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Phrases from Multi-function area


AlenK

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Hi XW-G1 owners,

 

I'd like someone to check something on the XW-G1 for me. I have an XW-P1 not a G1 so I can't check this for myself. I'm trying to verify what happens when phrases are played on the G1. According to the XW-G1 User's Guide you can start and stop two phrases from the multi-function area of the keyboard,  provided that you set up the appropriate parameters in a Performance. One phrase (Phrase 1) is controlled by keys C5 to B5 while the other phrase (Phrase 2) is controlled by keys C6 to B6. Phrase 1 can be set to play Part 5 or Part 1 while Phrase 2 can be set to play Part 6 or Part 1. My questions are as follows:

 

(1) Can Phrase 1 and Phrase 2 be played at the same time? The manual doesn't say they can't.

 

(2) If the answer to (1) is yes, what happens if both Phrase 1 and Phrase 2 both point to Part 1?  Do they both play the part or does one of the phrases have priority?

 

(3) While either Phrase 1 or Phrase 2 (or both, if possible) are playing, can another phrase be initiated from the PLAY/STOP button on the panel? 

 

(4) Does pressing one of the 11 keys in the multi-function area that can start a given phrase result in any transposition of the phrase? Or do they all do the same thing, which would seem to me to be a waste of keys? 

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You know I never tried it until now. 

 

1 : No Phrase 1 and 2 can't be played at the same time. Because Multi-key range go's from C5 to C7 it only appoints one phrase. 

     Say if I chose the full range I'll get Phrase 1 but you wont have phrase 2 available. But this the thing if I set the range for multi-key 

     from C6 to C7 phrase 2 gets available.

 

2 : Either one available by range can points to part 1 and its own specific part .

     But range dependent you only get either one phrase to play its own part  Phrs1 = part 5, Phrs2 = part 6. 

 

3 : Yes in that case multi-key can be set to have a phrase be triggered and you can also do the phrase on the panel by play/stop 

      plus you can key-play the panel phrase and have multi-key phrase either keeps playing or triggers a phrase then stop.

      If multi-key phrase play's continuously another key gets set to phrase-stop so the loop can end.  

 

4 : No but you can set key-shift value for the phrase this go's from -127 to +127.

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for the clarification. Evidently I have misunderstood a lot about what the XW-G1's User's Guide is describing. I certainly misinterpreted what it says about assigning key ranges. From your explanation I now think I understand that you can choose ONE key from the range C5 to Bb5 to start Phrase 1 or ONE key from the range C6 to Bb6 to start Phrase 2. It still seems strange that you can do the latter only if you have not already done the former.

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1 hour ago, AlenK said:

Thanks for the clarification. Evidently I have misunderstood a lot about what the XW-G1's User's Guide is describing. I certainly misinterpreted what it says about assigning key ranges. From your explanation I now think I understand that you can choose ONE key from the range C5 to Bb5 to start Phrase 1 or ONE key from the range C6 to Bb6 to start Phrase 2. It still seems strange that you can do the latter only if you have not already done the former.

I know what you mean its a bit peculiar it all depends on the range setting but both phrases will not be available at ones.  

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  • 2 months later...
On 22/11/2017 at 1:46 PM, AlenK said:

(1) Can Phrase 1 and Phrase 2 be played at the same time? The manual doesn't say they can't.

 

Yes, in fact up to four phrases can play simultaneously on the G1: one from the phrase sequencer, one from the step sequencer, one from the multifunction key phrase 1 area and one from the multifunction key phrase 2 area. (Sorry, XW-Addict, I disagree with you on this one.)

 

Quote

(2) If the answer to (1) is yes, what happens if both Phrase 1 and Phrase 2 both point to Part 1?  Do they both play the part or does one of the phrases have priority?

 

All four phrases can play part 1 simultaneously. In fact, they can each play any part available to them, as desired.

 

Quote

(3) While either Phrase 1 or Phrase 2 (or both, if possible) are playing, can another phrase be initiated from the PLAY/STOP button  on the panel? 

 

Yes, see above.

 

Quote

(4) Does pressing one of the 11 keys in the multi-function area that can start a given phrase result in any transposition of the phrase? Or do they all do the same thing, which would seem to me to be a waste of keys? 

 

This is how it works: up to 11 of the keys in one of the two multifunction key phrase areas can trigger its own designated phrase. There can be 11 different phrases, or, indeed, all the same phrase or any combination thereof. The phrase to be played is defined by each key. The B key in each area is reserved for stopping the phrase that was triggered from within that area. Thus a G1 can have up to 31 phrases available at the press of a key/button: one from the phrase sequencer itself, 8 from the step sequencer patterns and 22 from the multifunction keys. But only four of these can be playing at any one time, as described above.

 

The keys in one of the multifunction key phrase areas DON'T all do the same thing, although they could if you wanted them to. You can assign the keys to ANY of the multifunction key functions in whatever order you like, including triggering the same or a different phrase or something else entirely like switching a DSP or sending a CC message, etc. Only one key needs to trigger a phrase in order to define the phrase area and reserve the B key. Transposition is not specifically implemented, but it's easy enough to set up the long way – save 11 versions of the phrase with the appropriate phrase key shift and assign it to the corresponding multifunction key. This uses up more phrase memory than desirable, of course, but it can be done.

 

If you wanted specify a single phrase using as few keys as possible, the best way would be to start the multifunction key area at Bb6. This uses only 3 keys: Bb6 to trigger the phrase, B6 to stop it and C7 for whatever multifunction key purpose you wanted. If you wanted to be able to trigger two phrases with multifunction keys you would need to reserve a minimum of 15 multifunction keys down to Bb5.

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Thanks for the detailed explanation, Brett. The ability to play two phrases simultaneously from the multi-function keys makes sense. It's nice to be able to set up so many phrases in each area, something the manual doesn't make clear at all (why should I be surprised?). Looks like there is something for XW-Addict to try out. 

 

Re transposition, since each key can be assigned its own phrase wouldn't it be possible to simply call up the same phrase and specify a different key shift amount for that key (it's one of the parameters)? In other words you wouldn't need to store phrases with different key shifts. Or is the keyshift parameter on a multi-function key global among all phrases in a given area? 

 

The more I understand about the G1's multi-function key capability the more I wish Casio had included it on the P1 as well, at least for functions common between them (obviously you aren't going to be launching user samples from those keys on the P1). There is no fundamental reason why the capability couldn't have been included on the P1, aside perhaps from code-space limitations.

 

However, I suspect excluding it from the P1 was part of Casio's misguided (IMO) and artificial creation of two distinct XW models. Had they integrated the capabilities of the P1 and the G1 into a single keyboard, perhaps with a second model being just a 76-key version, I believe that sales of those XWs would have far surpassed whatever they actually sold of both the P1 and the G1, even at the higher price that would have been necessary. Users would have still considered they were getting a bargain.

 

As it developed, demand for the G1 was never high and it has now all but disappeared from online distributors (few brick-and-mortar stores ever stocked either model). The P1 is also disappearing (see here). Sure, they are nearly six years old but with no direct successors in sight they, along with the PX-5S, are Casio's only speaker-less pro models. (The PX-560 is also a pro model, ostensibly, and while some people will gig with it most won't simply because it has speakers; their loss.) Casio needs to keep selling the XW models as well as the PX-5S to stay visible in that space. A combined P1/G1 would probably have had more legs than either the P1 or the G1 in the market.

 

PS. The G1's looper can record what sounds the G1 itself is playing (other than from the looper), right? If so, I imagine you could play back a phrase in whatever way, record it into the looper and then replay that when desired on top of everything else. So, that would be yet another way to play back a phrase.  

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You're right Alen! The phrase keyshift parameter is accessible to an MF key so phrases can be transposed this way, thus saving precious phrase memory. I hadn't notice that.

 

Rereading my responses above, they do seem a bit long winded. Basically the MF keys reduce the keyboard to a set of switches that can trigger/send pitch bend, DSP settings, phrases, CC values, etc., as shown in the G1 manual. The behaviour of each key is defined completely independently. The only real constraint involves phrases because only two phrases can be triggered by the MF keys at any one time. This creates two phrase areas with the B keys reserved as the stop buttons. As I said, the remaining 11 keys can still be defined however you like to trigger the same phrase, or different phrases or nothing to do with phrases. They can even be left undefined, in which case they're dead keys.

 

I have certainly not explored the full potential of the MF keys. I've mainly used them to switch between different DSP set ups, as a way of exploring DSPs without a lot of menu diving; and setting CC11 (expression) back to 127. (Once I realised that CC11 could be used to mix the volume of zones that shared a common DSP it became important to have a way of quickly resetting the CC11 values because, oddly enough, they persist between Performances. I have a few Performances that reserve the top 4 MF keys to reset CC11 back to 127 for each zone.)

 

In a wish-list thread from several years ago now, I suggested that the new Casio synth should have its entire keyboard as one gigantic MF key area that you could configure however you wanted. One of the MF key settings is Note, which sends the midi note value and velocity to the specified midi channel, so an MF key can work just like a regular key. But you could also put DSP switches or sequencer switches, etc., wherever you wanted as well, accessible to the right hand or left hand or in the middle of a scale. You could implement nonstandard scales, tunings or temperaments. Zones and layers would cease to exist as such. They would just be created by different MF key configurations which would be stored as a Performance. You would obviously be able to read in a standard keyboard layout in which every key defines the standard note. Transposing the keyboard or shifting octaves would amount to reading in a new keyboard layout. (Maybe this is how midi keyboard controllers work, I've never used one so I don't know.) Most players would probably have no interest in this and many might find it downright confusing, but some of us would use it to find new ways of playing a keyboard.


I went for the G1 because I liked the idea of more control over the solo synth and because I'd been fascinated by samplers ever since the time of the original Fairlight. This was my first sampler and I must say that playing my favourite songs with a fart sample took me to a whole new plane of existence.

 

Re: MF keys and sampler. You're right again Alen! Using the mixer, you can set any of the parts to any of the samples and trigger that from an MF key. That means up to 41 possible phrases can be played on a G1!

 

I too wish the P1s and G1s were combined. I'm sure you would have discovered amazing new uses for the MF keys. I've only scratched the surface. Your discoveries of how the different parts of the XWs interact, not to mention the duophonic mode of the solo synth, are nothing short of brilliant.

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I stand corrected on the first part and humbly admit my error due to not correctly setting the range.^_^

it can play 1 arpeggio and 3 phrases plus the looper and step sequence.

 

 

I've discovered something else about the DSP P:8-0 among a few and controls from the step sequence apparently a gated

or "ducking" effect is possible within a performance using the #CC19 on the step-seq control  when two notes

get lowest value the next two pair highest and again while having that control assigned to channel 1. 
 

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I've raged about multi-key in the past and came to understand I've underestimated it's versatility.

As with controls , phrases and arpeggio's the mixer and editable tones all together in a performance.   

The programming is due to a lack of less understanding the manual and clear preset examples. 

What is on the panel of the keyboard doesn't do it justice for what it can do from the inside. 

I'll have to redo patches which I thought off as not powerful enough alone as it would if I build it up,

a loop in the sampler looper.  (back to the drawing board as they say)

 

You guys keep things sharp with an eye for those details I like that. 

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