Problem Adjusting Attack on PCM Waves

[AlenK]

I was just experimenting with adjusting attack (and release) times with PCM waves within a Hex layer on a P1. Increasing release time always seemed to work. But curiously, attack had very little to no affect on many of the waves, even when I used high positive numbers. Even when there was an effect, it didn't sound like the attack started from zero. Whille that seemed strange I was ready to accept it (although I was disappointed). 

 

But then I happened to try GM Organ 1 (PCM wave 142) and discovered what I think could be a bug with the way this PCM wave responds to the attack parameter, at least when called up from within a Hex layer. With an attack of, say, 66, which should cause the tone to rise to full volume much slower than normal, it had NO affect on notes from G2 to Aflat3 and again from Aflat 4 upwards. It only had an affect below G2 and from A3 to G4. I am guessing it changes at the multisample split points for this particular PCM wave but that's just wild speculation.

  

Can someone verify that they see (okay, hear) this too? Maybe I'm just doing something wrong but I can't imagine what.

 

While this problem could be isolated to just this PCM wave it could affect others as well. I would have assumed that all waves would allow lengthening the attack and I certainly don't expect that to work only on some notes.

 

This problem is ironic given that turning a patch with a fast attack into a pad with a slow attack is done in every single demo video I've ever seen online. Nobody said it would only work with some waves much less only on some notes! We don't get much control of each layer in a Hex layer sound as it is. The mode's single envelope needs to work properly!  

  

PS. I posted this here in general discussion because I'm not certain if it affects PCM waves in general or only when they are used in a Hex layer. 

[Nextname]

  

Can someone verify that they see (okay, hear) this too? Maybe I'm just doing something wrong but I can't imagine what.

 

 

Yep, this is how it is.  Unless we both have buggy XW-P1s.    The envelopes in Hex Layer mode don't function consistently between the different waveforms.  The synth waveforms seem to work closest to how one would hope they would, but it is frustrating to set an envelope and decide to try a different waveform and now the envelope doesn't work the same.  I guess it is because the envelope settings are actually offsets of some preset envelope, but I can't say for sure.  The interesting thing is, just as an example, the vibraphone.  In Hex Layer mode, the attack parameter doesn't seem to do anything, but you CAN adjust the attack of the vibraphone PCM tone. 

 

The Hex Layer mode and kind of the whole XW-P1 seems very kludgey, like they just shoved together existing parts and technology from other instruments.  And I say that with affection, as I enjoy the weird obstacles you face with programming sounds on the XW-P1.  I think the instrument is very fun and versatile and taken as a whole ends up being greater than the sum of its parts.  But I would feel bad for someone trying to learn synthesis and what envelopes do by using Hex Layers, as I think you'd just get so frustrated by the inconsistencies.

 

Oh, and just as another tidbit about Hex Layers in case you haven't encountered it yet, the sliders in Hex Layer mode don't output proper MIDI data, so they are not useful for recording slider movements into a sequencer.  I posted about that many months ago so I won't go into it here. 

[AlenK]

The interesting thing is, just as an example, the vibraphone.  In Hex Layer mode, the attack parameter doesn't seem to do anything, but you CAN adjust the attack of the vibraphone PCM tone. 

Yet more proof that something isn't quite right with Hex layer. Shouldn't you have MORE control in Hex layer mode than in tone mode? After all, you have decay and sustain parameters as well as attack and release.

 

The Hex Layer mode and kind of the whole XW-P1 seems very kludgey, like they just shoved together existing parts and technology from other instruments.  And I say that with affection, as I enjoy the weird obstacles you face with programming sounds on the XW-P1.  I think the instrument is very fun and versatile and taken as a whole ends up being greater than the sum of the parts.

 

My sentiments exactly. This is a fun synth to explore. Although it's disappointing to stumble across what appear to be almost certainly bugs I'm hoping that there are some secret features and hidden modes to find too to make up for it. Time - and lots of button pushing - will tell.

Oh, and just as another tidbit about Hex Layers in case you haven't encountered it yet, the sliders in Hex Layer mode don't output proper MIDI data, so they are not useful for recording slider movements into a sequencer.  I posted about that many months ago so I won't go into it here. 

That is unfortunate. It's odd that apparently the XW-P1 will output drawbar settings on MIDI if you are in drawbar organ mode. That was considered more important than outputting slider data in any other mode? Weird design choice.

[- T -]

Alen

 

See my response to your thread "Do sliders output MIDI data ?".  In Draw-bar Organ mode, they output drawbar data.  When not in Draw-bar Organ mode, they output DSP control data.

[AlenK]

Still more weirdness.

[- T -]

Maybe this shows that Casio really sees both the P1 and G1 as being used primarily in a real-time "DJ/dance-club" type of environment where the sliders would be used more to remotely control effects for some really weird sounds rather than for more mundane uses like simple remote mixer or envelope control functions.  Because of what I have seen here and on other forums for other products, I have come to the conclusion that if you need (or think you need) a controller, you are probably better off to invest in a good quality sound module (Integra-7, Motif XF Rack, etc.) and a fully programmable 61 or 76 key controller with as many knobs, sliders, and switches as you can get.  The synths, workstations, and arrangers always seem to fall short in any number of areas when trying to do double duty as controllers for much more than simple note-on/note-off.

[Mike Martin]

All waveforms have a preset envelope.  When you make changes to the envelope you're creating an offset from the original.  Depending on how the original waveform envelope was programmed there are limits to how far you can adjust it. 

[AlenK]

I had heard that before, I think when you stated it in answer to Craig Anderton in his Pro review on Harmony Central. But even so, why can't I, for instance, slow down (essentially cut off) the attack of a piano sample? I can understand not making the attack faster, since that is "baked" into the sample. But I did expect to be able to slow it down exactly like you did in your demo videos to make a pad sound out of a PCM synth wave. 

 

I suppose to make sense of this I would need to understand exactly HOW the envelopes for each wave have been programmed, which is information that is not in the appendices. Nor do we know which waves allow full ADSR control or how the ADSR controls are going to affect a given tone. It's all trial and error unless you can share some tips.  

 

And none of that explains what is going on with that GM Organ 1 example I gave above. I WAS able to slow down the attack but only over some limited ranges of notes. That's GOT to be a bug. It also doesn't explain why the attack parameter works on the vibraphone PCM tone but not on the vibraphone PCM wave when it is used in a Hex layer as reported by Ted above. Both issues would seem to point to something being amiss with how the Hex layer mode is using or interpreting the envelope data programmed with the PCM waves. Whatever is wrong could be fixable, perhaps easily ("oops...there's the math error") if Casio chooses to look into it.

 

Mike, I would appreciate if you could pass these reports on to the development or sustaining team. FYI, my XW-P1 came from the factory with the latest firmware (v1.10).