCM bread and butter patches.

Then again, I own a Korg that gives me my GM and other PCM instruments so the main reason I bought the XW-P1 was for the synth sounds and hex layers. I don't feel at all cheated, but I agree that Casio really dropped the ball on the PCM tones.

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Hello lucabbrasi,

A lot of things you are asking for, as Mike and others have already confirmed, really cannot be "fixed" by firmware update as easily as you think. I would bet a lot of things are hardcoded in various chips on the machine, especially the waveforms and PCM sounds, probably the effects processes too, and probably cannot be easily altered (if at all!) via software update... and if able to be altered at all, would probably have to be done via special hardware tools to reprogram the chips.

Certain functionality in the synth can be tweaked with firmware updates, but it's really going to depend on the architecture of the synth and what things are programmed into the hardware itself (i.e. various chips, processor, etc.), versus what is in the firmware that can be reprogrammed via updates. Think of it like this: The firmware is the operating system. That's like Windows, Mac OS, Linux. But the hardware is like your actual soundcard, video card, RAM, hard drive, etc. in your computer. You can update the "operating system", but the functionality of the hardware is pretty much going to be limited to how it was designed and manufactured. There's just no way around that.

I think Mike's statement is important to think about: "synths never used to have firmware updates"

I think his point (without saying it outright) is that "you get what you get" when you buy something like this. When you buy a synth you really need to understand what kind of sounds it's going to make and what features it is capable of. I'm pretty sure no XW-P1 had a sticker on it promising a healthy stream of "new sounds". What you get in the box is the only thing you can depend on for sure, so it really is up to the buyer to evaluate that and determine if it is going to meet their needs or not.

Also even with the release of new sounds, there's no guarantee those will be to your liking either, since they will still be using all the same basic waveforms and PCM samples on the machine, just layered and programmed in different ways. The actual PCM samples and waveforms will NEVER be different from what they are right now.

I agree some of the PCM sounds are not the best but they certainly are not the worst either, and some I think are pretty good. You really have to remember the "big picture" with an instrument like this, AND the price range, AND the competition (which in my opinion the only competition is stuff like the Yamaha MM6 and similar). It is a jack of all trades and not going to do any one thing exceptionally well, but rather provide a range of versatile tools. Also considering this is an ENTRY-LEVEL "pseudo-workstation"/performance synth, and in comparison to everything else in its league, it really goes above and beyond what anyone should expect! As always, "you get what you pay for" - not to say the XW-P1 is "cheap", but for its price bracket you really cannot expect more than what it already gives, especially considering it already gives SO much!

Also consider that some of the individual sounds and effects might not sound great "by themselves", BUT once you start mixing stuff together, layering, sequencing, etc. I think any deficiencies quickly become overshadowed by the "bigger picture", i.e. the sum of all parts becomes greater than any of the individual parts alone.

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only 4 parts for multis, and no other Solo or Hex in a multi: why?

lucabbrasi

I am pretty sure you can use one Solo OR Hex sound in ONE of the 4 zones, right? Just cannot use more than one, and the other 3 zones have to be PCM sounds. But anyway, to both aspects of the question, "only 4 parts (zones)" and "only 1 solo or hex" - again it's just the limitations of the hardware i.e. you cannot make a 2GHz computer processor do "more" than it is capable of, which would require a 4GHz processor. :) And of course if it was designed to do more, and had to use that faster processor, then of course the price would be higher also. :)

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Guest lucabbrasi

....ok: so I got for what I paid. Right.

A Juno DI (that I owned) offered, for quite same price, 16 parts in performance mode. With no restrictions.

It seems that everyone is trying to climbing the glass, with this strong defense of the Casio baby. I guess that positive feedbacks have the same value of the negative ones...So, I wrote them in a proactive way...

I'm not asking to XW to act like a Kurzweil K2000. Only to be more than a limited Sound Canvas....

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Hey lucabbrasi, well I'm not trying to "defend" the Casio and I'm not saying it's the best thing in the world... just pointing out the fact that some things you are asking for really can't be changed, or if they can be changed in firmware, the limitations of the hardware would not be able to handle those changes. I understand if certain limitations are disappointing for you, but that is just how the instrument was designed... maybe in your opinion those were bad design decisions, but at this point nothing can be done about it. It is already "set in stone", it's how the machine was designed and manufactured...

If you buy a 600 MHz computer, and there is a certain program written to run PRECISELY on that computer, and it runs great on 600 MHz, but then you ask for more features that were originally not included. Well, if the developers go back and add those features, it still has to run on that 600 MHz processor, because that CAN'T be changed, it's the hardware limitation on the computer, then you try to run that new improved program, and everything goes slow and just becomes completely unusable. That is similar to what Mike and others are saying about hardware limitations. Sure, maybe some features could be changed to allow "more" to happen at one time, BUT the machine itself probably will not be able to handle that, because the processor that is physically on the instrument cannot handle "more", and that's not something Casio can fix through firmware, it would require the physical replacement of certain hardware in the machine.

Again I'm not trying to "defend" the Casio, and I don't think anyone else here is either.... but, the facts are facts :) I'm sure if I sat down with a Juno DI, maybe it has some features that are very nice, but I can guarantee you there will be other features I wished it had... but that would be tough luck for me, because Roland most likely isn't going to add those features (or just plain CAN'T add them), for exactly the same reasons the Casio can't add certain things. There are features on the Casio that probably many people enjoy, that I'm sure are not on the Juno DI or a lot of other synths in this price bracket, but maybe you don't care about those features at all and maybe will never use.

So again it really comes down to making sure you evaluate an instrument well enough before you buy it, simply to make sure it is going to meet your needs. Unfortunately it sounds like the Casio is probably not the best instrument for you, if you need more performance parts and if you rely heavily on preset sounds but are not happy with the presets in the Casio. It sounds like maybe you bought your XW-P1 without fully understanding the features and limitations compared to what YOU need in an instrument like this... And since a lot of that simply cannot be changed, really your only options are A) accept it as it is, or B) sell it and find something that does have the features you need :) There are $2000-3000 synths that I'm sure you would not be happy with... Sure they might have great features for some things, but might be very limiting in other things... it just really depends on what features are important for you, and finding the right instrument that meets those needs. :)

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HappyRat - I've personally tested the editor on 6 Windows computers each with current updates (3 here at work, 3 at home). Tokyo has also tested. I'm sorry but I believe the issue is specific to your computer. Do you have another computer that you can try? I truly believe that another device or piece of software on your computer is causing the issue.

Mike!!! I cracked the problem!!!

It seems setting the USBoutsel to "Key' instead of "MIDI" allowed the keyboard to start talking to the Data Editor again.

The problem was nothing more than misconfigured midi settings.

You might want to make a mental note next time someone has difficulty with the software to tell them to try a simple reset of the keyboard settings.

What exactly does the USBoutsel setting do anyway?

Gary :D :D :D

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  • 2 weeks later...

To the OP- I understand your frustrations. Whenever I get a new board I am always looking for some of my favorite features from older board- we want it all (or like you said, just a decent piece of it all!) Still, that Casio can do some things that Roland can't. Every board has limits- but those limits can be blessings if you see them as ways to force you into new paths of being creative- all of us get too stuck in our comfort zone. I'm pretty sure you could create great music with that P-1! One thing I will add, the P-1 is so cheap you can afford to buy a multi-Fx box on ebay. I have a berringer that i got for $80- loads of FX- just patch the P-1 through it and yer in heaven!

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I've been following every forum every review and video I can find on this instrument for about a month now.

I am in the market for another synth, and please no suggestions from the peanut gallery Thank You!

I have owned many synthesizers in my time as far back as 1973 and I believe every instrument has something to offer.

I have even owned the Casio CZ1000 from the 80's, great Synth of that time!

As an electronic musician I believe just one synthesizer as your only sound source can get old rather quick and the massive $$ workstations are a good example of that.

A studio needs to draw from many sound sources to keep your compositions or live work interesting, that includes old and new technology, analog or digital and sample as well.

I most likely will be purchasing the XW-P1 simply for the way it approaches the layering with it's HEX option.

Nothing necessarily new but the sound is different from other manufacturers and in some cases rough and raw, just what the doctor ordered.

I have heard good and bad and downright condemning reveiws on the XW but I don't make it a habit of taking seriously the younger folks on these issues or the seasoned synth snob, they all seem to think that if a synth does not cost thousands of dollars or has x amount of hip distortion sounds it's not good enough, and that's unfortunate.

The XW-P1 will be welcomed in my studio to be sure.

ROLAND: Jupiter 80, XV3080 - KORG: Radias, MS2000 - MOOG: Slim Phatty, Mini Moog D - ALESIS: Ion - CASIO: CZ1000

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  • 6 months later...

One other thought to the mix-most synth-based keyboards use a custom "ROM" chip or chips to permanently store the necessary sample-based sounds (PCM) and this chip may be socketed or hard-wired. Decent samples even by the best sample engineers and sound designers still require alot of memory to store these samples and this is still the expensive part with music equipment as each manufacturer uses a different chip and architecture (unfortunately for us musicians). I can think of  a few manufacturers who actually had socketed chips that could be replaced with newer ROMs that provided additional or "better" sounds. Not easy and usually required in addition to the installation, new firmware to see the new chip and maybe even an additional memory chip to address the new sound samples-complicated. I've done it and it was never foolproof or easy. and it usually cost. Even now waveform cards for my Y******* SY** used cost an arm and a leg plus some hair and skin and you only get 2-3 new waveforms! I too am not thrilled with some of the acoustic PCM instruments in the XW-P1 compared to my other boards-but the piano is not bad and this is usually where manufacturers cut corners, the most important instrument IMHO! You see me all over these boards because I am trying to find ways to overcome the limitations mentioned already. For this price, I don't mind and its almost a fun challenge, but then I'm a little twisted by years of trying to get technology that doesn't work at all to work. The XW-P1 certainly works in more ways than it doesn't, and for this price, it's worth the struggle I think. I look at my G*******music keyboards-actually the first company that pioneered some of the things you are seeing now (audio inputs attached to the synth engine) sounds I've never come across anywhere, ability to import and edit samples in several formats, huge sequencers with ability to use multis as one voice in another multi (that's right), creation of auto-accompaniment patterns and loops and huge libraries of pre-programmed loops at the keys, and drawbar mode for organ sounds and killer large displays (sound familiar).......and they're out of business!-no support at all! I'm beginning to think-hmmm maybe there are a few new engineers working at Casio (to their credit)? At least Casio is still in business...I'll shut up now.

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I've personally noticed the limitation that Lucabbrasi is talking about the DSP on the XW series.

I want to assign DSP to every channel each its own, While making the "Get ready" song wanted

it also in performance mode to happen  thus the limitation it could not.

I hoped also an firmware update could change all that. But as I read about Casio not doing

such things. I can circumvent these limitation by recording on an external device.

And create from every instrument an Performance patch like I already do which also work but

it leaves the XW a bit out. 

 

Also some way that when you edited a patch it stores the parameter  likely as how you would

alter a tone by A.D.S.R with the knobs the synth stores these  setting. And if you want to reset it  its 

done just as easy. 

 

Unless (came to my mind while I was typing)someone here on the forum uses an Ipad with cubasis on it

and tells the experience about it with the XW. (OMG)

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