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To Mike Martin: Wish list for future Casio WK (workstation keyboard)


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A wish list for a more-compelling versatile and pro-level future WK-series keyboard:


 


1) At least a 128-note polyphony (256-note is better and will compete well vs Yamaha MX series or Korg Krome at the $1000-below price range). 

 

2) Grant  the WK  4 to 6 knobs (fully configurable/programmable) and 16-part step sequence buttons and the ability to also use the 16-part buttons of the step sequencer function of the XW series  as mute/solo buttons in “DAW-mode”

 

3) Grant the WK the same four-zone controller feature  of the PX-5S Pro

 

4) Grant the WK-series HEX-Layer(s) capability – Casio should arm future high-end  WK (workstation keyboard) to provide additional sonic power and be better than the value-oriented MX (Yamaha) and Krome (Korg) keyboards. If double HEX layers will be featured, then a 128 note polyphony may be restrictive...consider then a 256-note polyphony to make the WK more akin to the PX-5S approach/concept.

 

5) Additional two knobs which can be user-assignable as well (if pro users find the current 4 knobs found in the XW and PX-5S to be "minimalistic"  :) )

 

6) Use the AIR sound source for future WK keyboards with capability to add insert effects like the PX-5S. This is a workstation-level series and should therefore be several notches higher than the CTK series high-grade keyboards.

 

7) Grant the WK similar if not the same synth capabilities as the PX-5S PRO

 

8) After touch

 

9) Phrase sequence, Step-sequence, Drawbar Organ (with at least 9 sliders), Arpeggiator, Pattern editor/sequence should be present - this should make it more attractive and value-for-money vs the 61-key synth-workstation offerings from the competition priced below near $1000 (MX/MOX, Krome).

 

10) Retain 16-track sequencer for future WK series

 

11) Adapt Stage settings – to make the WK not only a workstation for studios/home but gig-worthy as well

 

12) Maintain the class USB-compliant feature

 

13) Non-weighted or semi-weighted 73 or 76 keys  (maybe either piano-style or waterfall-type keys)

 

14) Instead of showing the chord played in the screen (lower right corner of the current WK series display, why not use the space instead to indicate at least the numeric value of current knob positions of the four knobs (if the future WK will be upgraded to have knobs, that is).

 

15) Grant future WK models MIDI IN/OUT ports in addition to USB-MIDI

 

16)  Grant the future top-of-the-line WK model the same double pedal input (can be used for “wah effects”; possibly consider adding an expression pedal input) currently seen in the PX-5S

 

17) Possibility of firmware updates and downloadable presets/stage settings like the PX-5S

 

This originated from an earlier post I made in another thread in this forum regarding the possibility of making a PX-5S-derived workstation keyboard...I thought it'll be more appropriate to post it here instead.

 

What about a "WK-PRO" as a name for future high-end model of the WK-series keyboard (hopefully derived from the PX-5S, XW-G1 and WK-7500 functionalities/features)?

 

With these features, the keyboard may look something like this (color theme of the future WK should of course be better than this "collage"):

 

fantasyfuturewkproorwha.jpg

Acknowledgement: The photos above were from Casio WK-7500 and XW-G1, Samson Graphite 49 MIDI controller.

 

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  • 7 months later...

Brian

 

I do not know if you have been following the other threads here on this topic, but there is a work around for converting MIDI files to rhythms that should work fairly well.  You can use the stand alone converter that came with the old IDES-4 Data Manager software that was for the WK-3300/3800/8000 boards to convert MIDI phrases to .CKF rhythm files and then use the new Data Manager 6.X software to download the resulting .CKF rhythm file to the new boards as .AC7 rhythm files.  Like I say, this should work fairly well, as the new auto-accompaniment (rhythm) engines are not all that much different from the old.  This just adds an extra step in the conversion process instead of going directly from MIDI to .AC7.  You will need to learn to use "markers" in your DAW software for separating the various rhythm sections (intro/main/fill/ending) in your MIDI phrase, but this would still be required even with new converter software.

 

Even so, I still fail to see Casio's wisdom in not including this with the new Data Manager 6.X software.  That Tone Editor and Tone Converter, I understand, as the voice (sound) engine is considerably changed and the "editability" of the new voices (tones) is quite limited compared to the old, so that would have required a complete new rewrite.  I have a feeling that Casio thought no one was using this software, so it was not worth including with the new Data Managers.  By omitting it, hopefully they are finding out how popular it really was and will resurrect it with some updated capabilities at some point in the very near future.  Casio has obviously taken a big step forward with the CTK/WK-6XXX/7XXX Workstations and XW synths, but now appear to be failing to take those final few steps to ensure a lasting success of these new units.

 

You can download the old IDES-4 Software and standalone converters from the Casio-Europe site at:

 

http://www.casio-europe.com/euro/emi/specials/ides/downloads/

 

Good luck !

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ctk7200user

 

Just stay tuned to this station and you may eventually get it all. :D

 

The older boards I mentioned above (WK-3300/3800/8000) came with a reasonable software bundle on a CD-ROM.  I have no idea why Casio omitted that with the newer boards.  It could not have cost them all that much.

 

You make a very good point,  Now that Roland is in bed with Cakewalk (Sonar) and Yamaha with Steinberg (Cubase), maybe it is past time that Casio find some high level software company to partner with - maybe the one you have already mentioned elsewhere here - Presonus.  That appears to be a nice package, and then there is always Sony's Acid.  It has great audio and MIDI capabilities, but has kind of just hung around in the wings since its inception and never really came to popularity.  There is always Ableton Live, but they are more into audio looping, and I don't think you will ever be able to separate us old dyed-in-the-wool onboard-hardware-sequencer guys from our precious MIDI files.

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First of all, I don't think ANYONE'S synth purchasing decision was swung by what software was bundled with it.

 

Secondly, keyboard buyers can be broken down into two groups.  Those who already know how to play and those who've never touched an instrument in their lives and bought it for $99 at Walmart because it was too cheap to pass up;.

 

Of the latter group, figure about 85% of them give up within 6 months and it either ends up on Craigslist or gathering dust in the attic at that point.

 

Of the first group, who know how to play, chances are they already have a favorite MIDI software that they are used to and don't want to learn an entirely new interface everytime they buy a new keyboard.

 

Then again, you have to ask, which software platform are they using?  Windows?  OSX?  iOS? Linux?  Android?  I can vouch from experience that Linux is woefully undersupported, but even so, I've managed to find native Linux DAWs, Soft Synths, Sequencers and MIDI utilities that run well either under Native Linux or under WINE emulation.

 

Bottom line is, provide a good basic patch editor if the keyboard needs it, but why reinvent the wheel and supply a full blown DAW when there are plenty of cheap and free alternatives already out there that people already know and love.

 

Not to mention the software license adds another $5 to that $99 Walmart price :P

 

Gary

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And that's exactly WHY I am a big proponent of open source and industry standards.

 

MIDI has been around about 40 years now and it was such a fiendishly clever open ended standard that it still thrives today.

 

Class Compliant USB MIDI was adopted as a standard about a decade ago and open standards again made it easy for the open source guys to support it 100%.

 

ASIO is a new hardware spec still in search of a standard.  Too much proprietary drek out there that works about 30% of the time.

 

You have a Hobson's choice here.  Either carve the standards in stone and risk stifling creativity in the marketplace or else run it like the Wild West with everyone doing their own proprietary thing and end up with Orphaned hardware 10 years later.

 

This issue is bigger than Casio alone.  It requires all the big players to gather around the table and lay out a brilliant open ended framework that allows for innovation while setting up firm guidelines for all software and hardware manufacturers to follow.

 

Gary

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And there's a BIGGGGG difference between "what software is bundled with it" and "whether or not it's compatible."

 

One is software and the other is hardware.

 

Sure hardware compatibility is a big issue for me running Linux.

 

Software, not so much.  If it speaks MIDI or MIDI over USB then pretty much all of my software will talk to it.

 

If it requires proprietary drivers like they did 8 or 9 years ago, I wouldn't buy it.  But nowadays pretty much everyone is on the Class Compliant bandwagon including Yamaha and Casio on anything newer than 3 years old.

 

A sequencer is a sequencer and if it speaks MIDI any appliance will talk to it nowadays,.

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ctk7200user

 

You are still approaching this from the standpoint of a computer techie, while Gary and I see it from the keyboard musician's point of view.  Computer techies will always be big on and swayed by "what all great software and free stuff does it come bundled with and how much of my thinking will it do for me so I don't have to learn a lot ?", while to the average keyboard buyer, the questions are: How does it feel to my fingers ?  How does it sound to my ears ?  What will it take to get it to and from a gig ?  How much does it cost ?  Can I afford it ?  They really couldn't care less what it comes bundled with.  They know in the end they will find something that will work with it.

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Thanks Ted.  At least you "get it."

 

CTKuser is coming across like keyboards are the next big consumer item, like a cellphone.

 

The reality is that in the world today, maybe 1 in 30 people is actually musically inclined and interested in investing the time and study that goes into creating music.

 

The truth is that only about 3% of the population will ever buy and stick to a musical instrument for any length of time.

 

Now divide that up among the 80% who think guitars are "sexy" and that leaves less than half a percent interested in the "other stuff," basses, drums, keyboards, woodwinds, brasses and other strings.

 

So it's pretty safe to say that people who actually know how to play and buy keyboards are close to one in a thousand.

 

Sure Casio and Yamaha flood the market at xmas time with $199 wonders with "lighted keys that teach you how to play" but the reality is for every thousand customers who walk into a Walmart, there's probably only one or two who actually take a serious look at the keyboards in the electronics dept.

 

Keyboards will NEVER be cellphones.  The learning curve is too steep for most people and they give up too easily.

 

For the people on these forums they are a passion, but we are only a handful of people on the world wide web.

 

Most people would rather dance to music than put any effort into learning how to make it.

 

Gary

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ctk7200user

 

I am concerned that you are considering scrapping use of the 7200's sequencer and considering going to a controller and DAW software.  On other forums, I see comments from folks that have gone that route.  They buy a controller that come bundled with software that has templates specifically  designed for their controllers, yet they have no end of problems getting them to work, if ever, and if they ever do get them work, then they have horrendous latency problems.  You touch a key on the controller now and get a tone out the VST 5 seconds later.  Gee !  Must be driver problems - ASIO vs MME.  Whose ASIO drivers are the best ?  Two months later, still unnacceptable latency problems.  Must not be driver problems.  Must be out of date PC hardware.  Gee I just bought it last year.  Paid $600 for it.  Ahhhj !  Asked the experts.  They say I need to spend at least $2500-$3000 to do what I want to do.  Sure wish I had kept my $500 keyboard and learned to use it.  Point is.  These systems are not without their own whole set of problems.

 

Right now, I am doing with every one of my Casio boards with either Cakewalk MC-4 or 6 or Sonar, or Cubase what you say you can not get to work.  The secret is something I learned several years ago from three guys on another forum who make their livings from their home studios.  Don't try to interface the keyboard with the DAW software.  Its too finicky.  I record my take to the keyboard's internal sequencer.  Save it as an SMF to the SD Card.  Port that to the PC card reader.  Bring it up in the DAW and do my full screen editing and mastering there and I am done.  Works first time, every time.  No compatibility problems - at all !

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Hardware is not the problem people.

 

My main workstation is a 4 year old Acer Aspire M3800 with an Intel Quad Core Q8200 CPU running at 2.5 GHz with 4 GB of RAM and I have no less than 4 MIDI devices hooked up to USB ports and audio ports at the same time and manage to sequence and record just fine with zero latency.

 

The difference is that I know how to use Linux and the JACK audio connection kit to its best advantage to achieve this sort of performance with very little effort.

 

That system also dual boots to 64 Bit Win 7 but it is only used for bare bones updates and firmware updates when an emulator is not safe to use.

 

Otherwise I accomplish everything I with 32 bit Kubuntu Linux 13.10 with KXstudio addon installed and everything pretty much just works plug n play.

 

Honestly, not meaning to be mocking or anything, but sometimes it just makes me ,laugh when I hear how much time and money people throw at their systems trying to get MIDI to function without latency on a Windows box ;)

 

Gary

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ctk7200user

 

So if you throw enough $$$ at it, maybe you will finally come up with something that will automatically make your dream CD for you ?  And . . . if it doesn't - well that is just another system designed by a bunch of jerks that does not come up to your standards.  You are now several weeks into this thing and have accomplished nothing but to find fault with everything that does not do the job for you.  I am back to my very original question to you - if you dislike Casio, or as you have now stated (above), keyboards in general, why did you buy one to begin with.  Go buy your computers and have at it, but in that case, you are on the wrong forum.  This is a keyboard forum and a Casio keyboard forum at that.  You might want to try the PG Music Band-in-a-Box forum.  There are a lot of folks over there who spend all of their time making music strictly with their computers.  And what time they don't spend making music, they spend playing one-upmanship over who has the most expensive equipment.  Good luck !

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Gary

 

Exactly my point on why I do things here the way I do.  My reality is that I have a Windows based system.  I know from my own early experiences and those of others that I have observed on these forums that a keyboard-to-Windows system is just a battle I do not want to fight.  So, I record MIDI to the keyboard's sequencer, port it to the PC on a card and that's it.  No fiddling around for hours trying to figure out why things that worked fine last night are not working at all tonight.  That kind of stuff eats up my creativity real quick.  If I want to record audio instead, I have a standalone Fostex 8-tracker that does that very well.

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Nah Gary !

 

We want to send him over to motifator.com and let him have a go around with ole "Bad Mister" Phil Clendenon.  He's their chief moderator.  They feed him raw meat and nails for breakfast.

 

I had a reply all typed up a little earlier and then scrapped it because I thought it might be a little too snarkie, but I'll go ahead and post it now anyway:

 

"I have noticed a growing pattern on this and several other music forums.  It goes something like this.  A new guy comes on the forum and announces that he has just bought the latest brand-x and is going to do all kind of great things with it, but it's obvious he has probably never touched a keyboard in his life.  He may even state that openly.  And . . . then the infamous statement - I am not good with manuals - so I need to know from you guys in a dozen words or less - how do I record this and overdub that - when the guy hasn't even figured out yet which button to push to turn the d@mned thing on.  I even see this over on the Canon camera forum.  I just bought this new camera.  What settings do I use so I can take it out this afternoon and take professional quality pictures with it."  And of course, when things don't work out that way, it's always the equipment's fault.

 

When I saw this exchange going on a little while ago, I decided to bury the axe with this fellow after my initial exchanges with him the other day, so I held out the olive branch by showing concern over his decision to scrap the 7200.  By stating that I already had working what he was having problems with, I was offering my help, but once again, all I got back was bloody, bitten, chewed, and gnarled fingers.  Don't know what happened to the olive branch.  So now I am done . . . with this matter, at least . . . tnicoson signing off !

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How can I set markers on Anvil studio or in other software? What do you mean for markers? 

Many thanks in advance.

Brian

 

I do not know if you have been following the other threads here on this topic, but there is a work around for converting MIDI files to rhythms that should work fairly well.  You can use the stand alone converter that came with the old IDES-4 Data Manager software that was for the WK-3300/3800/8000 boards to convert MIDI phrases to .CKF rhythm files and then use the new Data Manager 6.X software to download the resulting .CKF rhythm file to the new boards as .AC7 rhythm files.  Like I say, this should work fairly well, as the new auto-accompaniment (rhythm) engines are not all that much different from the old.  This just adds an extra step in the conversion process instead of going directly from MIDI to .AC7.  You will need to learn to use "markers" in your DAW software for separating the various rhythm sections (intro/main/fill/ending) in your MIDI phrase, but this would still be required even with new converter software.

 

Even so, I still fail to see Casio's wisdom in not including this with the new Data Manager 6.X software.  That Tone Editor and Tone Converter, I understand, as the voice (sound) engine is considerably changed and the "editability" of the new voices (tones) is quite limited compared to the old, so that would have required a complete new rewrite.  I have a feeling that Casio thought no one was using this software, so it was not worth including with the new Data Managers.  By omitting it, hopefully they are finding out how popular it really was and will resurrect it with some updated capabilities at some point in the very near future.  Casio has obviously taken a big step forward with the CTK/WK-6XXX/7XXX Workstations and XW synths, but now appear to be failing to take those final few steps to ensure a lasting success of these new units.

 

You can download the old IDES-4 Software and standalone converters from the Casio-Europe site at:

 

http://www.casio-europe.com/euro/emi/specials/ides/downloads/

 

Good luck !

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They are what are used when you create a rhythm/style for your keyboard, they identity the different sections of the style/

Rhythm, i.e intro/ main/ ending so your keyboard can tell the difference between each section.

Do a search in your help section of the software your using and it will tell you in there how to insert them.

It varies on the software used. I found a few informative post over on the korg forums

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  • 2 weeks later...

I wanna try it with Avil Studio, because I need to create the zouk kizomba style, which is very difficult to find well done on the Internet, even in the list of Yamaha/Korg/Roland styles. I choose Casio WK 7500 because has very nice latin styles, But lacks in zouk kizomba. There is a zouk.ckf but is no good.

Dear Brian if I'll be able to create this style I'll share it in this forum.

Best regards.

Strogoff

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