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Notes to Arranger [From external sequencer to CTK autoaccompaniment]


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Hi,

 

I have purchased CTK7200 3 days back. I have connected it to my laptop. Now I have THREE points to discuss:

 

i. Data Manager ver 6 - I have downloaded which is not working. [what is the link : Windows 7 - 32bit]

 

ii. I can record KB performaces + accompaniment to multiple trackes to cakewalk also I can play back. But I couldn't find  start/stop sync and MTC option on CTK7200.

 

iii. I have a track on cakewalk containing chords (holding). Can I trigger chords on auto-accompaniment on CTK7200 by playing back the chord track from cakewalk? If so, then on which MIDI channel should it be sent and what should be the setting.

 

Thanks

S Ghose

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I am using a WK-7500, but it is essentially the same unit as your CTK-7200, except for the number of keys.  I am afraid I do not have answers to all of your questions, but I will answer what I can as best I can and hope that someone more knowledgeable will jump in here and fill in the rest.

 

1.  I am not sure what your problem is with Data Manager 6.1 and what you mean by the "link: Windows 7 - 32 bit".  The same copies of Data Manager 6.0 and 6.1 will run under all versions of Windows since XP-Sp2: 32 or 64 bit.  I think you are seeing the links for the drivers.  In that case, you need to download the proper driver (32 or 64 bit) for your particular version of Windows, but the new CTK's and WK's are Fully Class Compliant and should be able to use the generic drivers that have been built into Windows since XP-SP2.  That is, they shouldn't really need any additional drivers, but if there are drivers available, it's not a bad idea to download and install them, as they will provide some additional high level features over and above the generic drivers.  If you are not sure what version of Windows you are running, open Windows Explorer (NOT Internet Explorer).  Right click on COMPUTER.  Left click on PROPERTIES.  Go down to the section labeled SYSTEM, and under SYSTEM TYPE it should tell you if it is a 32 or 64 bit system.  You can then download the proper drivers from the Casio Support Site.

 

2. Per the MIDI Implementation Chart for the CTK-7200, it will, by default, transmit start/stop sync and MTC, and these CAN NOT be turned off.  Likewise, by default, it will not receive (or recognize) incoming start/stop sync or MTC, and these CAN NOT be turned on.  That is, by design, the CTK-7200 is strictly a MIDI MASTER device.  It can not be a slave.  So, any other devices you connect it to will have to be set up as slaves.  This is why you are not finding any menu options for changing these parameters.  They can not be changed.  NOW . . . . That said . . . .  I was unable to get the WK-7500 to sync with any of my DAW programs, no matter how I set them up.  So  . . . good luck with that one !

 

3. I was not able to get Cakewalk Music Creator 4 or 6 or Sonar X1 or Cubase AI-4 or PG Music's Power Tracks Pro to control the Arranger section the way you would like.  The problem seems to be that the new CTK/WK-7X00 units have two completely separate 16 part multi-timbral sound sources.  Mixer Tracks A01 through A16 are for the Arranger functions (Upper voices 1 & 2, Lower voice, and the various accompaniment voices), and Mixer Tracks B01 through B16 are a straight forward 16 part multi-timbral sound source when using the unit as a remote sound module for an external sequencer or DAW.  It appears that anytime MIDI data is received from an external device, it is automatically directed to Tracks B01 through B16.  I was unable to redirect any external data into Tracks A01 through A16 for controlling the Arranger section.  This is where I am hoping that someone who has figured out a way to do this will chime in and give you a hand with it. I am a bit out of my league with this, as I have always had problems getting Arrangers to work well with DAW sequencers.  For that reason, I always just record to the internal sequencer, save it as an SMF to a USB drive or SD Card, as the case may be, and port that to my PC to do any editing or mastering with my DAW.  As long as I use my WK-7500 as a "synth workstation", it gets on well with Sonar, but as soon as I turn on the Arranger functions, I start having problems, so it is just simpler to go with the SD Card.

 

Good luck with this.

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Just FANTASTIC Ted :)

 

Nicely answered and thanks a ton for giving time for me.

 

I have downloaded Data Manager 6, which ran perfectly on a desktop with XP, but not working on my laptop having windows 7, 32bit. Error on Visual C++ runtime. I will try on weekend to uninstall Visual studio and then will see or I will try with backward compatibility mode.

 

Regarding using CTK as slave you have explained that why it cannot be done.

 

I dont have another keyboard. Have you tried to send left hand fingered chords from a second keyboard to CTK/WK while on ACCOMP mode?

 

Nice to discuss with you.

Have nice time.

 

Regards

S Ghose

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Sorry !  No direct connection between keyboards with these guys.  They are USB-MIDI only.  Only connection is with a PC (DAW), but problem appears to be that ALL incoming MIDI is wired directly to the "B" (sound module) Tracks while the "A" (arranger) Tracks are internal only.  Need to rack up the CTK-6000 later this evening and try something with it.  If I get what I suspect, it will pretty much prove my point.  Will report back in a few hours.

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A surprise   -   An enigma   -   And an answer - Finally !

 

There was a lot of sales hype about the CTK/WK-7X00's Pattern Sequencer (and rightly so), but very little mention of its Song Sequencer, which is surprising, since it is either a 32 track unit or two 16 track units - depending on how you look at it.  At the same time, the sales hype about the CTK/WK-6X00's made bold reference to their SEVENTEEN track Song Sequencer.  Odd claim !  Most full blown keyboard sequencers (Not MIDI RECORDERS) I have seen have 16 tracks.  Of course, the 6X00's do not have a Pattern Sequencer.  So, I took them at their word - the 7X00's have two 16 trackers, and the 6X00's, being lower priced units, have only a single 17 (?) tracker.  I thought this might help me find an answer for Mr. Ghose.  It appears that only the B-Tracks on the 7X00's receive MIDI messages, while the A-Tracks (the ones that control the arranger section) do not - which is what he wants to do.  So if the 6X00's have only a single 17 (?) track sequencer, then its tracks must have to do double duty and handle both the arranger functions and remote sound module functions and might provide a clue of how to remotely control the 7X00's arranger section, BUT . . . BUT . . . BUT . . . once I dug deep enough into the manuals, to my surprise, I find that the Song Sequencers in ALL of these units - the CTK-6000, the WK-6500, the CTK-7000, and the WK-7500 . . . ARE EXACTLY THE SAME.  Why Casio hypes the 17 tracks in the 6X00's and mentions the 32 tracks in the 7X00's I have no idea.  But, it goes downhill from here.  Most of us are familiar with MIDI Type 0 and MIDI Type 1 - as it applies to MIDI "FILES" - with Type 0 having all tracks on a single channel and Type 1 having the tracks fanned out across the channels with one track per channel.  It appears that the Casio 6X00/7X00 operating system, or at least the Song Sequencer, looks internally at its "TRACKS" the same way.  Per the manual, the System "Track" actually consists of 17 individual tracks - the 16 "A" (arranger related) tracks plus an extra 17th track, as though the System Track is a Type 0 MIDI "track" with 17 individual tracks in it.  So I guess it naturally follows that the 17th track is a MIDI 0 track containing the 16 "B" (sound module receiving) tracks.  Maybe all sequencers are designed this way, and I have just never had occasion to dig into it this deeply, but I was extremely surprised.  Wow !  What a fete of ledgerdemain !  How to make 17 tracks look like 32, or better yet, how to make ONE track look like 32. Sure wish I could do that with the green stuff in my wallet !  I backed off at this point, as the thought process was getting very convoluted, plus I needed to get this posted.  Maybe I will get back to it some dark and dreary night when I need something interesting to read that will help me drop off to sleep.

 

And now . . . I have an answer for Mr. Ghose that should bring this to a close.  Page 7 of the WK-7500 MIDI Implementation Chart lists the Arranger items that are TRANSMITTED via MIDI, but makes no mention of what Arranger items are RECEIVED via MIDI, but the final answer is on Page 8 with the statement that only the "B" Tracks (the non-Arranger related tracks that allow using the WK-7500 as a remote MIDI sound module) are capable of receiving MIDI messages.  So, all incoming MIDI messages are sent directly to the "B" Tracks and have no connection to the Arranger section.

 

Sorry I did not come up with a better answer, but maybe this will keep some others from spending a lot of time and energy on this issue, only to come away disappointed.

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Hi Ted,

 

You explained nicely as usual !!

 

My motto was with pattern sequencer I will create my own pattern for accompaniment. Then drive the accompaniment with sequenced chord chart. So I wanted to drive from external sequncer.

 

Today I have done it in a bit different way. I have used CTK's own 'Music Preset' - I created the chord sequence around 200  measures (we can go upto 999 measures) and assigned my own pattern to it. played back and through MIDI I recodred on Cakewalk. I can change the instruments and also I can drive my Motif Rack module by that.

 

It was convenient using STEP mode of creating chord sequence in Music Preset with it auto-increment measure count.

 

Then I played back from cakewalk. They rhythm and accompaniment was sounding good and tried to record lead music part to another track of cakewalk...... Here I got disappointed :((

 

I came accross latency issue. I strike a key and the sound coming late.. it was 3/4 with tempo 134. The lag is about 00:00:045.

 

Even I tried the most premitive way : CTK USB (MIDI Out) as MIDI Input of Cakewalk -> Cakewalk MIDI Out -> Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth. I am bnot being able to play realtime to record with this latency. It is Cakewalk Pro Audio, not SONAR. Using USB 2.0 Port for CTK.

 

Now banging my head.

Any help please....?

 

Thanks & Regards

S Ghose

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As I was shutting down the other evening, I was wondering if you could possibly do something with the Music Presets.  Sorry, I have not had a chance to get back to that to check it out, but looks like you have already figured it out.  Not sure I could have done it that fast.

 

Your latency problem really bothers me.  If you were using either the CTK's tones or the Motif as your sound module, that's pure MIDI.  MIDI is essentially zero latency, so there should have been no detectable delay.  Latency normally comes from VST synths.  Make sure Pro-Audio has not inserted either the CTK or the Motif into one of its tracks as a "virtual" VST.  I know some of the DAW's can do that (insert "real" hardware synths as VST's) so that as the user, all yoiu have to deal with is VST's.  If that is the case, then the PC and Pro-Audio would both be inserting any of their delays into your MIDI path.  I wish I had a more definite answer for you, but instead I will answer your question with a question.  Is there a chance you could do more (most/all) of your MIDI recording on the CTK instead of the PC ?  I was only able to cure my latency and sync problems by getting away from the PC entirely and going to a zero-latency stand-alone Fostex 8-tracker (audio) that records to a Compact Flash Card as it syncs to a MIDI clock.  It also cured all of my ground loop hum problems at the same time.  Then, if I need to do any editing, I port my data to the PC on an SD or Compact Flash Card or Flash Drive, as the case may be, and do it strictly in the PC.  It seems it's always when the PC has to communicate with some external device during the recording process that the latency/sync problems creep in.

 

Waiting for your next installment !  Good luck !

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As a test this evening, I connected the WK-7500 to the PC (USB) running Sonar and output that (via USB) to the Yamaha PSR-E433, using the E433 as a sound module using its default piano voice.  The E433, like the WK-7500 is a USB only device.  When I played the WK-7500, I did not detect any discernible delay (latency} in the sound from the E433.  I then replaced the E433 with an old Roland SC-88 Sound Canvas module.  The SC-88 is a 5-pin-DIN-MIDI-IN/OUT device that requires the use of a USB-to-MIDI-DIN adapter between it and the PC's USB port.  Again, I did not discern any latency between the WK and the SC-88.  I repeated these tests with both the E433 and the SC-88 using Cakewalk's Music Creator 4 and 6, but still was not able to detect any latency, which further leads me to believe that your latency problem must be coming either from your PC hardware or drivers or from Pro Audio.  I have attached a link to a Sound-On-Sound review of Pro Audio 9.  In it is a discussion on the use of ASIO vs MME drivers and their effects on latency when used with Pro Audio 9's "Wavepipe".

 

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec99/articles/cakewalk.htm

 

That review also criticized Cakewalk's continued lack of support (at that time) for VST synths, so that pretty well negates that argument in my previous post unless you have a later version of Pro Audio that does support VSTi's, but I think 9 was the last version they released.

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