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Arpeggios !


Bigmark

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I have been trying to create a hexlayer ( the classic organ at the beginning of the Who's wont get fooled again) rather miserably I must say.

The closest I can get is using the 8 beat arpeggio but I can't get it to be built into the user preset is there a way of doing this ?

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A great song. This detail from Wikipedia may help:

 

Quote

Townshend is playing block chords spread between the two keyboards of the 1968 Lowrey Berkshire Deluxe TBO-1 organ. The output of the organ is fed into the audio input of the EMS VCS 3 mk1 synth. The first bit of processing to be applied to the organ sound is a low-frequency oscillator (LFO) controlling the frequency of a voltage-controlled filter (VCF), using a sine or triangle wave shape. In other words, the synth is turning the tone of the organ from mellow to bright, up and down automatically.

 

And there is this from YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5voNyRmvXs

 

 

(from a comment to the video: "Most likely on the record, it's the third oscillator on the VCS-3 sweeping the filter, and the trapezoid generator controlling the output. The trapezoid generator was the VCS-3's very unusual envelope generator, which could be set to create a looping effect, effectively turning it into a second LFO. By setting the attack and decay controls to zero, and then setting the "on" and "off" controls to the same settings, you get a square wave, which is what's giving you the sort of pulsing effect.”)

 

So I don't think you will be entirely successful with a Hex Layer tone because the filters aren't sweepable in real time and neither of the Hex Layer's LFOs can control the filters. You CAN modulate the amplitude with an LFO and this will give a similar chopped/pulsed effect but going by the description above it will not sound exactly the same because the filter(s) would need to be swept as well at a much slower rate.

 

UPDATE: You could in principle simulate a filter sweep by using a phrase or a control track on the step sequencer that operates knob K1 with that set to control cutoff frequency, which is the default assignment. The filter cutoff will then update only on every note but given how over-riding the chopping/pulsing is you might not be able to hear the difference.

 

Given that the original was an organ sound processed by an analog synth I think you might get reasonably close by routing one of the P1's PCM organ tones (assuming any of them sounds similar enough to that particular Lowrey organ - I'm not near my P1 to audition them) or a combination of up to three layered/split PCM tones, through the solo synth's filter (how to do that has been described before here).

You will have to modulate the filter's cutoff frequency (don't use any resonance) with one of the LFOs set to a square wave with a fairly fast rate (to match the rhythm of the pulsing) and using a fairly large amplitude. This should drive the filter's cutoff so low it will be like suddenly turning down the volume on the whole thing (thus simulating applying a square wave LFO to the VCA on a real analog synth where it is positioned after the filter, which the P1's solo synth doesn't have: it uses the virtual equivalent of VCA after each oscillator instead). Then set the second LFO to modulate the amplitude (depth) of the first LFO using a sine or triangle wave with a slow rate and moderate depth. You will need a virtual controller to do that. That should take care of the slow filter sweep (ensure nothing else modulates the filter's cutoff) during the times when the first LFO's waveform is high.

 

UPDATE: I simplified my description above 'cause it was a little bit confusing!

 

What you don't want happening is the phase of the LFO's resetting with every note. I'm not certain that setting LFO sync to "off" allows them to free run. You will have to try it and see. If not, then syncing to the clock might work. If not again, this approach just isn't going to work.

If the above approaches don't work then you could try programming the whole thing in the step sequencer. Set your PCM organ tone(s) to the mixer parts that correspond to the sequencer tracks you are using. Or use a Hex Layer tone without an amplitude LFO and set the Solo 1 track to play part/zone 1. In either case the pulsing should be achievable by choosing a note length of, say, 50%. By using one or more control tracks you can modulate the filter cutoff frequency of the PCM tone(s) or the Hex Layer tone slowly during the length of a 16-note sequence. Chain multiple patterns together to get the whole thing.

 

You will likely have to save the whole thing as a Performance (because of the interactions). If you use the solo synth approach you'll also be giving up the solo synth for making tones but that should be okay if you're trying to actually perform the song as it was recorded.

Personally, I wouldn't use the arpeggiator. While it can play more than one note at a time in any chord that you finger (which is essential here) I don't see how a single arpeggio pattern can give you all the progressions I am hearing in that part of the song. If you don't elect to use the total step sequencer approach and assuming either of the solo synth or Hex Layer approaches works (thus taking care of the pulsing) just play the chords on the keyboard in real time, which is what Pete did. It doesn't sound overly difficult (says he who has not tried it himself!)

 

If or when you are successful please share the resulting files with us here, or at the very least an mp3. I'm sure I speak for more than myself when I say I'd love to hear how close you get.

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How about a competition to see who gets the who on their XW synth ?

Don't get fooled again XW style .

Being a person who doesn't know how their dual heating system in the car works after two years I don't hold out much hope of being in the top ten, but I'll give it my best shot !

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While you're at it, how about the sound from the Who's Baba O'Reilly?  That one's been putting the kurzweil guys into fits for the past week over on the Mastering V.A.S.T forums.  ;)

 

Sometimes there's just no substitute for vintage gear when it comes to reproducing certain sounds ;)

 

Gary

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I've just added my attempt to the P1 download area. Don't automatically reach for a hex layer for vintage sounds. They didn't have 'em in them days.

 

Mike Martin and BradMZ have done some work on Baba O'Reilly on the PX-5S, so they may have some ideas.

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Brett, Fooled Again sounds pretty good on the G1.  Nice!  

The PX-5s has this one covered quite well out of the box.  It has a preset stage setting called "Who's Fooled?"   Created by Mike I think.  The PX-5s has control tracks on its arpeggiators. An arp is set to control filtering rhythmically.  It sounds really good. 

As far as Baba O'Reilly.   The organ tone can be matched pretty close on the PX-5s.  The arpeggio pattern is the real trick.  There's no good substitute for the lowrey organ's marimba repeat function.  On the 5s I was able to use 4 arpeggiators to somewhat simulate the marimba repeat. Otherwise, without marimba repeat, one would need to do a bit of arpeggio programming to create all of the variations that is possible by just playing the marimba repeat in various ways.

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Thanks Brad,

 

I've noticed that there is some low frequency clunking going on as the two LFOs fight over the filter. PT may have done it with two filters in series. The LFOs can be separated on the solo synth by setting LFO2 to modulate the PCM1 amp rather than the filter, but this does not carry over to the performance. I suppose in the performance one could just set up the filter sweep and play eighth note chords.

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PT may have done it with two filters in series.

 

There is only one filter (VCF) in the EMS VCS 3.  My suggestion to modulate the XW's filter with cascaded (multiplied) LFOs was an attempt to replicate, using only the solo-synth resources available to us, the gated (pulsed) sound that is actually more idiomatic of the intro than the slower filter sweep.  If the solo-synth architecture in the XW used a virtual VCA after the virtual VCF, as most analog and virtual-analog synths do, the pulsing would be a piece of cake - just route the faster square-wave LFO to modulate the VCA. But that's not how the XW does it so we have to get creative or find another way entirely.  Recreating the pulsing (gating) is essential and even more important than the filter sweep.

 

Here's more detail about how Pete accomplished it.  The Wikipedia entry I quoted earlier apparently cribbed from this source:

http://www.thewho.net/whotabs/gear/guitar/lowrey.html

 

It also gives even more info on how to do Baba O'Riley (which by strange coincidence I was listening to on the radio this morning on my commute to work).  This particular web page is a gold mine. Note also the links just below the title for guitar tabs (which you should be able to turn into actual pitches after a little study, even if you don't play guitar).

 

PS.  Here's even more about the how the VCS 3 works.  This video is actually about a Synthi Model A, but that model has AFAIK exactly the same controls as a VCS 3, just physically arranged differently.  

 

Notice in this video a description of how the envelope generator can retrigger itself, basically turning into a second LFO.  I had wondered where the square wave modulating the VCA came from if the dedicated LFO (there is only one) was already sweeping the filter.  It could have come from yet another external piece of gear but no one mentioned anything.  Now we know.

 

 

Did I mention how much I love this stuff!! :D

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Alen, that last page you referenced was what I reading when I was working on Baba O Reilly for the PX-5s.   Without that description of the marimba repeat (which was the first time had ever heard of it)  I would've gone mad trying to figure it out.  It's such a simple setup on that old organ but so complicated to recreate on modern gear.  In reality the marimba repeat is only 2 arpeggiators synced.  The trick is that, and this is where the trouble starts,  each arp can only sound on half of the keys in an absolutely genius/nutso pattern.  Timing is the other half of the trick.  Arp 2 must fire in the offbeat of arp 1.  And the 2 arps must remain synced.  

 

 

Here's the key assignments of arp 1 and 2 as I understand them,

 

post-1490-0-88384000-1395932240.jpg  

 

 

I initially used 4 arps and 4 zones to get as much of this alternating pattern as I could.  Drawbacks to it was not enough key range and couldn't keep the arps synced.  So,  I reworked the arpeggio pattern into a hybrid system of half marimba repeat and half actual pattern from the song using only 2 zones and arps.  I was able to keep the 2 arps synced and as a bonus it's easier to play that way.   It still needs more work to complete the song but it does work for some of the intro.  

post-1490-0-88384000-1395932240_thumb.jp

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Well I've learned more about the gubbins of my XW-p1 trying to reproduce "won't get fooled again" than I ever did trying to read the manual.

I can now produce new performances,Hexlayers,Solo Synths but for the hell of trying I cannot get that Who sound.

I am going quietly insane here as I have already drove the wife to despair and have been ordered to wear me headphones...that's her off me Christmas card list !

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Well I've given up !

I guess the XW-P1 just isn't the beast to recreate this sound, it seems an unduly complicated procedure to recreate something that should be simple on a synth, I was also disappointed with the DSP effects ?

However all is not lost ! Playing my PX-350 rotary organ through a tremolo pedal gives a pretty darn good representation.

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Bigmark, I've just posted another attempt at this in the P1 download area. Do you think it will do the job?

Cheers Brett,

I will download it and see, but I would really like to try and create it myself but like I said in my post it's seems an unduly complicated procedure on this synth ?

On a Juno Gi it can literally be created by turning a sweep button, In all probability I must doing something wrong on the XW-P1.

If someone could post a walk through for a dummy it may point to what I'm actually doing wrong?

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Awwwwww... Don't give up. Here's a couple of credible attempts. First one's on a Yamaha Motif XS

And in this one there's a technical explanation to boot. :)

Thanks Gary, I've looked at them but Wouldn't it be good if there where videos on youtube of XW owners re creating classic synth sounds from the hits ?

That would also be a massive selling point for this machine !

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Well I too have uploaded my won't get fooled again effort in the downloads section, not sure on the protocol of uploading patches to this forum but had to zip the file because apparently I don't have permission for the Z?? File attachment ?

Anyway I ended up saving it has a XW-P1 performance.

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I can't listen to your version because I have a G1 and I've noticed from looking at your performance in the P1 editor that you are using a user drawbar tone. I also see that you're using the the 8 Beat arpeggio preset to give the pulsing sound. This sounds exactly the same as the two step arpeggio I created, so well spotted. This makes my arpeggio redundant. I didn't think of auditioning the presets.

 

I've also realised that another way to create the filter sweep is via the Wah DSP. The Wah 1 preset is pretty close, but just a bit too fast. Slowing the LFO rate of the Wah DSP down to about 16 is better.

 

So here's a suggestion for creating "Won't Get Fooled Again" using standard presets: full drawbar PCM tone + Wah 1 DSP + 8 Beat arepeggio. Creating a user DSP with the Wah LFO rate reduced to about 16 is pretty well spot on.

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Cheers Brett.

I had the same trouble playing your G1 patch on the P1 ?

Yep, I auditioned the presets and actually used a drawbar organ with wah , then took the wah rate back and increased the 8 beat arpeggio ( arp P 4-4) to 138 bpm if I remember correctly.

I watch a guy playing won't get fooled on you tube on a Farisa organ using a Behringer Ultra Tremelo pedal.

I borrowed a Danelectro Trem pedal off of one of the guys in my band and although it was pretty good It gave me the idea for my patch.

I have to say though the built in DSP Trem is pants !

We gigged " won't get fooled" last night and my patch actually sounded very good, the lads in the band loved it !

My next quest is the synth sound on Muses " Uprising" now there is a challenge !

Anyway great stuff from you many thanks for your time in trying to recreate the patch.

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