Can a slider be the source of a virtual controller?

[BrettM]

Page E-29 of the manual says "Controllers are numbered 1 though 8, and are assigned to the (5) sliders (1/9  through  8/16)". This suggests that the sliders are related to virtual controllers in some way. But how?

[Jokeyman123]

Good question, I'd like the answer to that one too. Is there a midi implementation chart for the XWs? I'll have to check it out, little late right now. Because might be a way to control stuff in my PX-350 which I have been trying without much success to do.

[- T -]

Posted in error !

 

Please disregard !

[- T -]

Brett

 

What Page 29 of the manual is saying is that you should be able to assingn a Control Change (CC) message to a slider and connect that to a tone parameter.  They have you go back to Page 21 and select a Preset tone, but I just started by creating a single part (Syn1) saw wave, assigned CC10 (normally a PAN message) to Slider-1, and pointed it at the Syn1 envelope's attack time, and it worked.  As I varied Slider-1, the Syn1 attack time changed, but as soon as I saved my work an exited Edit Mode back to Tone Mode, Slider-1 went back to its hardware default function of controlling the volume of Syn1.  As soon as I went back into Edit Mode for that tone, my Slider-1 assignment began working again.  I did not see anything in the manual that stated you had to be in Edit Mode for this to work.  If I understand the manual correctly, my assignment should transmit CC10 Controller messages when Slider-1 is moved and any incoming CC10 messages on the associated MIDI channel should affect the Syn1 attack time.  In normal Tone Mode, my tone sent MIDI Note-On and Note-Off messages to my DAW and Slider-1 sent its default RPN MSB/LSB messages along with a volume value, but in Edit Mode, while my Slider-1 assignment worked, only Note-On/Note-Off data was sent to my DAW - no Controller messages at all.  In Edit Mode, incoming CC10 messages had no noticeable effect on my tone at all, in either mode.  Knowing that there are some items that only work in Performance Mode, I created a new Performance with my simple little tone in it, but I still got the same results.  The Owner's Manual and the MIDI Implementation have conflicting statements on this.  They state that in Drawbar Mode, Drawbar messages are sent by the sliders, but when NOT in Drawbar  Mode, one passage says the sliders send DSP Controller messages, while another passage says they send predefined default Controller messages, and that passage on Page 29 tells how to re-assign the sliders to do what you want (which only works part way - sort of).  Thinking I was missing something, I repeated all steps four more times, but always with the same result.  I'm sure there is something I am missing.  If anyone has figured this out, hopefully they will chime in here and give us a hint.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Jokeyman

 

You can download the XW MIDI Implementations from the Casio download website:

 

http://support.casio.com/en/manual/manualfile.php?cid=008014001    for XW-P1

 

http://support.casio.com/en/manual/manualfile.php?cid=008014002    for XW-G1

[AlenK]

Curiouser and curiouser. Myself, I would have interpreted the text "...and are assigned to the sliders (1/9 through 8/16)" on page E-29 of the XW-P1 manual to mean that the DEPTH of each of the eight virtual controllers is assigned to one of the first eight sliders in order, and furthermore ONLY as a convenience during editing of the virtual controllers. (DEPTH because that is the only continuously-variable parameter that can be specified for virtual controllers, excluding the control sources themselves.) I would NOT have interpreted the text as allowing a control source (such as CC#10 in Ted's example) to be assigned to a slider and hence the slider acting as if it is that control source, which Ted's experiment seems to indicate is the case. I WOULD have expected a CC#10 message (following Ted's example) input on the solo-synth's input MIDI channel to control the chosen destination parameter (attack time in this case) in Tone or Performance mode, which Ted's experiment seems to indicate is NOT happening.

The plot, as they used to say, thickens.

UPDATE: Now that I have access to my P1 I messed around with the virtual controllers again. I had never bothered operating the sliders when I did that previously. Surprise, surprise, all they do FOR ME is to switch between the virtual controllers. That is, when you move one it switches the editing screen to the corresponding virtual controller. Just that and nothing else. Somewhat useless since you can switch between them using the PART+ and PART- buttons and there are only eight (so not like you need quick random access). I could not replicate what Ted describes, assigning a slider to act like it is adjusting the parameter for whatever CC# is selected as the source.

[BrettM]

Alen, I was hoping you especially would know the answer to this one.

 

What I was trying to do was set up a cross fader between two blocks of the solo synth, say synth1 to pcm1, so I could have one sound seamlessly morph into another. I would normally reach for the knobs to assign volume adjustments, but playing the keyboard and trying to twiddle two knobs simultaneously is difficult. But two adjacent sliders, one with +ve depth, the other with -ve depth, with the appropriate amp volumes set as the destinations is tailor made for the job. And it works, so long as I am in block 10, i.e., VirtualCtrl>Enter. So the sliders do more than just select between virtual controllers in edit mode. But as soon as I exit back one step, the sliders revert to their default usage. This is what Ted has experienced too, I think. I've been trying this with sliders 7 and 8, with their source parameter showing as "off". So I though I must not have the right CC or whatever showing in the source, hence my question at the start of the post - how do I make a slider itself a permanent source of a virtual controller? If this is possible, it means we will have eight assignable sliders in addition to the four assignable knobs. And the cryptic statement on page E-29 suggests it might be possible. 

[BrettM]

As an aside, a silent phrase sequence that prerecords controller movement might be another way to create the cross fade I'm after, but I would be interested in getting to the bottom of the slider question.

[- T -]

Alen

 

All you are doing, at the stage you are at - switching sliders by moving them or pressing the PART +/- buttons - is just SELECTING the one you want to edit.  Once you have the correct one selected, you have to press the ENTER button to access the edit pages for that slider.

 

 

 

Brett

 

If you follow all the way through the slider assignment process - starting on Page 21 then going to Page 29 - when you go back to Step 4  on page 21, they have you press EDIT to exit the editing process and then press WRITE to save your work.  This would make it appear that the assumption on the part of the manual is that this assignment process should work in the "normal" modes - that is, outside of the "edit" mode.  So far, neither one of us has been able to do that, but I think it is important to note how the manual writers "thought" this should work.  Either they, and their manual, are wrong, or we are missing something.

[AlenK]

Alen

 

All you are doing, at the stage you are at - switching sliders by moving them or pressing the PART +/- buttons - is just SELECTING the one you want to edit.  Once you have the correct one selected, you have to press the ENTER button to access the edit pages for that slider.

 

Ah, I didn't get that from your previous description.  I will try it tonight.  NONE of this is in the manual, of course.  It tells you to press ENTER when the cursor is on the "VirtualCont - > Ent" menu item to edit the virtual controllers but it doesn't tell you to press ENTER again to access editing pages for the sliders that it also fails to mention even exist.  I had no idea they were there.  (BTW,  didn't I say somewhere here that I wanted a synth that would provide endless challenges? The XW-P1 delivers again! )

 

[- T -]

Alen

 

Yeah, I guess you are correct.  I thought that between Pages 21 and 29 ALL of that was in the manual, but now as I think about it, I stumbled across what you missed strictly by accident.  At some point I noticed that if I moved a slider, the display would change to its number and it finally sunk in that I was "selecting" that slider.  From there, came an eventual realization that I should be able to do the same with the PART +/- buttons.  At this point, I had decided to back out and meant to hit the EXIT button, but hit ENTER by mistake and there was the slider edit menu.  You have to understand that by this time, it was around 4 AM, so that realization was a   v e r y   s  l  o  w   process, but you are right - this thing is a never ending puzzle.  The Rubik's Cube was a snap compared to this.  At least with it, you could "see" what needed to be changed.  The XW's are very adept at hiding their secrets !

 

You might be interested in the last several posts in the "step sequencer to drive external drum machine" thread.  That has been another nightmare, but it looks like BradMZ and XW-Addict have pretty well put that one to bed for us, unless rothers runs into some more problems when he tries it tonight.  I don't think it was a problem of anything missing from the manual on this one, but a case of just difficulty understanding the manual.  I think a lot of equipment gets by with less than ideal manuals, because the equipment itself is somewhat intuitive - few surprises, but not so with these XW's.  At almost every turn, you run into things that are just the opposite of what you would expect, and unless someone gets you back on track, you spend hours or days chasing your own tail.

[AlenK]

Ted,

Are you running v1.11? I'm not, I'm still on V1.10. I don't get anything when I press ENTER while I'm in a virtual controller menu, regardless of which virtual controller is selected or how I selected it (part buttons or slider).

[Brad Saucier]

Ted, are you referring to the destination parameters?  This is the only thing I can find on the G1.  

 

I was able to get the sliders to adjust the destination. Turn up the depth and assign something like LFO/Rate as the destination.  The source can be off and the slider still works to control the destination. I think the sliders temporarily work as the source while in edit mode just for editing purposes. 

[- T -]

OK Guys !

I am still on XW-P1 Firmware Version 1.10

Now, we are going to take a preset tone and set up Sliders 1 and 2 to vary Synth1 and 2 Osc pitches respectively.

If your XW is powered on, power it off so we all know we are starting on the same page.

1. Power the XW ON.

2. If it is not in Tone mode, press the Tone button to put it into Tone mode.

3. Select Solo Synth Tone "SOL : P : 1 - 1"  (XW LeadSyn 1)

4. Press the EDIT button.
    This takes you to Synth Edit Page 1 of 3.
    Osc Block will be selected.

5. Arrow Down 3 times to Synth Edit Page 2 of 3.
    Virtual Ctrl will be selected.
    This is the one we are looking for.
    The option shown at right is to press ENTER.
    Press ENTER.
    This takes you to Virtual Controller Edit Page 1 of 2 for Slider-1.
    Source is selected.

7. Rotate the data wheel clockwise to a Source of CC09.

8. Leave Depth at +127.

9. Arrow Down twice to Virtual Controller Edit Page 2 fo 2 for Slider-1.
    Dest is selected and is set to Synth1 PortaTime.
    Arrow Down once to PortaTime.
    Rotate the data wheel counter clockwise all the way back to Oscillator.
    Even though the selection is already set to Pitch, you still have to

    arrow down to it or the edit function won't pick it up.

 

Give it a try. Play a note as you run Slider-1 up and down.
You should hear the pitch running up and down.

Now - on this same page - press the PART + button once.
Notice at the top of the display that you are now on the same page
but for Slider-2 with Dest Synth1 still selected. Rotate the data wheel clockwise
one notch to change Dest to Synth2.  Arrow Down once and crank the data wheel
counter clockwise all the way back to Oscillator.  Once again, arrow down to Pitch

so that the edit function knows that is what you want.  Arrow up 4 times and set this Source
also to CC09.

Give that a try.  Play a note as you run Slider2 up and down.  Hear the pitch change ?
Try it as you run Sliders 1 and 2 up and down.  You should hear Synth1 and Synth2 changing pitch.

Now, according to the manual, we should press EDIT to exit the EDIT mode and save our work
to a User Tone, but if we do, I guarantee we will lose what we just established.  If we press EXIT
to exit EDIT mode we will lose it.  If if we do a WRITE to a User Tone right here in EDIT mode, we
will still lose our work.  It all works fine as long as we stay right here.  The one thing that is different
tonight is that I can not go back into EDIT mode and my Slider assignments start working again like
they did last night, but I discovered this afternoon that Sonar had screwed up my XW last night and
I had to do a factory reset this afternoon.  Since then, going back into EDIT mode will not recover
my assignments.

If I understand the masnual correctly, with the assignments working, when we move Sliders 1 or 2,
they should transmit CC09 messages on their corresponding MIDI channels and when an external
device sends CC09 messages on their corresponding MIDI channels, it should vary the Osc pitches
of Synth 1 and 2 respectively, but I was never able to get that to work at all - either direction.

So, at this point, I don't know if we have a feature that is working as intended and was just misunderstood
by the manual writers, or a feature that was never fully engineered or developed as intended.  Looks like
it's anybody's guess on that one.


  

[Brad Saucier]

OK.  So I was seeing everything.  Pheww....  Thought I was loosing it for a moment.  

[BrettM]

There doesn't seem to be any way to permanently save the slider assignment so I'm tending to agree with Brad - the sliders work as sources only while in virtual controller edit mode. Back out even one step and the sliders revert to their default behaviour. This is a solo synth effect, it won't carry over to a performance . You can't access virtual controller edit mode from within a performance. You have to be in tone mode, editing the solo synth tone. The depths and destinations are saved however, so you can set these and go back to virtual controller edit mode any time you like and have your sliders working again.

 

Ted, I tried your process and got the same results. But you don't have to have CC09 selected as the source. The sliders work while in edit mode, even when the source is set to off. Which is another reason why I think this is edit mode only behaviour. When you think about it, given the host of different uses for the sliders already, if Casio allowed the sliders to be reassigned, people would be tying their XWs up into all sorts of knots.

 

But this is not all bad, it does mean we can have eight assignable virtual slider controllers so long as we stay in edit mode, and this opens up many interesting possibilities. G1 owners, like me, can access different oscillators without having to select them with the (2) switches (the drawbar switches on the P1). This is what led me to discover this behaviour in the first place: in solo synth mode on the P1 you can adjust oscillator levels across the oscillators so you can do a cross fade by running one slider up and the other slider down. Not so on a G1 where, although the sliders can access many more solo synth parameters, you have to work with one oscillator at a time. Now you don't. And a cross fade with +ve depth on one slider and -ve depth on the other is a much better way to do it, available on both models.

 

Although it may seem a bit clunky, I can imagine performing in virtual edit mode, just so you can create some interesting slider effects.

 

This behaviour may also be very useful to P1 owners. It makes a P1 more like a G1. (These synths are closely related. Just as you can coax a multiple layer mode and a drawbar organ out of a G1, you can also coax G1-like behaviour out of a P1). P1 owners can now set up the sliders to access many of the solo synth parameters (destinations), just like on a G1. I have found this extremely powerful, especially for creating envelopes. If I had a P1, I would now save a few "blank" solo synths with various envelope and other destinations set up to serve as editing areas for tweaking other tones I was working on. E.g., work out the envelope you want in one of the "blank" tones, then copy the settings across to the main tone I was interested in. There may be other useful ways to exploit this new slider behaviour.

 

But this still does not explain the mysterious quote on page E-29.

[AlenK]

Ted,

 

First of all, thank you big time for the detailed instructions. I appreciate how much work went into posting all that. 

 

Second, I hereby nominate you for Most Awesome XW-P1 User In The Universe.  Really.  You discovered an important, undocumented (by and large) feature of the XW-P1.  I just knew there were hidden things in there to be found ("easter eggs").  Heck, with the state of that user manual how could there not be?  Maybe the Casio engineers didn't really intend for this particular feature to be there - it just hung around in the code from something they were trying experimentally and they forgot to remove it - or maybe they did intend it and just forget to tell us about it (it's debatable whether the manual even hints at it, since several interpretations of that one line Brett quoted on page E-29 are possible - your interpretation turned out to be true!).

 

As Brett mentioned, this functionality doesn't seem to care what modulation source is selected; it acts independently.  And as everyone so far has noted it doesn't seem to exist outside of the Virtual Controller (VC) editing pages.  And you can't save any of the changes it makes to the sound in the tone itself.  But nevertheless it seems useful.  As Brett has already said, with only a few keystrokes (e.g., use the right arrow once instead of the down arrow three times to get to the VirtualCont - > Ent menu item) you are there with another, completely programmable set of sliders for the solo-synth tone. And the resulting changes seem to survive going back into Performance or Sequence mode, as long as you don't change to any other tone.  The sliders revert back to controlling the volume levels of the oscillators but the changes you already made in the VC menu using the sliders aren't affected.  And they survive going back into the VC edit menu, so you can alternate between these modes with a few keystrokes.  Brilliant.

 

I have to say though that something about this functionality is a little flakey. I lost it entirely a couple of times for no apparent reason, which may explain why it didn't seem to work for me last night.  However, I couldn't replicate how I lost it.

 

So now I am concerned wth the fact that your CC#'s didn't work as VC sources when input from MIDI.  That's what they are supposed to do!  Are you certain you are inputting on the MIDI channel that is programmed for part/zone 1 in the current performance (which seems to default to MIDI channel 1)?  And that MIDI IN is turned on in the general MIDI settings?

[Brad Saucier]

Don't forget the bender wheel.  I put lfo rate as the destination and bend up as the source and the effect was very cool.  Or am I just easily amused? 

[- T -]

Alen

 

Most of the thanks on this should go to Brett.  As I said at the outset, I do not usually use a keyboard in this manner.  It's just that Brett's question had been sitting out there for a couple of days without generating any comments, and that particular night, I couldn't sleep and was looking for something to get involved in, so I grabbed it and ran with it, but left strictly to my own devices, I would have never come across this.  Somewhere during the process, I realized that it really didn't seem to matter whether I assigned a CC code as a source or not, but I continued to include reference to it as my interpretation of the manual was that the main thrust of this was to turn the XW into a MIDI controller (at least the sliders, anyway) for controlling external devices and that control of internal tones was just a secondary benefit.  Just as I knew that use of the right and left arrows are a quicker way into and out of the higher menu pages, but I wrote it up using the up/down arrows to force you guys into going through all of the pages so that you would see everything that is available in the edit menus.  Sorry, I guess that is the old instructor in me.  I also have had the problem of a slider assignment going away, but sometimes they will also come back for no apparent reason.  Like I said at the end of my write-up, my brain had had about enough at that point, especially with the unexplained aspects of this, but now I need to go back in and check on the MIDI CC issues.  I think I have all the basic MIDI stuff set up correctly, but you may have hinted at the problem.  I'm not sure I have the CC signals routed to the proper zone(s).  I think this may be something that Mike has hinted at in his answers on various issues.  Most of us have been spoiled by our older keyboards, where some (many ? / most ?) items are just applied globally to the entire board, where those same items on the XW's are applied all the way down at the zone, or performance, or tone, or tone-part level, and if you don't get that right, it won't work.  We can not expect any coddling from the XW's.  Versatility has it price.  At any rate, I will probably have to find something other than Sonar for checking out the CC issues, as Sonar sends something to the XW, other than a LOCAL OFF, that shuts down the entire sound engine and requires a complete factory reset to restore.  I have Cubase, but I haven't used it for so long, I would probably have to go back through most of its learning curve.  I really never got on well with Cubase.  It's the AI-4 version that came with my Motif XS.  Maybe I will just try to keep this as simple as possible and use Anvil Studio.  Its Event Viewer is about the best I have ever seen.  Wish me luck !

[AlenK]

Alen

 

Most of the thanks on this should go to Brett.  As I said at the outset, I do not usually use a keyboard in this manner.  It's just that Brett's question had been sitting out there for a couple of days without generating any comments, and that particular night, I couldn't sleep and was looking for something to get involved in, so I grabbed it and ran with it, but left strictly to my own devices, I would have never come across this.

 

(snip).....

 

Wish me luck !

 

Sure, I give Brett props for asking the question.  But it was you who found the answer.  Wear the crown with pride. 

 

...

 

Luck!

[BrettM]

Alen,

 

I think I can claim a bit more involvement than merely asking the right question. I initially noticed the sliders worked in virtual controller edit mode while trying to create a cross fader on a G1 prior to posting the question, see post #6. It wasn't just a wild card thrown out for someone to catch. This is something that has been missed in previous discussions of virtual controllers and sliders on this forum, e.g.:

 

http://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/topic/4807-how-to-use-the-virtual-control/

 

and

 

http://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/topic/4962-editing-solo-synth-with-sliders/

 

I've also pointed out some of the implications of this for G1 and P1 users, see post #15; and I still think we haven't got to the bottom of it. I don't think the answer has been found yet. Once we think we've found the answer, we stop experimenting.

[AlenK]

Oops, sorry about that, Brett. Didn't mean to minimize your contribution. But by your question that started the thread it didn't sound like you had discovered this functionality before Ted posted his reply. Post number 6 didn't really clear that up (for me).

As for the way this new "feature" works, now that I managed to replicate what Ted described so completely (you have to applaud him for doing all that) I do believe I understand what is going on. It didn't work for me the first few times I tried it, proving that it is a little bit flakey. So it could well be an experimental or untested feature as I said and that would further explain why the manual says practically nothing about it (I would say it actually doesn't say anything about it - that line on page E-29 proves nothing).

But hey, what do I know about how synthesizers, electronics, and embedded processors actually work or how products of this complexity and general nature are designed? I have only been studying this stuff for over thirty years and designed similarly complex electronics most of my professional life.

Personally, I don't believe you will be able to do what you're hoping to do and will have to live with this undocumented feature as is. But if you discover any further functionality of the sliders please let us know.

[BrettM]

Well Alen, you've got a lot more experience than I have. I'm just a swot who reads manuals carefully. Even manuals that most people hate.

 

Ted did spell it out well, and now that he's climbing under the hood with MIDI he may come up with some new things yet. I've got to read a MIDI manual before I'll be able to do that.

[AlenK]

You'll have to spell out exactly how the manual describes that. I must be too dumb to figure it out.

On second thought don't bother. I'm done here.

[- T -]

Posted in error !

 

Please disregard.

[XW-Addict]

Alen,

 

I think I can claim a bit more involvement than merely asking the right question. I initially noticed the sliders worked in virtual controller edit mode while trying to create a cross fader on a G1 prior to posting the question, see post #6. It wasn't just a wild card thrown out for someone to catch. This is something that has been missed in previous discussions of virtual controllers and sliders on this forum, e.g.:

 

http://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/topic/4807-how-to-use-the-virtual-control/

 

and

 

http://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/topic/4962-editing-solo-synth-with-sliders/

 

I've also pointed out some of the implications of this for G1 and P1 users, see post #15; and I still think we haven't got to the bottom of it. I don't think the answer has been found yet. Once we think we've found the answer, we stop experimenting.

 

Please dont stop experimenting . you're Fooled again patch wowed me how I tried and tried and not succeeded along you came up with this.

The stuff you guy's wrote about this will keep me bussy for day's and I already have so much homework as well courses from my job to do aaaah. ^^