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Casio In Retreat Mode? An open letter to Casio USA...


moontom

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On 2018-02-01 at 4:12 PM, Scott Hamlin said:

 

True we can only speculate, but I don't think it will take 10 years to get there. For instance, a full-loaded next gen PX-5S could be fully cobbled together using the best of the tech: The 3 pianos samples from the Grand Hybrid, the sound engine and  MIDI controller features from the PX-5S, the step sequencer from the XWs, and the new AiX engine from the latest CT-X line. Heck you can even put a CZ engine in there -- they have the code from the iOS app.  This is just an extreme example, but you see where I'm going: Very easy to make a big splash in a short amount of time if they are so compelled.  The tech is there: it's putting it all together in a nice, cohesive instrument that is the magic, and that doesn't take 10 years. 

 

I totally agree. They have everything they need. Developing any product, even one using existing in-house technology, still takes time (integration, testing, etc. - all the usual steps) but it's a lot faster than trying to develop a product based on something you have never done before. 

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I agree as well -- there are lots of possible avenues Casio can pursue.

 

What concerns me is the radio silence: Casio USA returned to pro-level instruments with huge fanfare a few years back and many of us checked out the gear and happily got on board. 

The (possibly erroneous) assumption was that the company would, in fact, support the gear with OS updates and tutorials -- it sure did seem that way at first, what with all the work Mike Martin did posting custom sounds and answering questions on this forum, etc.  This, and the efforts of this forum's gurus, was especially helpful with the MZ because the printed manuals are, to be diplomatic, somewhat lacking.

Given that the competition in the arranger segment has moved ahead, and that the only Casio offering at NAMM was a budget line, it's reasonable to wonder about the company's commitment to its higher-end users. 

Casio should welcome these questions as evidence that its products have earned respect and loyalty. 

And it should answer them in that spirit. Because when Casio said it was "back" in this game, pro users had the entirely reasonable expectation this meant an ongoing commitment -- not just for the duration of one product cycle.

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1 minute ago, moontom said:

How's that Rick? I read about the parable and must be slow.....

 

The parable has been used to illustrate a range of truths and fallacies; broadly, the parable implies that one's subjective experience can be true, but that such experience is inherently limited by its failure to account for other truths or a totality of truth. 

 

Many people on this forum have shared their beliefs about what is right and wrong with Casio and what direction would be best for the company with regard to the MZ-X500. I would humbly suggest that no one here has the "totality of truth" with regards to Casio's plans and goals and how they may relate to the MZ-X500..   

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Right, I agree entirely -- none of us know what Casio is planning. That's their competitive right. It's also their right (and, I'd argue, also in their interests) to keep customers apprised of developments. That choice is perhaps unusual for Casio, given that it's mostly a consumer company, but it's a wise thing to do.

 

Because nobody who is shopping pro-level arranger keyboards is worried that Yamaha will abandon the category. Ditto Korg. Casio is different -- its entry into this space is recent, its record of defects and issues (key noise, etc) is well documented, etc. Given the current signals, it looks like they're bailing. That may or may not be true, and that's precisely why it seems smart, to me anyway, for Casio USA to be forthright.    

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18 hours ago, Rick Sterling said:

This topic reminds me a bit about the parable of the blind men and the elephant. 

 

You can read about it here. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

 

;)

 

 :)  And the case of the 'Curate's Egg': 

         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curate's_egg

 

        But that the good parts of the MZ-X  much outweigh the bad eh.         

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If anyone still doesn't think that the PX-5S, which is very likely Casio's best-selling pro keyboard, is long overdue for an update, here is post from back in November from a pro player on Keyboard Corner. 

 

Quote

 


It is entirely possible that I will be replacing my venerable PX5S with the SP6.

Personally I feel I am the target market for this. It takes everything I like about my PX5S, and wraps it in a better package with a lot of features I have come to wish the PX had. (forgetting the obvious expression pedal issue)

Bringing so many of the function/parameter controls out from deep menus, where they live on the PX, is a winner for me. As is having status indicators ex. the Local Off/Keyboard transmit status immediately available and easy to see. Also, I like the zone on/off buttons on the front panel.

The days of me lugging around something too much heavier than the PX or this new SP6 are long gone. Heck I just retired and sold my Roland FA08 and brought the PX back into my live rig for this reason.

I don't get into wondering about what the companies are doing. If they produce something I like, that's all that matters.

The SP6 is 11 lbs lighter than the Artis SE. That makes a difference to me.
My PX5S is 11 lbs lighter than my old FA 08. Again, I can definitely feel the difference.

Would I like a Roland RD2000, a Kawai VPC, Kronos 88, etc..? Of course. However, price and no roadies precludes that these days.

It's too bad Casio has let the PX5S get this far without any significant updates. I wish they would have updated it when the focused on bringing the new 560s out with the control items we have been clamoring for.

Again, I love my PX5S. The SP6 seems, to me, to take my PX to the next level.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/2/2018 at 9:41 PM, moontom said:

Casio is different -- its entry into this space is recent, its record of defects and issues (key noise, etc) is well documented, etc. Given the current signals, it looks like they're bailing. That may or may not be true, and that's precisely why it seems smart, to me anyway, for Casio USA to be forthright.    

Some times ago I was searching for a stage piano and I found the Farfisa DP500 as an interesting stage piano, made in Italy with a Fatar TP40 keybed. I was also looking at the Ps5x at the time. I had read mixed reviews about it, it was one of the first serous keyboard after year, the sounds weren't spectacular but the keybed was nice. 

Gone to the dealer to buy it and he said to me that he have ordered some of them and wait a week.

The next week same story, and so on. Meanwhile I found for free an old used stage piano that was only 76 key. I decided to start to practice on it.

After over a month passed I returned to the dealer and asked again.

Then I found that the Farfisa division that make keyboards declared bankruptcy. 

Now Farfisa makes CCTV doorbells http://www.farfisa.com that is alive and well. 

 

I suppose that this is an hard move to exit a market, and from what I have read it was unwanted and actually due to the cheaper 'toy' instruments stockpiling in the warehouses(there are still some music and toy shop selling Farfisa toy keyboards), but in my 'elephant' story I hope that if I buy something costly that I think to use for at least 10 years the manufacturer will remain active and committed in the segment. 

 

An the fact that the ps560 isn't the successor of the PX5s especially because lacks master keyboard useful functions is stopping me on the purchase.

In this case I suppose a firmware update will make people happy. Are they going to fix this?

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2 hours ago, mike71 said:

Are they going to fix this?

 

No. People can pretend otherwise but another firmware update for the 560 is unlikely. And specific to your concern, I see no reason why Casio would address any perceived inadequacies of the 560 as a master controller. That is was not what it was designed to do.  

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When was the XW-P1  released? I am asking because of the good reception it received, the length of time it has been until now, and the behavioral culture of Casio within this time frame to communicate with transparency about support for its products directly from users. I see a trend that can easily change, though it may not at all.

 

Have the questions we are asking now ever been addressed by Casio?

 

There is nothing wrong in my opinion with emphatically stating you are here to stay in a craft you mastered and pioneered. Yet, if it takes more than the current pleas for Casio to find it important(I love strategy btw) to similarly respond as the company, Pioneer has below, then I am completely befuddled by such tactics. I sincerely wish for a win at Casio Music. I think the timelines I gave(earlier in post) may be correct if using the past history of Casio means anything. Look how hard it is for Casio to do this:

 

https://www.pioneerdj.com/en-us/news/2018/toraiz-sp-16-live-sampling-feature/

 

Have they ever done such a thing going back to the XW-P1 or even the MZ-2000?

 

One could say they abandoned all of their products soon after release. I hope I'm wrong about that.

 

So reason to worry is warranted. It has proven to be possible but I hope not because I like Casio Music and feel it could offer many missing links and continue to set trends in electronic music gear, as well as have that gear be stable and a mainstay for Casio to support the gear themselves.

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On 15/02/2018 at 7:44 AM, Carter said:

Instead of improving a product, it seems they give you a new one, reborn and reimagined.

Casio products have excellent longevity but they are not Korg, Yamaha, Roland etc... They do not have the profits and the R&D budget of these giants in the music business. They are budget keyboards like it or not and yes, they have been known release a new keyboard that is similar to the last (casio WK/CTK series) However, it's normally after years and generally they have improved functionality where they couldn't be improved via software releases. Naturally, we'd all love more software updates and improved functionality but when you operate this cheaply, your business must have compromises and im afraid this appears to be one.

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33 minutes ago, Lee33 said:

Casio products have excellent longevity but they are not Korg, Yamaha, Roland etc... They do not have the profits and the R&D budget of these giants in the music business.

I believe the capital is there, Maybe budgeting is not as it should be in R&D, but there's no reason for me to believe that Casio is struggling financially to have a similar budget in R&D as the other major companies leading in electronic music gear.

*Side note:

Only Casio Music has a parent company that masters in time/watch manufactoring and making calculatord.

 

I see no reason why operations from Casio Music have not utilized their internal company craftsmanship and proficiency in time and calculation to assist in groundbreaking features for electronic music gear that offer features that operate based on time and calculations.

 

I'm not asking for a cheap watch or calculator in the box of my device or inside. I'm saying they could utilize those skills in features of their electronic music gear to make better product with resources already available.

 

Their high higher end music division needs to trickle down some good stuff(keybeds) to the lower end stuff, and the watches and calculators departments could be used to aid in the best hardware music gear sequencing ever. I have always said the latest products MZX500, XW-P1/G1, XW-PD1, should all merge features with additional concepts for a killer sound module/synthesizer/workstation that has no keyboard. Just a desktop module using current Casio tech.

 

They have the tech and the money imo, it's just used improperly to create long lasting quality electronic music gear.

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6 hours ago, Carter said:

They have the tech and the money imo, it's just used improperly to create long lasting quality electronic music gear.

 

Hmm, not sure I agree with this last statement. I have many classic Casios sitting in my studio. The oldest is the CT201 from 1980. Other than a few dodgy keys, it still works. I have numerous Casios from 1981 to 1984 - MT68, CT410V, CT403, CT1000P, CT6000, CT7000, VL-1, M10 etc. All still working. CZ101 and CZ-1, 1985/6 - working just as good as ever. FZ-20M, VZ-1, HT700 and HT6000 (all from the late 80's) - all working great. CTK1000 (early 90's) and MZ2000 (2000) - both working perfectly. Then of course I have my XW'S - P1, G1 and PD1. Other than when my G1 suffered a block of keys not working (mysteriously not happened since I emigrated all my equipment to the USA), they have never for one second given any problems.

 

Ironically, there are plenty of similar age Korgs, Rolands and Yamahas that suffer numerous problems and build quality issues. In comparison, Casio clearly have no problems making long lasting and quality music gear!

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6 hours ago, Carter said:

I have always said the latest products MZX500, XW-P1/G1, XW-PD1, should all merge features with additional concepts for a killer sound module/synthesizer/workstation that has no keyboard. Just a desktop module using current Casio tech.

 

100% agree with you on this. Very surprised that Casio has not already done so. It would also elevate Casio's standing among "pro" users to have such a module available, plus it would allow others who wouldn't normally give Casio a glance a chance to get to hear how good they can sound.

 

And most of all, Casio need to capitalize on their CZ legacy and re-release it in updated and expanded form. The other three of the big four Japanese keyboard manufacturers are doing this already with their vintage gear, the market is there and the CZ's are much loved and respected. 

 

We need a fully fledged CZ re-issue, not just a few basic CZ waves chucked into to an otherwise completely different synth. Or at the very least, have a CZ emulator section as part of the proposed super module mentioned above. 

 

Oh, and re-release the PD1 with 5 pin MIDI sockets and midi clock sync. How that passed the design stage with those missing is anyone's guess.

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10 hours ago, Chas said:

2011 I believe, which makes the oldest examples coming up to 7 years old. That's quite long term for an electronic musical instrument sold at the cheaper end of the market.

 

2012. I can't seem to find the original press release anymore but I did find these:

 

http://www.alldaytech.com/namm-2012-casio-hopes-to-reinvent-brand-with-new-xw-synths/

 

https://www.audiokeys.net/forum/forum/forum-général/les-salons-et-événements/archives-namm-2012/12597-namm-2012-casio-xw-g1-et-xw-p1

 

https://www.casio-europe.com/euro/news/detail/807/

 

http://msretailer.com/casios-xw-p1-and-xw-g1/

 

From the first link:

Quote

“Casio is changing who we are and what we mean to the world,” said Steven Schmidt, VP of Production at Casio. “The XW models will synthesize music with a combination of features not currently available in a single instrument.”

 

Clearly, Casio intended to make a statement with these products. Not updating them in six years also makes a statement. 

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On 17/2/2018 at 5:27 AM, AlenK said:

 

Clearly, Casio intended to make a statement with these products. Not updating them in six years also makes a statement. 

Yes. I agree. 

I suppose they find more profitable to make cheap instruments and console digital pianos like the Celviano.

Following this forum looks to me that there are a lot of people that are happy users of Pro Casio series, but maybe the market segment is tiny and crowded.

On an Italian forum I was just talking about that was easier to find an acoustic piano dealer (actually in Turin there is a piano maker) or a small music shop specialized in guitars than on specialized in synthesizers  and keyboards.

Unfortunately we can't know what the Casio management thinks to do.

 

 

 

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When the keys on my XW-P1 plotz, i will mod it into a desktop dance machine. It can be done-the insides have alot of empty space. I've mentioned this before. Would still take up space since the middle panel and left side take alot of room. But these pieces can be separated too, maybe stacked. Or maybe Casio can do this for us-make the XW into a desktop dance module, and compact it. Could work.

 

I still say-bring back the Casio horns, but redesign it so it doesn't look like a kazoo. Wouldn't take much to compete with the Akai cheapo USB wind controller-and look at what the used Yamaha WX's are fetching on eBoopy. Casio could do better I bet. There might be alot of young woodwind players coming up who might like something like this for practice and, gasp, even pro performance. Michael Brecker did pretty well with his EWI wind controllers and he was no slouch.  Look at the new overpriced and ridiculous-looking Roland Aerophone-again, Casio can beat this with a stick I bet. hello-are you reading me???? and yes-a complete workstation like the Yamaha MOX or Fantom etc.....but at half the price. The PX360, 5s and 560 come close but not quite there. No drawbars? No full-blown sequencer or sampling? Big color screen is good-GEM SK76 had this 25 years ago. I kept my Equinox because it has all of that-and then some. And did it 20 years before everybody else-and went out of business so there is a lesson in there somewhere. Ensoniq did the same business model. I just saw a used GEM WK4 (same OS as my old SK76-huge screen, drawbars which also were programmable, sent out midi sysex/cc messages and could be used for just about anything including real-time mixing, volume, panning, had a built-in sample editor plus a 250,000 note sequencer and endless auto-accompaniment editing possibilities-and it sold on eBay in 2 days-so somebody's paying attention. Very similar to the Casio MZ-2000. I'd swear (if I knew the words) Casio got some ideas from the Generalmusic engineers-maybe even some code. if Casio made this, I'd sell half my equipment for something with all that. And it had 76 "chicklet" or 88 piano-action keys. Before the Kurzweil K2500-2600 which looks surprisingly similar, but still costs thousands.

 

Guess if you build even close to the perfect keyboard, you are guaranteed to go out of business-but then Yamaha sold DX's for a long time, and barely changed anything from year to year. But they also make motorcycles and lawn equipment, oh well.

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1 minute ago, Jokeyman123 said:

When the keys on my XW-P1 plotz, i will mod it into a desktop dance machine. It can be done-the insides have alot of empty space. I've mentioned this before. Would still take up space since the middle panel and left side take alot of room. But these pieces can be separated too, maybe stacked. Or maybe Casio can do this for us-make the XW into a desktop dance module, and compact it. Could work.

 

I'd just remove the keyboard and put a flat panel in there for a mixer and some small modules like the Volcas. Of course you don't get the compact size, but man would that be fun! :-)

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  • 2 weeks later...

POSTSCRIPT: So after much deliberation, I began looking seriously at the MZ competition. In part I was driven by curiosity. And also by the nagging sense that Casio is no longer aiming at professionals. We should have heard some response to this thread and several others basically asking "Hey Casio, are you in this space or have you abandoned it and just not told anybody?" and, as some have noted, the lack of response is in itself a response. In my opinion it's kinda cowardly but hey....

 

Anyways, I got to try a friend's new Genos and despite the price tag I was deeply impressed. the board arrived the other day and it is super intuitive, sounds great, and in terms of interface, is elegant in ways we've not seen before in the arranger market. There are some sounds from the MZ I'll miss (Herbie's Rhodes!) and it doesn't have the sampling capability but the overall package Yamaha has developed here is tremendous. And....it goes without saying...Yamaha has been in this segment for a long time and will continue to be.

 

I really want to thank Brad, Rick and all the folks here at this forum for sharing wisdom, tips and their expertise so graciously. You guys are the best. Thank you!

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