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built-in style suddenly changed?


shiihs

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Hi forum,

 

This time I'm completely stumped by something that seems to have happened in my WK-7600.

The built-in mid big band style appears to have replaced the intro part with something else.

I'm not using a user rhythm but the built-in Jazz/European mid big band style.

 

At the beginning of this song you can hear how it used to sound, with some lush brass section playing the intro:

And here you can hear what it sounds like now, without that intro brass (Which - to me - is quite a downgrade from what it was). It almost sounds as if part of the outtro is pasted over the intro.

 

http://picosong.com/zzH7

 

I still hope it's somehow an error on my side although I'm out of inspiration on things to try. I've tried looking in the mixer to see if any parts are switched off or any volumes are set to zero, but I can't find anything. I've also tried resetting the keyboard to factory defaults, but the style remains different. As far as I can tell now, only this style appears to be affected.

 

Any ideas? 

 

Best regards,

Stefaan.

 

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Hi tnicoson,

 

First of all, many thanks for the countless hours you seem to spend on this forum, answering each and every question that comes up (or so it seems!)

 

Unfortunately, in this case, I think something else is going on. It's not simply a "problem exists between keyboard and chair" type of thing.

Or perhaps it really is, and I will gladly accept more explanation, but please consider my arguments first:

 

"B:001 Slow BigBand" sounds very different on my wk-7600 from the soundcloud or picosong links:

After the introductory part the Slow BigBand style consists of something brass with accoustic guitar chords on top.

 

If you listen carefully to the part after the introduction in both the soundcloud and the picosong version, you

will hear that there are always some piano chords alternating with some brass chords in both, exactly same way in both recordings, and exactly like it sounds in the Mid Big Band style (and unlike the slow big band style). (I made both recordings myself, btw, so I'm pretty certain I used Mid Big Band style in both recordings. Can I really be so confused as to forget what I did the days before? Maybe :) ).

 

I own the keyboard for a few weeks only and I haven't explored editing existing or creating new styles yet, so I'm not sure how I would have managed

to thin the brass or mute some chords really, let alone add that trumpet with pitch bending effects in the beginning... that's way beyond my current capabilities. What I did do for the soundcloud recording was editing the breathy sax tone which I used to play the melody, by adding some vibrato after a while because that sounded better to me, and to lower the autoaccomp volume to make the sax stand out more. For the rest I'm still a pretty unsophisticated user so far. (As you will have noticed from my previous transposition question, my manual deciphering skills at this point are nothing to bragg about ;))

 

This honestly remains a huge mystery to me. And the worst part is, I cannot recreate my soundcloud recording (which I wanted to re-record because it contains an imperfection, but now I have no idea how to recreate it; I must have checked all styles twice by now to find it back, but obviously without success).

 

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shiihs

 

Very strange, indeed !  I was comparing the recordings to the actual sound output of my WK-7500, and I was comparing only the brass parts in the intros.  To my knowledge, the rhythms in the WK-7500 are identical to those in the WK-7600, although I did notice an enormous difference in bass/treble balance in comparing either recording to the output of my WK-7500.  I wrote this off to the effects of the EQ in the WK-7600, which the WK-7500 does not have.  I was able to replicate, to my ears, at least, the intro of the SoundCloud piece by muting one or two of the brass parts of the Slow BigBand rhythm, while the picosong piece matches the Mid Big Band of my WK-7500 almost exactly, with the exception of the EQ.  The problem with something changing on your keyboard is that the pre-sets, tones and rhythms, are stored in a Read Only Memory (ROM) chip that is permanently burned-in at the factory.  It is inconceivable that static electricity or a power surge could have changed its programming and still left something that is perfectly workable.  That type of damage usually leaves the unit mostly, if not, totally useless.  I agree, that with your current experience level with the WK-7600, it is also inconceivable that you would have modified a rhythm without remembering it.  Believe me, if you had ever done it, you would remember it for the rest of your life.  It is not an easy process.  My point here is that it is not something you could have done by mistake or accident, without knowing it, by hitting an incorrect button.  You would have had to work your way through the editing menus and then save your work.  When you recorded the SoundCloud piece, by any chance did you use the Mixer?  It will allow you to turn rhythm parts on and off or reduce their volumes to zero.  I ask this as a matter of interest, because I don't think that would explain it.  That SoundCloud piece intro sounds entirely different from the Mid BigBand.  I really don't think you could do that with either the EQ or the Mixer, but what "happened" is pretty much beside the point at this stage.  The dilemma is how to recreate your original work, and for that, I am afraid I have no answer.  I have been through all of the rhythms on my WK-7500 that could possibly fit, but have found nothing that sounds anything like your SoundCloud piece.  It's almost like it was done on a different keyboard.  About all I have to offer at this point is my best wishes, not just in solving this problem, but with your ongoing endeavors with your WK-7600.

 

Regards,

 

Ted

 

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Hi Ted,

 

Thanks for your comments. It seems as if I may have cracked the secret (by accident of course,

as it goes with all great discoveries).

 

I'd be grateful, if you happen to have a spare moment, if you could try to confirm that my findings are indeed correct.

It seems that the introduction part of the mid big band style is wildly different based on whether you start with minor-type chord

versus a major-type chord.

 

My soundcloud recording started with a minor-like chord (Eb7m) whereas my picosong recording started with a 

major chord (C) causing the completely different introduction.

 

So it seems like this is a feature of this style (as well as a clear violation of the "principle of least astonishment" :))

 

In summary, now I think this actually *is* completely a "problem exists between keyboard and chair problem"

and I'm best friends with my wk-7600 again (lol!).

 

Best regards,

Stefaan.

 

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Stefaan

 

As Brad has already confirmed, you are absolutely correct.  All three of those "Big Band" Rhythms (Slow, Mid, Fast) use different melodic patterns for both Intros and Endings when played with a minor chord versus and major chord.  I thoroughly apologize for not picking up on this from your initial post.  This has been a known "feature" of the Yamaha MOTL PSR and TOTL Tyros Arrangers for many years, and from time to time becomes a topic of some very heated discussions amongst the style (rhythm) tweaker/creators on the Yamaha forums, as none of them have figured out yet how to do it.  This is not something that the rhythm engine does automatically.  The different melodic patterns have to be programmed separately (as well as the switch trigger instructions) into the rhythm by the programmer.  To date, Yamaha has not been forthcoming on how this is done.  I have used this feature on my PSR-3000 for over 10 years now.  Quite often I will purposely start one of those types of styles on a minor chord that will resolve properly to a song's first major chord, because I like the minor chord Intro better than the major chord Intro.  I was very surprised to find this when I first got into the Casio CTK/WK-6XXX/7XXX models, as it indicates a higher degree of rhythm programming sophistication than I ever realized that Casio was into.  Based on Brad's reply above, I am going to have to haul my old WK-3800 out of mothballs and rack it up in the studio here to see if it has any rhythms that are programmed that way.  I never tried it, as I just assumed that it did not have that type of rhythm programming.

 

At any rate, we can now both sleep well tonight knowing the our minds are not dropping off the edge - not in this respect, at least !

 

Regards,

 

Ted

 

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I'll try to make some time to check this out on the WK-3800 this weekend, Brad, and will post it here.  Not that it would make much difference to you or Stefaan or I, but I think there are still a fair number of WK-3XXX owner/users out there that might be interested - now that the subject has come up.  Like you, I am betting "probably not".  I had the WK-3800 about 6 months before I got the PSR-3000.  If the 3800 had that capability, you would think that I would have noticed it somewhere in all that time.  I discovered it on the PSR-3000 the first day I had it.

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I think the PX575/410  I play uses basically the same rhythms as the older WK Casio's. I checked this tonight-at least with the PX575, there is no variation on the intros or accompaniments switching from Major to minor chords. These parts are locked in. I only checked the Big Band and Swing accompaniments. I'm sure others follow the same design. 

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I have now been through all 159 preset rhythms on the WK-3800, and as predicted by BradMz and Jokeyman123, I did not find any that had different instruments or patterns when played with a minor chord, as opposed to a major chord.  So, it appears that Casio did improve their rhythm design sophistication from the WK-3XXX and earlier models to the current CTK/WK-6XXX/7XXX model lines.  In order to save time, I only checked Intro1, the assumption being that if Intro1 did not exhibit a major/minor "dual" nature, neither would Intro2 or either of the Endings.  I suppose the next is to go through all of the preset rhythms on the CTK/WK-7XXX to determine which are of a major/minor "dual" nature. 

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On 9/12/2016 at 11:58 AM, tnicoson said:

I suppose the next is to go through all of the preset rhythms on the CTK/WK-7XXX to determine which are of a major/minor "dual" nature. 

 

Are you writing the unofficial reference manual by any chance? ;) 

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