So I just got an XW-P1GD... I have some praise, but a major criticism

[KryoShift]

I didn't create this profile to complain about this thing, hell I added my usual avatar I use everywhere and a signature, some of you may have even seen me around before. I really wanted to like this, as a fan of the CZ line I was excited that Casio was back in the game and I was curious what these XWs were about.

And now I'm just left disappointed.

Yes, I know this is a cheap synth (on the LCD in the tempo/measure section, under the bezel there is more LCD that is covered up that actually reads 'tempo' and 'measure' etc lol), and I really wanted to like it, and it has a lot of good things about it. It's gorgeous, imo, I love that 'lime gold' color. I can accept 4 knobs (and hey, 9 sliders and a slew of buttons) on a $500 synth. They keybed is adequate enough, it's pretty good amongst it's peers, actually. I'm not expecting the keys of my K5000S here, but they aren't bad at all and very playable. I've used much, much worse. The sequencer is a great touch and made me immediately wonder if Casio has a groovebox/drum machine in the works for NAMM 2013 >.> I actually like the organ stuff, I thought it would sit unused, but I got some decent epiano stuff going and was pleased. Mono/lead mode plays well, though I mostly bought it for Hex Layer. I love the tray, my MFB-522 is right at home.

But there are some things I cannot forgive.

The person that edited the PCM samples needs to be given a strong lesson on sampling, and the person that okay'd them needs to have their ears checked. Tbh, I've never used a PCM synth before, so if all the clicks and pops are normal, then I apologize for trashing it and the people responsible. I can totally understand why the Attack of the envelope is mapped to K3 on every patch if this is business as usual o.O On plenty of them, you need to be able to adjust the attack so that damned pop is gone. I'm not talking musical percussives, or what you'd use for the transient of a kick drum (though it sounds like that in a way) I'm talking ugly, nasty, who-gives-an-f-about-zero-crossings-anyway crack!s that reverb just loves to make sound even worse. I can get rid of them using the Attack control, but there comes a point when you lose the percussiveness of a sound and get a slight 'whump' at the beginning that, while useful, is not always what one wants.

To be absolutely fair I haven't dug into making my own patches, yet, but the horrid clicking has given me pause to even try. I really, really want to like the EW-P1 and I want Casio to succeed in the synth hardware market, but like I said, there are some things I just can't forgive. Poorly edited samples in an instrument that relies on samples is one of them.

Now, this is lesser for me, but probably a Big Deal to a lot of people. The last 1.5-2.5 octaves on most PCM samples are unplayable. Is this what aliasing in these things sounds like? It's miserable crap and sounds like utter hell and I can understand why people hate it, and synths that make this sound. Personally, I rather like it and would use it for glitches/character percussives. Or a tuning radio sound if you use the pitch bend wheel when it gets gnarly. "How'd you make that radio tuning sound??" "Oh, that's just me pitch bending, ie playing the aliasing " Make lemonade, right?

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but these pops are in a lot of presets and the aliasing is in all of them. I can work around the aliasing, that's the nature of too few samples and trying to pitch them way too much, but clicks because someone couldn't be bothered to find a zero crossing on the sample are another.

Is it safe to assume there is no recourse for having the PCM library updated? (Btw my P1 is on firmware 1.10 already). At the least, is it too much to put in a request for a sample editor so those of us that notice, or even care, can go in and adjust the sample start time ourselves? Having looked in the manual, I suppose I might be able to fuss with the AT and AL envelope points to sort of trick it to knock the clicks out but still give a percussive attack. Blah. It's not in every waveform but it's in an awful lot and sounds awful. How can I be the first person to notice this? Is my unit frazzled or something? It was the only GD they had, but there's another store in the area that has one...

Like I said, I primarily got the P1 for Hex Layer, which only uses PCM samples, so if those are trash then this thing has to go back, sorry Casio.

**edit** It's in the 'synth oscillators' too. When it said "generates sound like" I was hoping in my heart of hearts that the P1 used DSP to created OSC1 and OSC2, and then block 3 and 4 were PCM. Seems that was just wishful thinking.

Piano sounds great, organ section is nice enough, but the poorly sampled PCM synth stuff kills this one for me. Maybe tomorrow before I pack it up and head off to Guitar Center I will upload an audio file, but how no one else seems to notice this is beyond me. I didn't notice it on any online videos, or on the G1 I played at Guitar Center but I only got a feel for the keybed, I didn't go through it as extensively as I am with my P1.

[Mike Martin]

KryoShift,

I guess I'd ask, what where you looking for in a keyboard before purchasing the XW-P1?

In regards to your first comment about zero crossings and the attack, I've personally never noticed anything nor have I have seen single complaint about it either before this. While I had nothing to do with the samples in the XW series, it was my work in sampling and sound design for instruments that got me into this business many...many years ago. Of course I'd love if the XW had larger ROM and no, not all the samples are perfect and some are stretched quite a bit too. What most people find especially when you start combining things in Hex Layers, Performances or Sequences is all the sounds just work so well together. Hex Layers in particular are on of the most amazing aspects of the instrument, especially the ability to blend those layers on the fly much like a Vector based Synthesizer to create some truly evocative sounds.

For the PCM sounds Knob3 is always assigned to attack when you're in a Tone mode but that can be changed when you build Performances.

The samples in the XW-P1 can not be changed. The XW-G1 allows you to add your own samples. The architecture of the G1 makes this feature best for drum sounds (or loops), not multisampled instruments.

[KryoShift]

That's what I don't get, no one has complained about these pops before, and I know from reading around you're not the "corporate lying a**wad type" you really do seem to care about this instrument. As for what I was looking for, a mid-priced synth with decent sounds and a keybed that doesn't make me want to cry every time I touch it. The MIDI out over USB with a MIDI in/out was icing on the cake. The step sequencer was a nice bonus, too. I absolutely did not expect this to be the next Nord Lead or Access Virus lol. I'm sure I came across as a "synth snob looking for a rolls royce on a kia budget." If it wasn't for these clicks/pops I would have zero problems with the XW-P1. But like you said, no one else seems to be having this issue, and I haven't heard it on any demo videos. That's part of why I'm so perplexed and wondered if I just had a dud.

I did notice this morning that with the filter wide open it's not apparent even on a triangle or sine wave, but with slowly closing the filter it reappears. This is even with resonance low, so I don't think it's any weird self-oscillation issue.

Maybe something is just wrong with mine. I'd hate to return it and drive across town for the other P1GD in the area and have the same thing happen.

And hey, I did say I was rather fond of the aliasing at the upper range, it made for some cool glitchy sounding stuff that's right up my alley if I had room for more than one full-size keyboard I might even hang onto it for that and the sequencer >.>

Tonight I will capture a recording to show you what I'm talking about instead of just returning the P1 and washing my hands of it.

I do have a question, though. It occurred to me that I've been using the headphone out (with Audio Technica ATH-M50s that are so not the problem lol), is it possible it's just a really cheap DAC for the headphones causing the problem and the actual audio outs won't have this issue?

Anyone using headphones with their XW?

[KryoShift]

I found an interesting thread on devices notorious for cheap DACs on the headphone output: notebook computers. I know my old MacBook did some hissy nastiness on the headphone out, and if I used a system EQ I could hear clicks like this.

So I'm going to run this into my Apogee ONE via the L audio output and see what's going on. If it turns out it's just the headphone out I'll be very happy because that I can put up with on a $500 instrument And it is starting to make more sense as what could be going on if nobody has been noticing this because they're only hearing audio from the audio outputs.

**edit** also, a Novation Ultranova user on their forum has/had a very similar problem on the headphone out of their synth. It's starting to look more and more like it's just the DAC used for the headphone, if that turns out to be the case tonight I'll let you know and you can delete this thread (hopefully) or I'll just go and take out all the bad stuff about terrible samples >.>

[Nextname]

I have noticed clicking, but not on the Hex Layer sounds. The Solo Synth sounds have a click at the attack AND release, so the first thing I do with a new sound is set the attack and release of the amp envelope to 001 to avoid them. Unless I want the clicks for a really sharp attack -- they do kind of go away when you turn the cutoff of the total filter down (when its an LPF.) Perhaps interestingly, turning the cutoff down on the individual filter for a layer does not eliminate the clicks.

Hopefully you can get the click issue sorted out! I do have other questions about the XW-P1, but that is for another topic.

[KryoShift]

I decided to go home for lunch and chase this thing down. It's in the audio outputs, too.

I have noticed clicking, but not on the Hex Layer sounds. The Solo Synth sounds have a click at the attack AND release, so the first thing I do with a new sound is set the attack and release of the amp envelope to 001 to avoid them. Unless I want the clicks for a really sharp attack -- they do kind of go away when you turn the cutoff of the total filter down (when its an LPF.) Perhaps interestingly, turning the cutoff down on the individual filter for a layer does not eliminate the clicks.

Hopefully you can get the click issue sorted out! I do have other questions about the XW-P1, but that is for another topic.

Well, last night I had to set the attack so far ahead I was losing any percussiveness at all, but looking at the actual numbers, the knob doesn't seem to respond for a brief period (I would assume to take into account different settings for different patches?) and so I was going too much on the A stage. programming a patch to start at 001 (on A and R) works well enough so I guess I'll just shut up and keep the P1 anyway

Btw it exhibits this behavior on Hex Layer, too. I tried to upload a sound file so others could hear it, but it's too large and I have to head back to work so I can't upload it anywhere.

[James Yerkes]

I also noticed the popping on raw waveforms in the SoloSynth, and similarly resorted to A/R values of 1. Of note, I have read about people having to do this on other synths, same exact problem and solution (VA synths, not PCM waveforms - back when I was doing a lot of research VA synth programming), so I suspect it's just one of those things that happens depending on how "raw" the waveform is programmed without being forcefully "padded" to sound nice? Just my suspicion anyway, I really know nothing about deeper synth architecture other than what I can get by twisting knobs.

Have not really noticed it on the Hex Layers, but also have not really been "looking" for it. I'm sure now I'll notice it all over the place. THANKS A LOT FOR RUINING IT FOR ME!!

The P1 does seem a little "raw around the edges" in a lot of places... like the other stuff you mentioned, and of course the blaring filter stepping when tweaking realtime, and various other little things here and there. But overall I am really starting to love this instrument, flaws included, and I think with a little effort and "thinking outside the box" a lot of those flaws can even be used artfully and purposefully. One thing that keeps popping up in my mind, when I hear that notorious filter stepping, is how we're basically told to think that filter stepping is bad (maybe it is!), but every time I hear it I secretly think "that's kind of cool, actually...."

[KryoShift]

So. Do we want to keep this thread (and I edit the first post to reflect what is) or delete it? I'm fine with either, since the 'problem' is solved.

I guess I'm just a n00b to PCM synths? Anything I've ever used in the past has generated it's own waveforms, whether they were analog or digital synthesizers, so is this just 'user error' on my part?

for what it's worth, I'm glad to be keeping it i'm going to abuse those aliasing tones in the first song I use it on, I think Little snippets make for great glitchy percussion

[James Yerkes]

(My opinion) No need to delete threads like this. It's good to have documented discussion about all these different things... even if we don't really resolve anything, at least others can get an idea of where we are at on the issue.

Glad to hear you are keeping it! I know everyone goes to the "well it's a $500 synth, what do you expect" argument and that's a bit overplayed now, but as I have been diving into all the different features, I can't help but feel that even with these flaws it still brings a lot to the table and is still a very useful instrument. Maybe not in a full studio setup, I don't know, but for someone like me who does not have a real studio setup and does not like using a DAW during the creative process, it really is a nice little package of all sorts of goodies.

[KryoShift]

I still wonder why every preset doesn't have the attack and release adjusted so these clicks aren't an issue >.>

But now I'm just beating a dead horse and being super-critical, I think.

Glad to hear you are keeping it! I know everyone goes to the "well it's a $500 synth, what do you expect" argument and that's a bit overplayed now, but as I have been diving into all the different features, I can't help but feel that even with these flaws it still brings a lot to the table and is still a very useful instrument. Maybe not in a full studio setup, I don't know, but for someone like me who does not have a real studio setup and does not like using a DAW during the creative process, it really is a nice little package of all sorts of goodies.

I suppose for the same price I could have bought a used JP-8000, or a Gaia/Ultranova if I wanted something 'newer' (and smaller, I do like compact...), but at the end of the day, if I had to I could use the XW-P1 for an entire track if I wanted. Step sequence the drums and record that, play the bass and lead parts, pads if I had them using the Hex Layer, etc.

Luckily I just need it to be a polysynth and look pretty.

Dear Casio,

if all the P1GDs sell will you make an 'XW-Z1' that uses PD synthesis instead of PCM? >.>

[Technics]

Sounds like you were really unlucky and got a lemon?

Have you considered talking to GC and asking for a replacement?

[KryoShift]

Naw, we got this sorted. I just spent some quality time with my P1 programming a massive 'tarnce' sound using the Hex Layer. Not my genre of choice, but I think if a synth can handle that duty it can handle most anything I'd want it to do.

But yeah, this thing is staying right here. I'm starting to like it's character and even 'quirks' >.>

But I'm odd like that. As for filter stepping James mentioned (that's been reported on a lot, pretty sure it's due to some internal use of MIDI vs it's own controller methods. My EWI 4000S is super smooth with it's internal synth, but steps somewhat when used as a MIDI controller), I don't play the keys live, so if I want a filter sweep, there's always the DAW or my Octatrack makes a nice effects box.

[KryoShift]

Hmm, over the past few days I've realized just how much I used, and thus miss, after-touch when playing keys =/

I wonder if Casio has plans for an upgraded model in store for Winter NAMM >.>

[Technics]

If you have another keyboard with aftertouch, just MIDI it up to the XW. According to the user manual, XW does support aftertouch via MIDI.

Not the cleanest solution, but should cover your needs.

Hmm, over the past few days I've realized just how much I used, and thus miss, after-touch when playing keys =/

I wonder if Casio has plans for an upgraded model in store for Winter NAMM >.>

[Guest butus88]

Setting the decay time to 1 does make sense. No clicks.