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The more perfect horn section


jimmyjames

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My band recently kicked back to life.  We have a horn section with us most of time but I would like to be able to cover their parts for some of the songs if we don't have them for a gig.  The problem I have with layered horn settings, programs, etc on any keyboard I've ever played is that each note has all the horns playing when, in reality of course, each horn is playing just one note....usually a different one.  So let's say I want to mimic more precisely a simple trumpet/sax/trombone horn section.  I could create, three two octave zones on the keyboard for each but I would need very large hands to actually play the parts...and certainly playing any other piano or organ part would be out of the question.   It would be great to have a keyboard that had a "horn mode", where if you played a triad it would, for example, automatically assign the highest note to the trumpet, the middle note to the sax and the lowest note to the trombone.  I would set something like this up in one zone, a second zone where the three are set up in unison and a third with piano, organ or whatever as needed.  Anyway, this is a long winded preface to see if anyone has a work around idea to accomplish something like this on the PX 5S...thanks.

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That is a tough one.  I am not aware of a work around nor any hardware or software product that does what you're asking.  Some Casio (arranger) products have a "Harmony mode".  You can choose a style and based on the chord changes you're playing with your left hand, single notes in your right note are translated into a 3 or 4 part harmony.  It is pretty convincing but still does not separate parts for different instruments.

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Thanks for the quick reply as always Mike!  Seems like a simple mode to create with all the technology out there but I know nothing about keyboard hardware and software.  I guess it's just not a function that is in high demand but I'm hoping you could understand how it could be very useful for a live setting.  I usually wince when a hear a keyboard covering horn parts because, well, it sounds like a keyboard covering horn parts no matter how good the underlying samples are. 

 

I was thinking about setting up a couple hex layers one with a major triad and a second with a minor triad both in the first inversion so the trumpet is playing the root.  I'd use tones for the two remaining zones to somehow create a matching unison sound.  It would still be pretty limiting and it would be weird to learn how to play it.  You definitely wouldn't be able to cover " What is Hip" with it but maybe you could fake "Angels of Harlem" pretty well...we play the latter.  The other option of course, is to sequence it (phrase or song mode I guess) but then the drummer would need to play to a click track...that's not going to happen in our band.

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My band recently kicked back to life.  We have a horn section with us most of time but I would like to be able to cover their parts for some of the songs if we don't have them for a gig.  The problem I have with layered horn settings, programs, etc on any keyboard I've ever played is that each note has all the horns playing when, in reality of course, each horn is playing just one note....usually a different one.  So let's say I want to mimic more precisely a simple trumpet/sax/trombone horn section.  I could create, three two octave zones on the keyboard for each but I would need very large hands to actually play the parts...and certainly playing any other piano or organ part would be out of the question.   It would be great to have a keyboard that had a "horn mode", where if you played a triad it would, for example, automatically assign the highest note to the trumpet, the middle note to the sax and the lowest note to the trombone.  I would set something like this up in one zone, a second zone where the three are set up in unison and a third with piano, organ or whatever as needed.  Anyway, this is a long winded preface to see if anyone has a work around idea to accomplish something like this on the PX 5S...thanks.

 

You might try to create a hex layer with the three horn voices, but coarse-tune two of them to match the third and fifth of the triad.  You would then only play one note for your triad, but get the three-instrument chord.  It would restrict you to playing the same chord voicing, but might get you close.  You could maybe create a second hex layer with a minor third and a fifth and assign it to a different part of the keyboard.  At least that might get you the two main chord bases.

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You might try to create a hex layer with the three horn voices, but coarse-tune two of them to match the third and fifth of the triad.  You would then only play one note for your triad, but get the three-instrument chord.  It would restrict you to playing the same chord voicing, but might get you close.  You could maybe create a second hex layer with a minor third and a fifth and assign it to a different part of the keyboard.  At least that might get you the two main chord bases.

 

Nevermind!  You came up with the same solution while I was typing!

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I'm hoping to do something similar to what you're trying to accomplish, but I just got my PX-5S and there aren't enough hours in the day to do what I want to do!  I'm trying to set up a bunch of different percussion loops that I can trigger either with controllers or keys.  If I go with keys as the trigger, though, I'll have to go externally through a processor.  Anyway, section 22.10 of the MIDI implementation manual has some tasty suggestions that a controller command may be able to set a given phrase to start (I'm not sure about this, not actually having tried it yet).  You may be able to sequence a whole assortment of single chords and use a controller to switch to the one you want in some creative way.  If I figure anything out, I'll post it.

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Thanks for the creative thoughts jaspeter!!  I had started to think about creating a series of MIDI-triggered single chord phrases...my head started to spin with all the work it would take to create them and then to learn how to play them.  I think neither my bandmates nor the audience would really appreciate it...such is the lot of the modern keyboard player I guess.  I would love to hear/see anything you figure out though! 

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Yes - the velocity switching is a great way to make the timbre realistic.. the real issue is making realistic voicing arrangements. That's where special software like SH is really handy - it maps the chords to the style you select. It's not perfect but it works. I really think a clever programmer could do something very similar on the PX-5S using phrases and key mapping (not sure if that's the right term) - but it would have to be unique for each song/style to pull it off. 

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Not a PX-5S owner here, but just spitballin.  Can you velocity map the different instruments on the PX so that each type of horn plays depending on how hard you hit the keys?

 

Brilliant, Happyrat!  It would definitely take some finesse in playing style, but certainly opens possibilities! 

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Lazy... Thhhbbbbpppptttt... :P;)

 

Seriously though, with velocity and a keyboard split I'd think 2 to 4 different types of horn would be doable and if the PX5S supported aftertouch the sky would be the limit :D

 

Gary

 

The pedals would be able to help with this as well - someone in the FB group is working on a complex Horn Section patch using both pedals to do swells and dips. Excited to see what he comes up with.  B)

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  • 4 months later...

i wonder why no Synth Brand has worked around the Wind Controller of the 80´ there was a lot of potential ....also today we have so many

Technological Stuff there are so many new way´s to tweak Keyboard ,...witch Eyecatcher ,,,sensors . and all that stuff ;) ......

 

 

INVENTION is the Keyword....

 

for the PX5S ,,what about using an external tab like an expression Pad....(KORG)

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My Kurzweil PC3K supports an optional breath controller and an optional ribbon controller as well.  AFAIK Kurzweil's synths have supported these for decades.  Eve so, while Kurzweil does manufacture the ribbon the breath controller can only be had from a third party Like Yamaha's BC3A.

 

Gary ;)

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  • 4 months later...

I've been using an akai ewi 4000s with the px and it works great, I'm new to all of this but I used it in a local theater run of a musical. I assigned the wind controller to zone 2, created some string patches, tightens up some bassoon clarinet english horn and a couple of synths. I had literally had the px for a few days so I had no time to do any custom midi implementation nor do I know how to do so. I still had three other zones to play with on the keys.

Don't know if anyone could help me with this but how would one go about implementing midi, it seems that for my ewi and the usable editable (according to what I can understand from the online manual) all I have to use breath wise is expression and volume. On my xwp1 the synth section has something called virtual controller that allows me to set breath to a wide range of stuff, is there anything like that on the px?

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I wonder if you would be able to do something with the arp function to suit your needs.

You could stick your three horns on three zones.

Then in zone one arp, you set it to play the upper note,

in zone two arp, you set it to play the second most upper note,

in zone three arp you set it play the third most upper note.

You would maybe set the parameters to play just one 100% note and slow the speed right down to get the full note or maybe use the TIE function to string 2 or 3 arp steps together. 

You might run into the problem I had though where you need to fully depress a key before you press another to get the second to sound immediately.

Bit of a hacky solution but it might work to some extent.

 

In Mike's second PX-5s clinic video, he does a good demo of the arp function at 31:35: 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thought about this one for a while... Here's my two penniths

I've been covering for horn sections since before there were poly synths let alone sample players. Back the in a typical guitar, keys, bass drums lineup, I'd use my Hammond with mostly full draw bars and get the guitarist to add the lead line. This was very effective in a live situation. Later the Moog added too this. In the 80’s poly synths kind of took away the focus on brass so that the lines were actually recorded on synths.

But to cover the old Stax classics etc you need a good brass simulation. Now I use Roland sounds for brass almost exclusively I find they work very well.

The most important thing to remember is that you have to think like a brass section! Keyboard players generally fail to do this when they play simulations of other instruments. You hear great guitar patches ruined by a lack of understanding about what a guitarist can actually play. Horn and string parts suffer the same fate.

Never play chords. Think in octaves and intervals, particularly forths and fifths. Or.. single lines!! Try not to play thirds, play a sixth instead. Phrasing to, is critical, just like guitar, horns don't phrase like piano.

The limitations of even a good set of velocity switched samples mean that you will have often have to thin out the actual parts and be a bit creative. Less is more!

I found that my trusty little Juno Di can produce some stunningly good brass parts, and the pc editor allows you to create zones within the patch to carry a blend of horns more suited to each register, typically Bari at the bottom, blending though tenor and bones then trumpets at the top. Try it! I'm sure something like this is possible on the Px.. It's very effective if you adjust the parts to suit. I have a cracking time with I Feel Good, Get Ready, Higher and Higher, Hold On.. Etc.. And there is not a horn player in sight! Lol

Also it's worth pointing out that adding just one real horn to this creates a stunning section. It's typical of what so many big acts do these days.. Watching Chic live last year, they had two horn players the rest was on keys.. Stevie Wonder three years back was similar.. With a little thought todays keys can do seriously good horns...

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Good advice HectorSpace. 40 odd years ago i had a band with a front line consisting of trumpet, sax and trombone. In those days, I was the guitarist, lead vocalist and arranger.

I was just recently needing to get a gutsy brass sound for Sea Cruise and set about building a hex tone ( I have drums on zone 1, brass on zone 2, piano on zone 3 and bass on zone 4, all controlled via MIDI Designer). Individually, played with just single nots, the tone was sounding great...it had saxes, trumpets, trom, and brass section filling all six layers. I played around with the hex layer mix using Mike Martin's MIDI Designer hex layer controls until I got it sounding just right. Then I put it into practice... It was dreadful!

I realised that all that I really needed was trumpet, sax and trom, just like I had used back in the day. I got rid of the rest and voila! You're right...I had forgotten that less is more!

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The most important thing to remember is that you have to think like a brass section! Keyboard players generally fail to do this when they play simulations of other instruments. You hear great guitar patches ruined by a lack of understanding about what a guitarist can actually play. Horn and string parts suffer the same fate.

 

Quite possibly one of the most insightful and useful pieces of advice I've seen in recent memory!  The way they're played is as much a part of their believeability as their timbre.  Well said, HectorSpace!

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  • 2 weeks later...

So, there's another part to the more perfect horn section.  I'm beginning to think that sometimes the best horn section is no horn section at all!  I was trying to emulate the horns in Love Shack and was getting close, but it just wasn't sounding right.  I have found that there are some fun things that you can do to change the timbre on the PX-5S to get closer, but it wasn't cutting it for me.  Then I thought, "I'm a keyboard player, maybe it should just be a keyboard part."  I've always felt that tune was kind of party/beachy, and I thought that the Vox Continental that Mike Martin uploaded might just do the trick.  Keyboardists have been using organs of some kind or another to simulate different instruments and ensembles for centuries.  I'm pleased with the results, although I want to keep working on the brass to see if I can get closer - just for the fun and challenge of it!

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