Failure to use PX-5s as a sound module

[Normski]

I love my Px-5s, it’s an incredible stage instrument, but it’s bloody useless to use to record midi into a sequencer and play back stage setups.

I have decades of midi and sequencing experience. But getting my head around a simple record live track of a 4 zone split keyboard and then have it replay, appears to be impossible.

 

Is there a way to play stage setups from an external source?

 

I have even reconfigured a copy of one of my stage setups and set all zones to same midi channel etc.

Kept the channel as 1 or 2 as i believed setups only work on 1st 4 channels.

 

i know this is a stage instrument but didnt imagine this would be problem.

 

Has anyone succesfully managed a work around for this.

 

Norm

[Display Name]

Have you consulted the MIDI Implementation manual? 
http://support.casio.com/pdf/008/nil%20(PX5_MIDI_E_ver110_1305).pdf

There are a few sections in there that seem to cover what you want to do... pretty sure it's a matter of getting your sequencer to fire off the correct CC messages at the beginning of the track. I only use the PX-5S as a performance instrument.. my sequencing days are far behind me so I haven't played with this too much, Sorry.

[User 29303]

i also tried several times to play along with my PX5S and Logic and some Soft Instruments but i stopped using it ,,,

because it is tricky to set it up the 4 zones the rest of the mixer ....

[goergtn]

Hey, Jimski -

I use the PX as a sound module with Logic all the time. Mostly as a sketch-pad type of thing, using multiple channels and individual sounds. Also use it to play a SS as is. You have to be careful what patch changes you send, and with what MSB. IIRC, an MSB = 112 will address the SS's. Usually, though, a SS will get recorded in audio.

So, what type of StageSetting are you using - one big stack of sounds, or four discreet parts?

[Choppin]

@Normski

Just to add to what goergtn wrote:  The px-5s stage settings are made up of groups of 4 midi channels that can be transmitted all at once when the keyboard is played.  Each output channel can be chosen and assigned to a zone in a stage setting.  Depending on how the zones are layered, this can mean that up to 4 midi ON - OFF messages can be transmitted on a single key press.  Often, a DAW or a midi device is set to receive all midi on 1 channel.  In this case, when you press a key on the Px-5s you may get up to 4 simultaneous identical notes on that one channel.  in a DAW, it might be all occur on 1 track or staff (a doubling up of the same note or chord), on am idi device, it may all pile into one track on a sequencer or something.

 

The solution is to be aware and very careful with how you set up your Stage settings, and the midi on all devices/computer software, etc.  If while playing the keyboard of the Px-5s you know it's possible to send up to 4 midi channels out, and you only want to send one, then you have to turn the external out off for all of those zones that you do not want to transmit on.  Either that, or make sure your receiving device ignores all of the channels except the one you want from the Px-5s.

 

Now, on the receiving end of the PX-5s, it is designed to playback midi information on whatever channel it receives that information.  There are 16 parts or tracks that can receive and playback midi information.  Each part can only play back a single tone.  A stage setting may be made up of 4 separate tones (one on each zone), so there fore, it is not directly possible to playback a stage setting with all of it's layers from an external midi source unless 2 things happen:

 

1. you send the correct bank switch and program change for the particualr stage setting

2. you send the midi data on the correct channels that the stage setting is set to receive.  Basically, a stage setting will always receive channel 1 on zone 1, channel 2 on zone 2, channel 3 on zone 3, and channel 4 on zone 4 from an external source.

 

goergtn hinted at number one.  I would add a little to this in order to change the bank and program. To change the stage setting from an external source, you have to send the PX-5s the bank MSB and LSB as well as a program change number representing the Stage setting.

 

The MSB is 112 (decimal) and the LSB is 00 (decimal).  These should be followed by the stage setting number you want to switch to.  For example, lets say you want to your external device to switch the stage settings to 7-7, you would send MSB=112, LSB=00, PC = 77. 

 

In regards to No. 2:  Once you've sent the stage setting change command from the external midi source, in order to play back the 4 layers on the stage setting, you will have to transmit that data on channels 1,2,3,4.  If you have a separate program change command on any of those channels after the stage setting change has been sent, the layer for that zone, will change to whatever tone program change you send.

 

For example, let's say your external midi source calls the change stage setting to 7-7.  If you play on channel 1 from your source, you will get the polysynth hex layer.  If you play on channels 2,3,4 they are all set to Aie e piano 1, that's the sound you will hear on those channels from the px-5s.  However, you can send another program change to any of those channels specifically to set a different tone on any of those channels.

 

It all comes down to knowing and planning what you want to happen.  If you are controlling the Px-5s from an external source, follow this basic procedure:

 

1. If you just send midi data on channels 1,2,3,4 you will either play what ever tone is set for channel 1,2,3,4 on the px-5s or the corresponding channel will change to the tone (patch) that you send.  the default tones are on Bank 0 (GM).  If you want to play tones from a different bank, check out the appendixes of the Tutorial manual.

 

2. If you want to change a stage setting on the px-5s from an external source, send MSB 112, LSB 00, PC [stage setting]

 

3. If you want to play all 4 layers on the stage setting, send data on channels 1,2,3 and 4.  Do not send a program change after the stage setting change on any of these channels if you want to use the stage setting's tones.  If you do want to change the tone, then send a program change including the bank and tone you want to play AFTER you've sent the stage setting selection.

 

With all this said, you have to be aware that there are 2 different scenarios: transmitting, and receiving.  They are not the same so you can't switch from 1 to the other without adjustments. For sending fom the Px-5s,  create a stage setting that only outputs on 1 zone on 1 channel.  You do not want to send 2 or more zones on the same channel.  That will just layer multiple instances of the same midi data on what ever device is receiving the px play data.  That would be like 2 or more instruments playing in unison at the same pitch.

 

When playing back midi data from an external source, note everything I wrote previously.  Receiving and transmitting are 2 different animals on the Px-5s.

 

[Edit] One extra note: When receiving data on the Px-5s channels 1-4 are always zones 1-4; but remeber, you have 12 other channels you can receive data on at the same time.  Each of these can be it's own tone.  The closest you can get to controlling a stage setting is by receiving on channels 1-4.

 

When Sending data from the px-5s, zones 1-4 can be set to ANY channel.  You could set zone 1, for example, to channel 10.  Usually a midi device that receives data on channel 10 will play drums.  So, there is a lot of flexibility when sending midi data.

[Normski]

Thanks for all of your input. And especially to Choppin for his in depth description of how the stage setups can be accessed from an external device.

I did look for this type of info before posting, but it’s very thin on the ground.

But now I have this info and the midi implimentation, im pretty sure I can get to use my stage settings to record and replay from a sequencer.

But what a palaver. My creative juices will have to wait.

First I will have to master this send/receive protocol.

Thanks all again.

 

Norm

 

 

goergtn my stage setups are all different. I set up what I need for a particular song or songs.

Sometimes one instrument, sometimes a two way split. Sometimes a split with two internal sounds and one external.

I use a V-Machine with VB3 for my organ sounds.

I also have setups that have Wurlitizer EP on most of the keyboard and 3 Synths layered on the top two octaves.

Very handy gig tool, but not so intuitive when recording to/from midi.

[Jokeyman123]

Choppin-Info about MSB and LSB-that might be why I can't get the PX350 to respond to CC I've been trying to send-DSP settings primarily. I think the PX350 is similar to the PX5s in some ways, minus the full programability of course.  I'll study the midi implementation chart for the PX350 again, see if I can figure out MSB LSB for DSP CC messages. I don't think its clearly described but I'll check again. This would be the key to unlocking alot of "hidden" changes I've been trying to access without much success so far such as Leslie slow/fast, depth of chorus and reverb, eq settings all of which exist in the PX350 just like the PX5s, but with no external controls. I'll bet bank changes use same sysex messages as the PX5s. The PX350 defaults to bank 1 GM sounds regardless of my bank change numbers but there are many sounds that need bank change messages to get to with a sequencer or other external controller. Thanks for this info.

[Choppin]

Normski,

 

No problem.  I know it's a lot to read through, but I hope it makes sense.  Not to hit you over the head with a hammer, but here's the condensed version:

 

Sending From the PX to record to a sequencer one track at a time:

 

1. Create a stage setting that only transmits on 1 zone and 1 channel

     a. Edit > Stage Settings > Zone Edit > Midi Edit > Midi Out [Off] --- USB Out [Off] for 3 of the 4 zones

 

 

Receiving Data to the Px-5s from an external source:

Don't care about stage settings:

1. From external device, send bank and tone information as a program change for any or all of the 16 channels

     a. Reference Tone and midi information from Tutorial manual page E-40 and above

 

You DO care about playing back stage settings:

1. Send a stage setting bank select and program change to the PX-5s

     a. MSB=112, LSB=00, PC=stage seting number

     b. Channels 1-4 will play back zones 1-4 on the current stage setting

2. Perhaps you want to use the Stage setting but also want to change the tone's on the layers (zones)

    a. After sending the Stage Setting bank and program change, send another program change on channels 1 through 4 for which ever zone you want to change the tone of.  For example, let say we want to change to Stage setting 6-0, Piano and Bass.  We like how the sounds: reverb, delay, eq, etc are setup, we just want to change the piano sound to a Warm Pad:

From the external source send MSB=112, LSB=00, PC=60

Now change layer 1 by sending a program change on channel for the bank and tone of Warm Pad (receiving only 48,89 / transmitting and receiving 69,22)

MSB=69, LSB=00, PC=22

 

Jokeyman 123,

I haven't looked at the DSP data, but I imagine it is similarly managed.  If you have Windows, try using Midi Ox.  You can spin dials and move levers and look at the display to see what is transmitted.  If I have some time, I might poke around a little and see if I can find anything.

[Normski]

Just an update.

 

I have now successfully used my stage settings to record midi to/from a sequencer and then record the audio.

I found a simple way to do it was just to make sure the setting was only sending on one midi channel. (ta Choppin) And record midi. Then if the stage setting used more than one zone, I copied the data to multiple tracks within the sequencer and matched the midi channels. I didn’t need to play with LSB/MSB etc As I manually set the Px to the stage setting I wanted. It’s a fairly easy work around.

The important part is, I now know the stage settings can send on 4 midi channels simultaneously, this can get a bit too much for many sequencers to handle when recording.

Norm

[Lucas Geezer]

Folks, I apologize for asking what might seem a basic question - but I am trying to set up a very basic situation where I transmit only on MIDI channel 1, and receive on all MIDI channels except channel 1. Can anyone provide instructions to do that?  Is it easier to do using the data editor software, or from the small screen on the keyboard.  (My keyboard is a PX-5S)

[Choppin]

The transmit part is sorta taken care of.  Unless you use the song sequencer and set it to transmit out, you are safe.  However, you would have to turn off 3 of the 4 zones midi out on a stage setting.  I mostly use the keyboard for edits, but it's probably faster through the editor.  On the keyboard:

 

Edit > Stage Setting > Zone Edit > Midi Edit > Mid out [off]  USB Out [off] .  Use the + and - keys to the left of the display window to choose different zones.

 

To not receive on channel 1 and to effectively turn off the sound generator:

 

Sys Setting > Sound Generator > Mixer Part1-16 > Part Enable [Off] Use the + and - keys to the left of the display to select the part.

[keezone]

 In what format is data being sent to the PX-5S. (I'm assuming just in whatever program or DAW software is being used).Has anyone done any SysEx work and, if so, would you be willing to pass on an example. I am using Sonar X3 and would like to utilize SysEx in my files.

Thanks in Advance.

Syd

[Choppin]

It's device/software specific. For example, the Px-5s editor does all of it's communicating via Sysex.  Transmission to other midi devices FROM the Px-5s is through CCs (midi control codes, control change) and/or RPNs and NRPNs and most other midi devices do the same.  Unless the DAW has a specific template built to communicate to a specific synthesizer, it's not likely to use Manufacturer System Exclusive messages but it may use Universal System Exclusive messages (master volume, midi time code, manufacturer ID, etc.).  Controlling tone parameters, DSP effects, stage settings, hex settings, among other things, would all be specific to the Px-5s and you'd have to read the implementation to make sure the DAW was communicating the correct codes.  The would mean setting up the DAW to do what you want

 

For example, a DAW might send out a "switch to Monophonic" message, however the Px-5s always ignores this message.  CCs are the most universal and easiest to understand for most midi devices.  It's likely that a DAWs base mode (out of the box) communicates via CCs.

 

The bulk dump Sysex for the PX-5s can only be initiated externally - there is no "dump mode" as some devices have.  That means you have to control the request, the send, and the receive from an external source.  However, there is the SAVE ALL function when you use the media button.  This may function as a sort of bulk Sysex dump, but you'd need the details of the file format to make it useful outside of the Px-5s.

 

Don't know if any of this helps.  The bottom line is you'd need to reference the Px-5s midi implementation to learn the Sysex commands.