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Microphone Volume


Jazzman

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Is anyone else having issues with the volume of the microphone?  

 

When I plug my Shure SM58 or PG58 in via a Hosa MIT-176 XLR3F to 1/4"  impedance matched adapter the volume is so muted that it doesn't cut through the rhythm and melody I am playing.  I have to severely mute the volume of the accompaniment parts with the balance controls in order to have enough mic volume.

 

Do I need to get an external mic preamp or another connection method?  Any suggestions?

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Hi Rick, thanks for weighing in.  If you mean the little knob on the back of the unit labeled "mic volume" then yes, of course.  If there is a system setting that can adjust the mic gain then please point me too it !  That would solve my problem.

 

Here is an example of what I am experiencing.  My settings for "Heaven" by Bryan Adams are:

 

Verses (No Splits):  Up1:  0001 GrPno Concert,  Up2: 0372 CleanGuitar5

Bridge:  Same except change Up2: 0425 UpOctODGt

Rhythm: 062 Oldies Rock

Tempo 105

I change the complexity of the accompaniment throughout the song but mostly I'm on level 3.  I use three registrations for this song. Specifically i have it set with registration 7-4 starting at level 1 and build to level 4 until the bridge where I shift to the next registration 7-5 at level 3 to get the OD guitar and then to a third registration 7-6 to get back to the original verses settings and level 2 finally going to level 1 for the last verse to get the ending 1 that I want to close with.  I suspect this is a typical procedure for most performances?

 

For practice I play with the overall keyboard volume knob set between 10:00 and 11:00.  With the "mic volume" on maximum. To get a reasonable vocal in the mix, I have to adjust the "balance" to reduce the UP1 & Up2 level from 127 to around 100 and the Accompaniment from 127 to 70.  Because my mic volume is not loud enough to cut through the mix I have to adjust the levels of the other parts for every song I have rather than just use the "mic volume" control.  This is a real pain.  As described above, I am often using three or more registrations in a song to vary the instrument mix on the fly.  I'm sure you get the picture.

 

If you try these settings with the Up1, Up2 and Rhythm at 127, I would be interested in what you experience with your mic volume set to max.

 

 

 

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Hi Jazzman, 

 

   Late response here:  

 

EDITED: 

 

   I experienced the same mic volume issue with my MZ-X500, using AKG & Sure copy mikes.   Could hardly hear myself singing against the keyboard sounds, regardless of what mixer adjustments I made using the mixer settings levels (sliders and knob settings).  The small volume knob at the back, was turned up to max. 

 

   Perhaps my high expectations of the MZ-X's standard mic input port.  However, bypassed that small problem by using a vocal effects unit, and fed that output to MZ-X.   Of course, using an outboard mic booster won't be recalled by MZ registrations. 

 

   Be interested to hear from any MZ-X owners (not sales folk) who have had good results from plugging in a mic straight to MZ-X, and what adjustments did you make to get a good mic volume.  

 

 

BOSS VE-5.png

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Hi Lobbard, thanks for the suggestion, this could be a workable solution for me.  Do you run the mic output of the VE-5 into the mic input of the MZ-X500 and if so what is your cable setup?  I'm thinking that I would still need to use an impedance matching adapter to go from the three pin mic output of the VE-5 to the 1/4" TR plug on the MZ-X500.  How high do you now need to set the mic volume on both units to get satisfactory vocal levels?

 

After reading the owners manual for the VE-5 the only negative I see is that you need to set the key signature so the harmonies are correct.  Has this been troublesome?  Do you use the optional foot switch or just hand control to add in the harmonies?

 

How do you like the reverb effects and harmonies?  I used to use a TC-Helicon VoiceLive Play but gave it up because the harmonies were "unpredictable".  I tried it with my MZ-X500 but even at max output it was marginal.

 

The seller of my MZ-X500 has volunteered to check the mic volume on a unit from their inventory.  I gave them my settings from this post and will report back on their findings.

 

Sorry about all the burdensome questions, I really appreciate your help.  

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e.JPG.0f41e52c09828bb0c339c7c078a49048.JPG

23 hours ago, Jazzman said:

Hi Lobbard, thanks for the suggestion, this could be a workable solution for me.  Do you run the mic output of the VE-5 into the mic input of the MZ-X500 and if so what is your cable setup?  I'm thinking that I would still need to use an impedance matching adapter to go from the three pin mic output of the VE-5 to the 1/4" TR plug on the MZ-X500.  How high do you now need to set the mic volume on both units to get satisfactory vocal levels?

 

After reading the owners manual for the VE-5 the only negative I see is that you need to set the key signature so the harmonies are correct.  Has this been troublesome?  Do you use the optional foot switch or just hand control to add in the harmonies?

 

How do you like the reverb effects and harmonies?  I used to use a TC-Helicon VoiceLive Play but gave it up because the harmonies were "unpredictable".  I tried it with my MZ-X500 but even at max output it was marginal.

 

The seller of my MZ-X500 has volunteered to check the mic volume on a unit from their inventory.  I gave them my settings from this post and will report back on their findings.

 

Sorry about all the burdensome questions, I really appreciate your help.  

 

     

Hi Jazzman,

 

     "... Do you run the mic output of the VE-5 into the mic input of the MZ-X500 ...

 

 EDIT:   IMPORTANT CORRECTION:   Connecting VE-5's XLR output into MZ-X500 MIC IN port produces distortion, possibly due to being a too strong signal for the MZ-X's MIC IN?   

 

Two options: 

Option 1:  use mini stereo jack from VE's  phone / line out port, into the MZ-X's AUDIO IN.  Very good with no distortion and the volume can be controlled using the small AUDIO IN knob at rear of MZ-X500.   Be aware, though, that any audio incoming from this input can't be recorded by MZ-X500 audio recorder.

 

Option 2:  Connect XLR OUT from effects unit to the left (mono) jack of the MZ-X500's LINE IN,   There's no MZ'-X knob for controlling this incoming volume but audio CAN be included in MZ's audio recorder.  Good connection but volume much lower compared to using the above option.  Had to use MZ mixer to reduced all other levels to around 70 percent to get a relative balance between music and audio.      

 

  "...and if so what is your cable setup?..."

 

 XLR mic input to VE (either condenser mike or dynamic),

 XLR out from VE into left / mono Jack of MZ LINE IN. 

 

 

 "...  I'm thinking that I would still need to use an impedance matching adapter to go from the three pin mic output of the VE-5 to the 1/4" TR plug on the MZ-X500...."

 

Sorry but need to plead ignorance of the terminology on impedance :-).  

 

 "...How high do you now need to set the mic volume on both units to get satisfactory vocal levels?..."

 

  MZ-X AUDIO IN (mini stereo jack) really blasts out!   Use the MZ-X small volume knob to adjust to liking.

  The MZ-X LINE IN (using single Jack into left / mono,  much quieter, (as described above).   

   

VE-5  settings for using the line-out stereo into MZ-X AUDIO IN:    Mic sensitivity  -  60 to 70 (of 100)   Mic Low Cut to -  off

   Mic Phantom Power  -  off (for dynamic mic or the internal mic)    Mic Internal mic  - off      Rotary volume control between 50 and 70 (of 100).  

VE-5 settings for using XLR out connecting to MZ-X's LINE IN (left /mono).  All settings at max volume. 

 

"...After reading the owners manual for the VE-5 the only negative I see is that you need to set the key signature so the harmonies are correct...."

Yes, better add that I'm no competent vocalist, and my own use for the mic is producing vocal squeaks, grunts and squeaks for the MZ's pads.  Hardly messed much with the VE's harmony settings, but can see that changing keys for different songs might be warrant further study of the VE.  There are 3 favorite settings buttons on the VE, which I suppose could store difference harmony keys at the touch of a button. 

 

"...  Do you use the optional foot switch or just hand control to add in the harmonies?..."

 Use a pair of interlocking Boss FS-5U pedals (unlatched, no batteries required). Foot switch 1 toggles the VE's effects on/ off, and Foot switch 2 toggles the VE's harmony on/off.   

 

"...How do you like the reverb effects and harmonies? ..."

 Like the reverb effects and delays, bearing in mind from perspective of a hobby musician looking to mash novelty sounds rather than sing harmonies.  The voice changing effects of the VE-5 are handy, too.  

 

"... I really appreciate your help..."

  No problem, sir, -  my invoice is in the post!   :banana:

A.png

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Hi Lobbard,  

 

Thanks for the detailed response.  I'm learning about microphones as I go.  Apparently lower quality mics have a high impedance output and use an unbalanced 1/4" TS connector.  Our Casio MZ-X500 seems to be designed for these type of mics, ugh...  Since I don't have one I cannot comment on what the volume would be when using a high impedance mic.  Professional mics, like my Shure SM58, are used by nearly ALL stage perforrmers.  They are low impedance and use a balanced XLR connector.  I have tried the Hosa MIT-176 adapter (pic attached) which has an impedance matching transformer in it but it is still unsatisfactory.  I just posed this problem to Shure and asked them to suggest a possible solution.  I'll update this post when I hear back from them.

 

The distortion you are experiencing could be the result of not having isolation between the output of the VE-5 and the MZ-X500.  This is something that the Hosa adapter I am using might address, but no guarantees.  I need to use the mic input for the mic during most setups so I will continue to explore how to get this to work.  

 

I am also going to check with Boss/Roland about the output of their VE-5 and see what they say.

 

I'm disappointed that the Casio team has not helped us.  We cannot be the only ones having this issue and Casio certainly must know what their input circuitry needs in order to have strong vocals from a professional microphone.  This isn't a karaoke machine!!

 

596111734c2ff_HosaMIT-176.thumb.jpg.3c42423b42c76416f7e7a4ae93bd265c.jpg

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18 hours ago, Lobbard said:

EDIT: Hi cut and posted as new response, thank-you

 

 

  

Hi, Jazzman,  back again, learning as we go;  have been tinkering on this over the weekend. 


   Leaving aside playing music for the moment and just using the MZ amplifier as a PA,  I tested both my mikes and both work nicely when plugged directly (no outboard devices involved) into MZ-X500 MIC IN slot.   

Volume is good. I left the MZ main volume control turned half-way (twelve o'clock position),  and with no DSP effects on and with the MIC volume knob (at the back of the keyboard) turned to max.    I found the cheaper Samson karaoke mike is fine and responsive, but the  more expensive AKG mike is even better! 


So from my own perspective, it seems like an issue of relative volumes between the keyboard sounds and the mike volume.   It is no mean feat trying to get these levels balanced, especially if you are working musician, I guess. 


 On the other hand, incorporating the Boss vocal effects unit and connecting that to MZ' LINE IN (or AUDIO IN), makes a huge difference with hardly any tinkering needed in the Mixer page, so I'll keep to that effective solution.   
  
Looking again at Ralph Maten's  video  (Ralph is a competent demonstrator of MZ-X500),   have copied how Ralph sets up the mic. adjusts volume, applies DSP 1, etc but did struggle to match Ralph's nice balanced sounds that he gets.  Video demonstration by Ralph Maten,  using mic with Casio MZ-X500: Ralph says (English subtitles) @ 30 seconds into this video:   quote:  "...I am using a very cheap microphone that you can buy for around 30 euros...! "

 

 

Boss VE-5 specifications here: 
https://www.boss.info/us/products/ve-5/specifications/

 

AKG D5 (S) microphone  (average cost £90 UK) specs here: 
http://www.akg.com/pro/p/d5group

 

Samson Q7 karaoke microphone (average cost £40 UK):
http://www.samsontech.com/samson/products/microphones/dynamic-microphones/q7/

 

hope any of this helps,  although will be now reverting to using my little Boss VE-5, cheers!   :-) 

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Hi Lobbard,

 

I took a look at the video by Ralph Maten.  I agree it sounds good, but one thing he didn't show was the balance settings between the mic, keyboard parts and rhythm.  I can also get enough volume from my Shure SM58 mic without anything else playing but the problem is that unless I severely reduce the other parts the mic volume is not adequate to cut through.  Having to change the balance settings for hundreds of performances is not something I'm willing to do.  We should be able to have the mic volume adjustment alone create an adequate level for the vocals.

 

With the master volume at 12:00 the volume of the performance parts is way too loud for my average size practice room so I play at 10:00 to 11:00.  In either case since the volume of the mic tracks with the master volume the problem of mic level persists.

 

I took a look at the specs for both your mics.  The impedance of the AKG is 300 ohms (similar to my Share SM58) while the Samsonteck is just 150 ohms.  Both these mics are considered low impedance so I would expect them to have low volume with the MZ-X500.  I see that locally Walmart has some inexpensive mics <$20 USD meant for Karaoke with unbalanced connections.  These are typically high impedance mics and I will try one out next week to see if my theory is correct.  Stay tuned.

 

On the plus side it was good to learn that the MZ-X500 can add reverb to the mic input vis activation of the DSP effects.  Still learning.

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Hi Lobbard,

 

Got a response to my inquiry from Shure, a great mic company with super support.  They pretty much confirm what we are seeing so I suspect that most professional mics will not have adequate volume with the MZ-X500.  This may explain why Casio is not helping us out here, they probably don't want this broadly known.  I am attaching a copy of my inquiry and response from Shure.  Boss/Roland usually takes a few days to respond to inquiries so I will post their comments about interfacing to the VE-5 when I get them.  I have also asked Sweetwater if they could test the Berhinger 8500 mic with the MZ-X500.  Berhinger advertises that this mic has "high output" so maybe it could work without a pre-amp.

 

 

Screen Shot 2017-07-10 at 9.25.34 AM.png

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Hi there, Jazzman,

 

Good research there.  

 

Hoped you would've attracted more response to this topic., perhaps not many plugging in a mic?  Be nice to compare what other folk are using. From browsing other keyboard sites (like psrtutorial.com), many of the professional / semi-pro performers use a mixer / preamp, rather than plugging a mic directly into their keyboard.  

 

This topic might get more attention on the Casio MZX-X500 Facebook page -   more international?   Also there is the facility on that site to post short video files, which might be useful for comparisons.  

 

Singing through a mike whilst playing full keyboard piano, no problem here, using the MIC IN connection and using my cheapo or mid-range mikes.  Only when the full band kicks in,  do all the levels go up and drown out the vocals.  So again, it appears a matter of getting the two volumes right?  

 

  Meanwhile,  this might be an opportunity to make more use of the MZ-X500 mixer and registrations,  something one needs to do more of.  

 

 

MIKES.png

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Hi Leonh,

 

A condenser mic requires "phantom power", something the MZ-X500 does not provide, so you would need an additional piece of gear to use one.  A condenser mic would  not necessarily have a higher output than a dynamic mic.  From what I can tell, you will need a mic output signal with about 6mV to 10mV to play well with the keyboard.  To me that means that a mic preamp is going to be required with most professional mics of either type.  Let us know how you find the vocal levels.

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Then why not buy condenser mic with battery so you don't need phantom power inside keyboard which in absence of XLR jack on MZ 500 is obvious that it doesn't have one and yes mic preamp is good idea .On Ralph's Marten videos it looks like he hooked his mic into main mixer.

I will try it myself when possible.

To add I just read mz manual and it says use dynamic microphone.

Edited by Leonh
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I really don't see an advantage to a condenser microphone, to each his own.  I'm personally not interested in having gear with batteries that I have to worry about during a performance.

 

I only express disappointment with the MZ-X500 mic input because, in my opinion, it is pretty useless without ancillary equipment.  They could have had a great feature if it had a preamp with enough gain for the most popular professional dynamic mics in use today.  Unfortunately Casio chose to save cost and provided a very anemic feature. Using the same mic with my Roland equipment is an entirely different experience.  Plenty of gain to cut through the keys.  This is a feature that I would suggest that Casio enhance for their target market.  My ideal would be a combo XLR/TRS jack, balanced input, high enough gain for a 1.5mV dynamic mic output, volume control moved to the front panel AND a companion reverb control.  Now that would be exciting!!

 

Good luck with the microphone, keep us posted on how it works out for you.

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4 hours ago, Rick Sterling said:

I've just sent a message to Ralph asking for details on his mic setup with the X500. Will report back when he replies.

 

   Nice one, Rick,  that info would be most welcome, thank-you.

   I don't do gigs, but am confused about that red lead plugged into Ralph's MZ-X500 MIC IN socket. (Ralph's mic lead is black).

RALPHS.png

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8 minutes ago, Lobbard said:

 

   Nice one, Rick,  that info would be most welcome, thank-you.

   I don't do gigs, but am confused about that red lead plugged into Ralph's MZ-X500 MIC IN socket. (Ralph's mic lead is black).

RALPHS.png

 

That's the first thing I noticed too! ;-)

 

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JAZZMAN - I ( HOPE!! ) I may have an immediately workable solution to your problem :-)

 

BEHRINGER manufacture a truly BRILLIANT little mixer called the "XENYX 502" which, in the U.K., costs around £30!!

It has a single XLR mic input featuring an ( also brilliant!! ) XENYX PRE AMP, which produces a gain-range of +10db to + 60db !!!! Surely enough to overcome your problem, as you describe it?

 

It also features: Line Input / Aux Input / Stereo Aux Returns / Main Outs / Control Room Outs / Headphone Out - ALL on TRS 1/4" jacks, and easily configurable to suit the way you work buddy ;-)

You also get the  2 Band version of Behringer's astonishing "Neo Classic British" eq, which I can catagorically promise you mate, is the most pro-sounding eq you'll find, anywhere, for anything like the price!!

 

So you'll get an awful lot of "bonuses" for your £30 apart from overcoming your mic/X500 problem...... I hope!! :-)

 

Anyway, I KNOW it means buying yet another bit of kit, but I'm absolutely certain that, if you've already coughed-up for the brillliant ( I LOVE that word! :-) ) X500 then you're not going to flinch if a further £30 solves your problem?

 

Hope you crack it, Jazzman, whatever solution you choose!

 

Take care all

Chris

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Songwriter2015 said:

JAZZMAN - I ( HOPE!! ) I may have an immediately workable solution to your problem :-)

 

BEHRINGER manufacture a truly BRILLIANT little mixer called the "XENYX 502" which, in the U.K., costs around £30!!

It has a single XLR mic input featuring an ( also brilliant!! ) XENYX PRE AMP, which produces a gain-range of +10db to + 60db !!!! Surely enough to overcome your problem, as you describe it?

 

It also features: Line Input / Aux Input / Stereo Aux Returns / Main Outs / Control Room Outs / Headphone Out - ALL on TRS 1/4" jacks, and easily configurable to suit the way you work buddy ;-)

You also get the  2 Band version of Behringer's astonishing "Neo Classic British" eq, which I can catagorically promise you mate, is the most pro-sounding eq you'll find, anywhere, for anything like the price!!

 

So you'll get an awful lot of "bonuses" for your £30 apart from overcoming your mic/X500 problem...... I hope!! :-)

 

Anyway, I KNOW it means buying yet another bit of kit, but I'm absolutely certain that, if you've already coughed-up for the brillliant ( I LOVE that word! :-) ) X500 then you're not going to flinch if a further £30 solves your problem?

 

Hope you crack it, Jazzman, whatever solution you choose!

 

Take care all

Chris

 

 

 

Nice! Only $40 over here in USA (at Sweetwater) https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/502

 

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Reply from Ralph ...

 

"Hi Rick, just a short answer (I'm on holiday with my kids). Use the download data and then pic(k) the Dream Rhodes. There I made some very nice mic setting with lots of fx and compressor. I did use it in my videos, you'll find it on youtube. In this video I just took a very cheap Behringer  ($)20  clone of the sm-58. Yours"

 

So it seems he is not using any outboard pre-amp, but does have some mic settings he uses in the Dream Rhodes program in his EDM.ZAL file. Please note: a .ZAL file will write over everything on your X500, so be sure to save your complete setup before loading EDM.ZAL

 

 

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RICK - You obviously realise I'm in the very early days of getting to know the X500, and, so, some of my conclusions may be WAY off the mark - but, it seems to me, from what you, and BRAD, have intimated, a few times, that the player would need to have very, very, specific, and quite "narrow" requirements, in terms of the music they're making, to be prepared to have these .ZAL files "wipe" every aspect of the keyboard, in order to be able to use the files', limited, ( I assume? ), content?

I further assume, 'cos it seems obvious (?!?), that it would need a complete reinstall of EVERYTHING that was on the X500, in order to bring it back to where it was before the .ZAL files were used?? From what you say, Rick, I'm guessing that includes any and all user-created content?

 

I'm hoping you'll tell me whether these files are the equivalent of mana from the musician's version of heaven, because, if they're not, it seems like an awful lot of hassle to go through every time a player wants to use them!!

 

Take care mate

Chris

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A ZAL file does not affect factory data. If you have a brand new, untouched, MZX, that file will only add new data to user memory.  The caution we put out is for users who may have already saved some of their own tones, registrations, rhythms, pad sets, samples, phrases, or recorded midi recordings.  If you have any of that work and want to back it up, you can also save all of it as a ZAL file using the media>save>all data function.  This is a practice I reccomend all owners do occasionally just for backup purposes.  If anything should happen, like loading Ralph's ZAL file, you'll have your own ZAL file to restore your own work.

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