Help integrating Korg Kronos and Casio PX-5S

[soundspossible]

I know there are some PX-5S/Kronos owners out there, so hopefully someone else has figured this out.  I've posted to the Korg forum as well.  

 

My live setup includes a Kronos 61 and Casio PX-5S. I've got bi-directional MIDI and I'm using both boards as tone generators. I've got all my Kronos combis setup to send program changes to the PX-5S. This works fine, and it is exactly what I desire. I can also control the Kronos from the PX-5S without issue. Again, exactly what I want. 

 

Here's where the problem starts. The Kronos always transmits note data from the global MIDI channel. I happen to have this set to 16. The result is that the PX-5S part set to channel 16 gets played by the Kronos. I don't want the Kronos to play the PX-5S. The PX-5S stage settings always have tones responding to 5-16 and the only way to disable them is to use the Mixer function. However, the mixer settings are NOT saved at power-down, so I have to remember to do this every time. 

 

I tried changing the Kronos global ch to 4, since I can save how the PX-5S responds to that channel for any one particular stage setting. Unfortunately, the PX-5S also transmits program changes from 1-4, so it throws off the Kronos if I need to change patches on the PX-5S. Turning off program change in the Kronos global settings fixes that, but then the Kronos also doesn't transmit program change, defeating the whole purpose of my setup. 

 

So, I realize I could use the Kronos as my sole tone generator and just use the PX-5S as a controller. I could also set the Mixer settings every time or just forget about sending program changes to the PX-5S (no MIDI out from the Kronos to the PX-5s). All of these would "solve" the problem. But I am not ready to give up. My goal is to be able to change stage settings on the PX-5S from the Kronos while preventing the PX-5S from producing any sound when the Kronos is played.  Any ideas?

 

Thanks for reading the long post!

 

 

[User 29303]

you can save the channels for each stage setting by itself ...stage setting edit. Stage..Zone Edit then Midi Edit ,there select Zone1. To 4 and set your midi channels midi out in and so on....well i am not shure for channels 5. To 16

[soundspossible]

you can save the channels for each stage setting by itself ...stage setting edit. Stage..Zone Edit then Midi Edit ,there select Zone1. To 4 and set your midi channels midi out in and so on....well i am not shure for channels 5. To 16

 

Thanks Mau.  Yes, I know I can do this.  The problem is if I set the Kronos global channel to 4 so that it transmits on 4, it also receives on 4.  And the PX-5S will send a program change on channel 4 anytime I happen upon a stage setting that uses that channel -- changing the program on the Kronos.  To effectively stop that I'd need to edit every stage setting.  At that point, it is just too tedious.  I can stick with editing the Mixer settings on power up or just stop sending MIDI to the PX-5S altogether.  So, I think channel 5-16 is where something needs to happen.  There may be some Karma trick I can play on the Kronos, but that's an engine with which I am not yet familiar.

[Choppin]

Hello,

 

I've attached a midi file that if you play it, it will turn off the sound generator in the mixer for track 16.

 

You could put the midi file on a USB disk, have it plugged into the Px-5s and play it.  Basically, the midi file sends control codes to the px-5s to turn off the sound generator for that channel in the mixer.  This is just an example of what codes to send in a midi format.  If you have a midi file editor, you can look at the events and see exactly what I did and design your own file to turn on or off several channels in the sound generator of the px-5s at once.

 

If you can send control codes directly from the Kronos, then you can turn off and on the sound generator for the channels by sending the following codes on the channel to affect.  I'll list the Hex and decimal equivalents first.

 

hex 63=99

hex 62=98

hex 06=06

hex 22=34

hex 26=38

hex 7f=127

 

These are the codes to send Control Code (CC) . All codes are in decimal.

Turn off

CC 99 value 34

CC 98 value 00

CC 06 value 00

CC 38 value 00

 

Turn on

CC 99 value 34

CC 98 value 00

CC 06 value 127

CC 38 value 00

turn_off_c16_mixer.mid

[soundspossible]

Thanks Choppin! I will give this a try later and let you know how it works out.

[Choppin]

Also, check out this link

 

http://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/topic/4954-stage-settings-changes-via-midi/?view=findpost&p=9981&hl=kronos

[XW-Addict]

I'm curious but why would you connect the PX5S to a Kronos which is a workstation beast what does the PX5 have the Kronos has not.

[soundspossible]

I'm curious but why would you connect the PX5S to a Kronos which is a workstation beast what does the PX5 have the Kronos has not.

 

It isn't so much that the PX-5S does things that the Kronos can't.  I could very well use the Kronos as my only sound source.  In fact, in the studio, I tend to use the PX-5S solely as a controller.  But when I was designing some sounds for live use, I found that the MONO acoustic piano from the PX-5S sounded better than what I could get from the Kronos when played through my amp (a Motion Sound KT-80) competing in a loud blues/rock band.  Now, if I played live in stereo or had a good powered PA speaker instead of the KT-80 or had time to program a good mono piano on the Kronos or played in a different band, maybe I'd configure it differently.  

 

So basically what I'm doing is sending program changes to the PX-5S to switch between acoustic piano and pure controller when I need it for playing rhodes/wurli sounds which come from the Kronos.  And then I play organ and synth tones from the Kronos 61 keyboard because it feels more natural.

 

The other benefit I get has to do with my amp and volume control.  Since I am using the Kronos mainly for e.pianos and organs, I dirty up the sound a bit by running the L-main out (mono) through the amp's tube channel, while the PX-5S goes through the clean channel.  Now, I could use the Kronos's individual outs to do the same thing, but anything run through the Kronos's individual outs bypass the main volume knob.  This makes it really difficult to keep the organs, e.pianos, and a.pianos balanced.  Whereas, I kind of have a feel for how to adjust the PX-5S and Kronos together to keep things under control.      

 

I want to emphasize that this is what works for me.  The results have been great so far.  It is awesome that we have instruments that are so flexible, even if it takes some time to tame them.   

[soundspossible]

Following up on the original topic... I tried Choppin's midi file and it did the trick.  I modified the midi file to disable mixer parts 5-16, and I can play it either from a thumb drive on the PX-5S or from a Kronos sequence.  I'm still looking for a way to do this through the Kronos combi so I don't have to load anything extra, but this is one step closer.  Thanks again Choppin.

 

 

px-5s mixer 5-16 off.MID

[Choppin]

Glad that worked!

 

In regards to control directly from the Kronos, can you chain messages together?  I thought I read that Krons can store Sysex messages for quick recall or something.  I also read that there is control surface and an EXT button that allows the setup for the control of external instruments.  You can set the dials and levers on the Kronos however you want to control external midi.  Perhaps there's a way to set up this control surface specifically.  I also remeber reading that you can have dedicated setups - up 128, I think?  Any of this ring a bell?

[soundspossible]

Glad that worked!

 

In regards to control directly from the Kronos, can you chain messages together?  I thought I read that Krons can store Sysex messages for quick recall or something.  I also read that there is control surface and an EXT button that allows the setup for the control of external instruments.  You can set the dials and levers on the Kronos however you want to control external midi.  Perhaps there's a way to set up this control surface specifically.  I also remeber reading that you can have dedicated setups - up 128, I think?  Any of this ring a bell?

 

Thanks Choppin for the suggestions.  The only way I know to store/recall sysex changes in the Kronos is with a song in the sequencer, which I've done for this purpose.  The caveat is that it must be loaded from disk when the Kronos is booted, but it works perfectly.  There may be another way that I haven't come across.  I've thought about using the control surface.  You can assign different CCs for external MIDI control as you mentioned.  Although I haven't run any tests, I've found that at least some CCs aren't sent on the global channel, which is really the one causing the problems.  One day I'll record it or read the MIDI spec more thoroughly to understand what is happening.  At the moment, I am happy with the SMF workaround, so I've moved on to actually playing and learning some songs!

[DanL]

Greetings.  I'm wondering if anyone on this thread can help me with a similar problem.  I'm trying to use my Akai MPK61 to drive whatever instruments are set in my Casio PX-5S on mixer channels 5 through 16.  I'm using the CASIO Data Editor to set the mixer channel voices. This all works fine except of course when you power off the PX-5S and then it forgets the mixer settings.  It would be OK to have a MIDI file as discussed above to reestablish the mixer settings.  I've successfully used turn_off_c16_mixer.mid to turn C16 off, and modified it so that I can turn a channel on or off and change the pitch.  But I can't for the life of me figure out the right series of midi commands to select the right bank and program to get a different preset voice.

 

This is likely because I'm new to MIDI.  Essentially I'm starting with something that works (turn_off_c16_mixer.mid) and using a trial-and-error approach, adding/changing a small number of controls to see what works.

 

Any insight would be great!  Thanks.

[Choppin]

Hello and welcome!

 

If you want to do the program changes 1 at time, you can send them from Akai directly in the Program Change mode.  In order to change the tones (we'll talk specifically about channels 5-16 on the px) you have to send the bank and the program change for the specific channel.  From the Akai directly you have to choose Prog+Bank for the type, and channel 5-16 for whatever channel you want to change the tone on.  If the Akai is attached from the Midi out to the Px-5s midi in, that should do the trick.

 

Now if you want to change multiple channels at once using a file as your post seems to suggest, you have to do a similar operation for all those channels and tones you want to change.  You can find out which bank and tone combination is what in the Reference section of the Px-5s User Guide (Tutorial).

 

For your Midi file, you want to set CC 00 (bank select) with the bank number identified in the reference (eg. piano sounds are bank 64, electric piano bank 65, synth sounds bank 69, etc.) and you want to set the program change to the number of the tone.

 

The attached midi file changes channel 5 to choir.  It will use bank 67 and program change 52

 

midi channel 5 choir.mid

[DanL]

Choppin, thank you so much for the fast and useful reply.  Both approaches work like a charm.  I guess my only remaining challenge (which may not be possible) is this: is there any way to drive more than one of the mixer channels at the same time using the MPK keyboard?   Ideally I'm hoping to be able to mix multiple voices using the sliders to adjust individual volumes.

 

Again, thanks for the help!

[Choppin]

DanL,

 

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the MPK, I'm not familiar with it at all but gleaned some of the info from the reference guide that might be useful.  It seems you should press the Edit button and then move a knob or slider that you want to edit.  Engaging the control at this stage should activate it for edits.

 

Next use the VALUE dial to select the control change you want this fader or knob to control (CTRL CHANGE) and press Enter.  That will take you to the control change select screen.  The MIDI channels are assigned in 2 groups - A and B (A1-A16 and B1-B16).  Use the < > keys to select the parameter that you want to change.  If you want to change the midi channel that is controlled by this slider, then change the little A to A5 or whatever channel in whatever group you want to use.  Use the < > to go through the different fields.  If you wanted to control the volume on a specific channel, then after the CC , set the parameter to 7 .  Next to that parameter, set the low and high values for the range of the fader or knob.

 

You should be able to do this for all of the sliders and knobs.  This way you can control the volumes of each of the external channels of the px-5s.  At least, that is how it logically works in my mind - I've never tried the MPK keyboard.

[DanL]

Hi Choppin,

 

Thanks you.  I'm not super familiar with the MPK, but I've worked through the manual a few times and figured out much of the setup.  Most of the setup makes sense once you get your head wrapped around the process.  But I haven't found any way to assign the keyboard (or any control for that matter) to more than one channel.  And each mixer channel in the PX5-5S is essentially it's own channel (1A, 2A, 3A, ... 16A).  My hope is to either have the MPK send a keyboard signal on multiple channels, or have the Casio take an incoming MIDI message on a single channel and resend it or multiplex it in some way to a bunch of channels. 

 

There is one other Casio question you might know the answer to.  Some of the things one can control have standard MIDI assignments, for example Volume=07 and Reverb=91.   But what codes would an external MIDI source (like the MPK) need to send for non-standard things like Layer 1 Vol?  I'm thinking this requires understanding Part IV in the Midi Implementation Manual and then finding the actual parameters in Part V (like 25.1).  This is one of those situations where an example might be worth 1000 words. 

 

Best regards! Dan

[Choppin]

 

But I haven't found any way to assign the keyboard (or any control for that matter) to more than one channel.

So changing the A when you are editing the control on the Akai slider or knob doesn't allow you to independently select the midi channel?

 

The hex layer messages are a little more complicated.  Also note, that hex layers can only be played on channels 1 and 2.  To control the volume for a hex layer, you have to use NRPNs.

 

The message is initiated by sending (Hex values) Bchannel 63 5<layer> B<channel> 62 <control to change> where channel can be 0 or 1 (0=midi channel 1 1=midi channel 2) and layer can be 0 through 5.   So to start the conversation with a hex layer on zone 1 channel 1 on layer 3 and say we are going to change the volume on that layer, the midi code is:

 

B0 63 52

B0 62 04 (04 is the hex layer amp volume) parameter

 

Following that we have to tell it the data entry for the volume change:

B0 06 <value 0-127> (06 says we are about to add a value to the identified parameter)

B0 26 00 (some NRPNs may have an LSB value as well.  For this, the px-5s does not but still needs receipt of the code)

 

When Px-5s sends an NRPN it follows with a NULL RPN.  I'm not sure if it needs to receive it also but here it is for reference anyway:

B0 65 7F

B0 64 7F

 

Remember, the 0 after the B indicates which channel to transmit on (0=midi channel 1).  So the whole midi string to set the volume of a hex layer layer 3 on channel 1 to 64 would look like (assuming the NULL RPN has to be included):

 

B0 63 52

B0 62 04

B0 06 40

B0 26 00

B0 65 7F

B0 64 7F

[DanL]

Thanks Choppin.   I'm happy to report success on creating a mixer setup in the PX-5S that I can then drive from the MPK.  File is attached for others who might want to use it.  Essentially this sets up mixer channels 5 through 16 with 12 different voices (sax, flute, vibes, synth, ...).  The MPK is has 12 corresponding presets to drive these (plus 4 additional presets to access channels 1 through 4).  This will allow me stage use of the MPK and PX-5S together without requiring a separate sound generator for the MPK.

 

As for my questions in the last post, it doesn't look possible to do what I want.  My goal was to see if I could pull off a drawbar organ using the MPK sliders.  To do this either I'd need to drive more than one mixer channel at a time via the MPK (i.e. press a key and play mixer channels 5A, 6A, 7A, 8A, ... at once) and control the relative volumes with the sliders.  Alternatively I could set up the organ using hex layers and control those using the MPK sliders.  But both approaches require more than I think the MPK can handle (at least given what I know so far!).

 

Thanks again for the assistance!  Dan 

SetUp12Channels.mid