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8 Keys Not Working


Chas

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Hi All,

 

I'm back in the UK getting my gear ready to be shipped over to the USA. Before I pack each item, I check to make sure all was working. Of course, having not played with any of my synths for over a year I wanted to a little bit of time to enjoy them before I packed them up, and that included both my XW's.

 

My P1 worked fine, so after a while I packed it away. My G1 though, seems to have a fault with the keyboard.

 

In a nutshell, C3 - G3, including the black keys, are unresponsive. I must confess that it has done this before, and it seemed to be an intermittent fault as either they'd suddenly start working again or would do so as I flipped through the settings and messed around with key ranges and all that. I remember once doing a factory reset that seemed to solve the issue, though I've no idea if that or the menu diving had any effect or not or whether it was a coincidence.

 

Anyhow, when I got back after being away a year sure enough the G1 was doing the dead keys trick again, then seemed to start working again. It stayed that way until I got my Roland JX-3P back from having its KIWI3P upgrade installed and as can be expected, my attention turned to playing the hell out of that as it completely revamps the Roland and turns it into quite the beast. The G1 was not used for a good few weeks until tonight when I decided to try it out one last time before packing it away for the shippers. However, once again when I switched it on the C3 - G3 are unresponsive. I tried menu diving, resetting key ranges and finally tried two factory resets all to no avail - these particular keys remain dead.

 

I also hooked it up via MIDI to the JX-3P, and using the G1 to play the JX shows the same issue with the same range of dead keys. When I do it the other way round and use the JX to play the G1 via MIDI, all key ranges are responsive indicating that the G1's sound engine is functioning perfectly and that there is something stopping the G1's C3 - G3 range of keys from working.

 

Has anyone encountered this issue with the G1 (or P1) before (I tried looking through the forum and can't see where any similar incidences)? Any idea where I should start looking to resolve the problem? I know I can use the G1 fine over MIDI, but I'd still like its keyboard to work properly again :(

 

Chas

 

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

I've probably not been good with my XW-G1 :( My G1 is showing traces of random issue's the same button on the step sequencer lits up by itself 

and even the tap tempo wont go responsive as well octave shift. From octave C1 ,D1 stop responding and somehow bender key is wobbling. 

I've already reset it but still happening.  Quiet sad actually I've started to get the hang of things with it ah well. 

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Just a remote guess, since I am familiar with the insides of these plastic key mechanisms I'll give it a try.

 

The keys on these are assembled and fitted in sections, with thin plastic strips interconnecting specific groups of keys together (these are not fitted as individual keys as are many keyboards). Only 2-3 screws placed vertically and top down hold the keys in place by fastening through these plastic strips. The keys will mechanically sit where positioned without the screws or if the screws become loose-mine were on my XW-P1 when I took it apart the first time. There is a possibility-and I noticed this on mine, that if the screws are loose, the fulcrum pressure on the keys will not be sufficient to make enough contact with the rubber boots underneath-in other words, the back of the key which is it's hinge, may be lifting just enough to create this problem. Since only a specific range of keys are being affected, and consecutively, I suspect this section of the keystrip inside has come loose due to the screws fastening these down in the back part of the key. There is nothing else holding these keys in place except the physical design of the frame surrounding the keys-in other words, any loose-fitting internal strip will not be obvious and may even feel as secure as the other keys.

 

If you take it apart-I would check all these top-placed screws as all of them will loosen over time. And since this range may be one you tend to play more frequently, this diagnosis would be my best guess.

 

I would also think a little loctite or some similar thread-locking material in these screws might prevent this from happening again. Might as well if you disassemble it as these will only loosen again with repeated playing. Another observation-the back part of the keys on these XWs is a very thin plastic structure-this is the key's hinge. None of mine have broken-yet-but I look at this as a weak link in this playing mechanism. Just saying! And i think i have some old posts showing the insides of my XW-if I disremember (my own word) if not I'm sure by now there must be some pics somewhere on the web showing the insides of the XWs.

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A faulty key group (or every n-th key is dead) is often a bad solder joint in the keyboard matrix. However if factory reset fixed this, then it is likely a software-related problem, which may be caused by power surges, static electricity, EMP (lightnings) or accidental unplugging while powered on.

battery problem?

Does the XW-G1 store user data in SRAM or flash memory? While the latter may make it prone to firmware corruption if implemented unsafely (i.e. no write protected address space), SRAM will freak out when battery runs empty. This may be even a soldered tiny rechargeable lithium button cell hidden on mainboard, that drains over time (possibly many months) when main batteries are not inserted or empty.

E.g. my much older Yamaha MK-100 makes bugs those can be absurdly confusing if you don't know what's going on. That is to say, the MK-100 stores all settings in battery backed up RAM; with no batteries inserted the RAM is backed up by a large electrolytic capacitor for a few days(?). When the cap runs empty, this messes up the data badly and even causes things to subtly malfunction those normally were expected not to be RAM dependant. E.g. sometimes particular preset sounds plays too silent or certain parts of them refuse to be editable, or their LEDs show mess or sustain doesn't work or even the chord volume slide switch refuses to change volume at some positions (e.g. only 2 of the 5 positions have different volume). These flaws can drive you crazy and make you take the entire thing apart for hours to successlessly search for dirty switches etc. etc. and even in the manual I downloaded from Yamaha there is no reset procedure for this keyboard explained to prevent this. (In manuals of later Yamaha PortaSounds with battery backed up RAM stands usually that certain simultaneous button presses reset the thing.)

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On 10-1-2017 at 3:49 AM, CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler said:

A
Does the XW-G1 store user data in SRAM or flash memory? While the latter may make it prone to firmware corruption if implemented unsafely (i.e. no write protected address space), SRAM will freak out when battery runs empty. This may be even a soldered tiny rechargeable lithium button cell hidden on mainboard, that drains over time (possibly many months) when main batteries are not inserted or empty.

 

I do notice how fast the G1 stores samples from sample memory as an ZAL file compared how it does it when its written to memory and to sdcard.

A separate storage for for samples from the looper bank would be more efficient as it saves lots of task handeling time. 

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  • 2 years later...

I have a much simpler Casio keyboard- CDP-130, but have experienced a very similar issue.  Intermittently, the A1, F1, C#2 and A4 make no sound, and send no signal to midi. As we were pulling the key action section out of the case, the dead keys suddenly sprang back to life.  Slightly twisting the entire key bed/board would duplicate the failure.  So without risking the snapping of plastic tabs by completely taking it apart, I vote for a bad solder joint or micro-fracture in the circuit board holding those keys.  We bought the CDP second-hand, so it's possible it was damaged at some point or perhaps even stepped on.  

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Thanks for the suggestion, and I see that I should've updated this thread with what eventually happened with my G1.

 

As it was almost 3 years ago, and I was up to my eyeballs selling off much of my belongings and packing everything else to be shipped across the Atlantic, I can't remember if I did get the faulty keys functioning again before my G1 was shipped.

 

7 months later, all my property/ keyboards/ guitars finally arrived at my home in Florida. It took a good few months to get my studio set up and also for me to test and start using my keyboards again. 

 

Here's where it gets weird.  I fired up my G1 and it was working fine. And it has continued to work fine ever since (furious wood touching), with no sign of the dead section of keys reappearing. No rhyme nor reason, maybe the G1 prefers the sunny climate of Florida to its original home in the UK! I've also been using it very recently to rework a song using its step sequencer, arpeggiator and sampling feature. It's been behaving just fine.

 

It's good news that it is working properly again, but I can offer no explanation for its previous dead keys issue that have now miraculously resolved itself. Long may it remain that way!

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Humidity (Florida!)-moisture conducts electricity better than a dry environment. the tiny pin connectors (if the connector is not soldered directly) are often the source of my repair woes. Even if one pin in a matrix is not connecting, all sorts of weird key problems can happen. Even a hairline fracture in a solder pad, or a tiny faulty solder joint-in one pin connection-can louse things up. mentioning this as my Korg microKontrol suddenly decided to be intermittent in the highest 8 notes, for no apparent reason. The source ended up being its main pin connector to the IC board which I need to repair as i post this. If the notes are skipping around-in different octaves, this indicates that one of the circuits in the matrix-scanning array is not right-again, even a hairline fracture or bad trace can disconnect a whole series of keys, but not usually in a cluster of keys together. Fortunately, aside from new felt for the keys, I've had no other problems from my Casios. Just passing on from my sometimes difficult repair experiences, I have to be my own roadie/tech support......necessity is the Mother of Inventions. 

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  • 7 months later...

I finally have an update on the mysterious G1 keys working/ not working issue!

 

I was reading Jokeyman's latest post where he had updated the firmware in his P1, and out of curiosity, I decided to fire up my P1 and G1 to see what firmware they had (I found that they both had the earlier firmware). As they were switched on, I decided to have a play around on them both as it's been a while since I last used them. I initially tried the P1, and was worried because I couldn't get the step sequencer to start. I thought that the button may be faulty, though everything else was fine. Then I remembered that while experimenting with using it with my DAW back last summer, I had set the P1 to MIDI Slave, so it wouldn't start unless it was told to do so by the master MIDI controller in my DAW. One quick adjustment of the P1's MIDI settings and it was all up and running again. I also forgot just how good those Hex Layer sounds are, I was most impressed! I really need to start writing some more music with it.

 

Then I tried my G1, and again, what a great sounding synth. It had all my previous Performances in memory, including some excellent sounds/ samples, arpeggiated bass lines and also drum loops. I started noodling around on it, having fun triggering the bass lines and step sequencer, then went to play some chords on the split section of the keyboard and...

 

...a section of keys were non responsive. Yes, the same keys that gave me grief back in the UK in 2016 and that then worked fine after it was shipped over to the USA the following year. I had a little bit of spare time tonight, and my curiosity got the better of me, so I decided to pull off the top middle section just to have a look and see if anything was obvious amiss. I was suspecting maybe a loose connector or something that just needed re-seating. I removed a few screws from the underside and the top center panel was ready to come off. I lifted it up, and straight away  could see something that was very likely to be the problem:

 

IMG_20200330_225444.thumb.jpg.cffcfc67b11235ea923bc894b3d8882f.jpg

 

One of the ribbon cables that connected to the middle of the keyboard, near to where the dead keys were, had a HOLE in it!

 

IMG_20200330_225500.thumb.jpg.2936c01b353e7f489acf7a473eceea1c.jpg   

 

Looking closer, it appeared that the ribbon cable had been trapped between the top center panel and one of the lower case screw posts. When the two were put together, one of the case screws had gone straight through the cable.

 

IMG_20200330_225609.thumb.jpg.da0f4ab2b8a38169ccaf84c1378cb7c4.jpg

 

There was also another cable with some foam around it that had been slightly trapped between the upper case and the keyboard. Luckily this had sustained no damage.

 

IMG_20200330_225512.thumb.jpg.ce972938d3f4599545f96c05250519ec.jpg

 

Out of curiosity, I powered on the G1 and fiddled around with the damaged area of the cable to see if the dead keys would come to life. They did, though only intermittently. I also partly screwed in one of the case screws to see if that might make contact, and it did, though the connection was still intermittent but better. 

 

IMG_20200330_225703.thumb.jpg.81966455f547f89d2d668b6c7016e525.jpg    

 

My G1 doesn't appear to have ever been opened since new, and it's certainly the first time that I have opened it since I bough it way back in 2014. It looks to me that this happened on assembly at the factory, and amazingly it worked well enough to pass Quality Control, and as I also found out, would work well for long periods of time. It is also apparent that my factory resetting the G1 would have had no effect on the non functioning keys, and that the reason it worked  after shipping it across the Atlantic may be something as simple as the cable physically moving just enough to make contact in the damaged area. 

 

Unfortunately the cable is soldered to the upper board, so it's not just a question of finding a new ribbon cable and replacing it. I have fashioned a temporary repair by jamming some Kynar wire to bridge  the damage area, and it works well enough until I can repair it properly. It appears that only one wire of the ribbon is damaged, so I should be able to cut  the plastic either side of it to raise  a section an inch or two away from the ribbon, then I can solder in a bridge wire between the two raised sections and then sleeve it with heat shrink. That won't look pretty, but it will be permanent and unseen. For now I am glad I have finally got to the bottom of the mysterious intermittent keys issue and can get using the whole key-bed again. I am also a little surprised that this fault even happened, as it's the first time I have ever seen an assembly line fault in any of my Casios. One thing I have always noticed throughout all the models of Casios that I own is how well they are built and put together. Still, maybe my G1 was a Friday afternoon special and the assembly line technician was rushing to get it assembled so they could go home! To be fair, asides from that one assembly fault it is otherwise fine and has worked flawlessly in all other respects. I'm certainly glad it is just a simple fault and one that can easily be repaired, and not something harder to deal with like chip rot or dying SMD chips!   

 

 

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Wow, I wish other faults were as easy to diagnose by eye! The screw must have been making the circuit most of the time, except when it wasn't.

Rather than replacing the whole ribbon, you could just solder a single wire from the solder pads at either end. Or even carefully extract that one core from the cable and bridge it with a short length soldered in place and some heatshrink tubing.

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Whew! Never saw that happen from a factory-you did buy it new? somebody on the line must have had a little too much saki the night before! 

 

It is part of my methodology when doing any assembly-surprising how close some of these cables are to the assembly screws that hold everything together. I have seen poorly designed digital recorders that internally have cables like this routed directly in the path of an assembly screw that need to be torturously twisted to keep away from exactly what you found here. Without careful re-assembly, the cable will be directly in the path of a major assembly screw. Glad you found this to be a relatively simple repair problem. That would definitely kill some keys-and I am surprised even with the screw in the cable that it worked at all-since it must have been shorting 2 discrete data lines together from what I can see. That's not good either! 

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You don't need to replace the whole cable (I wouldn't do either). Simply poke out the broken lead ends with a nail scissor and solder a piece of wire across them. Isolate them with transparent household adhesive film to avoid further trouble. (Professional insulating tape is worse, because it consists of PVC and the plasticizer in it tends to turn its own glue layer into honey within few years and so makes the tape fall off.)

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  • 1 month later...

I'm actually baffled by the sheer amount of cables inside the XW some of them where not positioned right. 

Those cables are actually the less expensive  FC cables. You can find them on alliexpress same cables as

in the computer similar flat cables can be found . I'm actually going to replace a few of them myself cause 

its mostly the module with the step sequence needing to get stable. 

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