An interesting comparison?

[pax-eterna]

I just got the Ravenscroft 275 VST piano, and while it is really quite good, and I do like it, I was not as "overwhelmed" as I expected to be.

So I did a small comparison test between it and the main piano sound on the Casio PX-5S and the difference is not as big as I would have thought (STRICTLY jmo!). 

Is the R worth the $200 over the Casio? You be the judge 

I used the Purgatory Creek MIDI file as the reference data source, and both are recorded using Sonar with NO editing at all...and both were then exported as a standard broadcast WAV at 44k 16 bit. They are simply 1 and 2 as I just thought it would be interesting to see what folks thought...

 

The Soundcloud link is: https://soundcloud.com/denm_1

[User 29303]

Killer ,,,,ehmmmm ok z you win great thank you

[leeskeys]

I've been using Applied Acoustics Lounge Lizard 2 EP VST with my Px3. I'm hoping that I'll like the EPs on the PX5 (getting mine on Tuesday) enough that I can rely on them as my primary go-to. On board sounds are easier to manage and switch between during gigs. Once you're part of the band mix, subtle differences between sources don't really stand out.

[Display Name]

I think you will be very happy with the EP sounds on the PX-5S - there are some top notch EP presets and PLENTY of downloads available here. 

[Choppin]

In terms of the timbre of the tones, I like the lower end (not talking about the pitch) of 1.  It sounds a bit rounder to me, however, the mid and treble sound compressed and very digital.  2 all around sounds more natural or rather, less digital, to my ears.  2 seems to have more resonance and vibration as opposed to what seems more like an extended sustained sample of number 1.

[Null]

The bottom one sounded brighter.  The top one sounded more resonant.  I  can't really say I disliked either of them.  It really depends on what your venue calls for.

 

Gary

[pax-eterna]

Cool, thanks for the replies...I will reveal later which one is which...although it is not THAT difficult to tell with careful listening. I guess the point is that the piano in the Casio can really mix it with some of the big guns!

 

Re the EP's on the PX - very good and some of the downloads are pretty good too, not all, as some are rather similar to the stock EP's...but you will not be disappointed. I too use/d EP4, but I am mroe than happy to use just the EP's on the PX (fwiw!)

 

I only bought Ravenscroft to replace my ageing True Pianos VST.

[PianoManChuck]

How was this recorded?

[Brad Saucier]

I will reveal later which one is which...although it is not THAT difficult to tell with careful listening. 

 

Oh.  I didn't realize we we're supposed to pick the Casio.  Yea, it's obvious to me which one is Casio even if it wasn't labeled Casio PX-5s - Ravencroft.   LOL  

For me, I like Casio's piano sound better than most every piano I have heard.  They captured a dryer up front sound than most others accomplish.  Those others are fine for solo stuff but for cutting through a mix the drier more "up front" sound is what I like.  

 

BTW.  The Casio has the left and right crossed.  The bass notes are in my right ear.     Or are my headphones on backwards?  

[pax-eterna]

Hi Brad, no nothing crossed at all - I had noticed that too with my cans. If they are on the "wrong way" the sound is disproportionate , but balances out again when the cans are swapped. Weird!

 

Sorry, it wasn't the point for listeners to HAVE to say which is which..just a bit of fun. For the record #1 is the Ravenscroft #2 is the Casio.

 

@PIanoManChuck recorded via a Presonus FireStudfio Mobile 44.1 / 16bit, no effects, no EQ into Sonar, and then a broadcast wav created from that.

[theodorn]

I had guessed that the first one was Ravenscroft, assuming the name of the files was not a hint.   Still at some point in time, I thought the second one was the R. Felt as though it had more timbre in the beginning, like a real piano has. I hardly noticed any difference, and I'm not even sure that the Ravenscroft is better, than the PX-5S, and if so, then only by a margin.

 

I've been listening to software pianos day and night the last weeks, wondering if I should get me one, and by now, I feel maybe there's no need. For the record, did you record with the grand piano concert voice, the first piano of the PX-5S's list of piano voices, the one that is by default in stage setting 0-0? I ask, because we have so many possibilities to play with the existing piano voices and make new ones, taylored to our preferences.

[pax-eterna]

Yes theodrn, it was the 0-0 Grand on the PX (as it came from the factory) and the standard Ravenscroft  (it has four variations on the default, mostly all to do with mic'ing - close,player, room, side) .

 

As I wrote, I was quite amazed at how NOT "blown away" I was by the Ravenscroft - despite all the hype from both them and other forums    and tbh, it was not that much better than my old True Pianos VST.

 

The Casio (despite my person misgivings) stacked up really well, and as you say not a lot of difference. Especially through a F.O.H. PA system....

[PianoManChuck]

The PX5S really does give the most bang for the buck!!  Regardless, I put together my own test of the Ravenscroft vs the PX5s in this video:

 

  

[pax-eterna]

Why?

[PianoManChuck]

If you paid attention at the beginning of the video... I stated that I did the same for the Korg Kronos vs Ravenscroft, Nord Stage 2 vs Ravenscroft, and now Privia PX5s vs Ravenscroft.... so I ask you... why not?  It was done a while ago, just got around to editing and posting it.  Besides all of my demos, comparisons, tutorials, etc, are all video (not just audio).  Its the best way for any viewers to get the complete picture (no pun intended ).

[theodorn]

Thank you for your comparison video, PianoManChuck. I enjoy your videos very much, keep them coming!

[PianoManChuck]

Thanks theodorn

[pax-eterna]

If you paid attention at the beginning of the video... I stated that I did the same for the Korg Kronos vs Ravenscroft, Nord Stage 2 vs Ravenscroft, and now Privia PX5s vs Ravenscroft.... so I ask you... why not?  It was done a while ago, just got around to editing and posting it.  Besides all of my demos, comparisons, tutorials, etc, are all video (not just audio).  Its the best way for any viewers to get the complete picture (no pun intended ).

 

Didn't watch it. No need as I already have my comparison

[leeskeys]

One thing I've discovered is that subtle differences between VST's and onboard sounds often are washed away in live performances. It's one thing to sit and listen in my living room, wearing headphones, to VST versus onboard; it's often an entirely different thing in a live performance where the keyboard is only one of several instruments playing simultaneously- at least that's what I've found in the context of my classic rock band.

 

By the way, thanks for your intro vides on the Px5, PianoManChuck. They've really helped me get to know my new Px5.

[PianoManChuck]

One thing I've discovered is that subtle differences between VST's and onboard sounds often are washed away in live performances. It's one thing to sit and listen in my living room, wearing headphones, to VST versus onboard; it's often an entirely different thing in a live performance where the keyboard is only one of several instruments playing simultaneously- at least that's what I've found in the context of my classic rock band.

 

By the way, thanks for your intro vides on the Px5, PianoManChuck. They've really helped me get to know my new Px5.

Subtle differences are always the case in live performances.  I'm a solo pianist who does live performances (no band), and in a live performance, people are talking, eating, drinking, moving around, socializing... etc.  I'm there to provide background music or ambience.  Sometimes people get up and start singing along!  But the bottom line is, unless the live performance takes place at a concert hall where the performer IS the reason people come (ie: Lang Lang for instance), then subtle differences don't matter.

I use the PX-5S (and the PX-350) for all of my performances where no piano is provided.  All of my other equipment is used in my studio where compositions are done with music libraries, film and television quality in mind.

 

Thanks for the "thanks" on my PX-5S intro videos

[pax-eterna]

This is exactly the problem when doing comparisons. They need to be exactly the same note and velocity data, and no matter how GOOD one is this is nearly impossible to achieve by human means. Ergo the Purgatory Creek (or any other midi data source really) testing midi file means each keyboard is getting EXACTLY the same data.

 

Someone playing notes for a comparo is not the same, as a humans touch, feel, physicality, and even moods can be different from day to day, sheesh, even from hour to hour, and these things make a BIG difference to how a VST (and acoustic) instrument sounds.

 

So I place no real faith in humans playing demos - WAY too variable to be an accurate representation. Further, if one IS going to demo patches, then at least try and (as best as possible) recreate the playing style for the instrument (IE play basses and guitars LIKE basses and guitars, play brass patches like they should be - including in the correct registers. Not just playing any notes anywhere on the keyboard.

[Choppin]

Unless I'm wrong, for Pianoman chuck's comparison, the midi out from the px-5s was used to record the live performance on the PC so the information for both the Px and the ravenscoft were the same.   I don't believe he physically played one, then the other.  The performance data should be identical.

 

In all comparisons unless the output is the exact same source, there are going to be variances.  From a computer, if one uses their laptops sound card routed through some wonderful set of speakers, it's not going to be the same as routing the sound through a dedicated RME sound module through the same set of speakers.  So the output of the px-5s won't necessarily match the output from any other source.

 

So comparisons in that regard, on any level, can only give one a general idea of the differences - whether live or played using the same midi file.  A VST instrument can sound good or bad depending on the hardware DAC it is run through so it's a gamble depending on your equipment.  A digital piano, in theory always has the same hardware, so it should almost always sound the same.  The only viable comparison is to compare playable digital pianos (keyboards) because that will not only give you the sound that's created through software and architecture, but will also give you the sound of it's output.  A VST instrument can be manipulated or changed on too many levels and run through a gambit of different hardware - so as a comparison against a keyboard, it's not a good match.

[theodorn]

Choppin is right, PianoManChuck explicitly stated that he was driving both sound sources at the same time, not by playing first the PX-5S and then the Ravenscroft (again with the PX-5S of course.) Line Out for the PX-5S, and the Ravenscroft via the USB connection. Then he assumably edited the video, inserted the Ravenscroft version of each passage, immediately after the same passage recorded with the Casio, through the Line Out. He must have had a screen capturing software to record the interface of the Ravenscroft, which is the UVI workstation, if I'm not mistaken.

 

There are actually two ways to record the PX-5S, using any of it's internal voices. On the USB flash drive or through the Line Out. Recording through a headphone jack might be considered the third way. I don't know if it there is a difference between a Line Out recording and a USB drive audio recording. I know at least the PX-5S doesn't sound the same through a headphone jack and Line Out, there are more distortions through the headphone jack. If there are distortions when playing, there must also be distortions when recording.

[PianoManChuck]

The following snapshot from the video editor should explain everything (a picture is worth a thousand words)!

Theodorn is correct in that I was using screen capturing software to capture the Ravenscroft keyboard interface as I was playing.  And as stated in the video, my playing the px5s drove both the px5 piano and the Ravenscroft virtual instrument (via USB MIDI) at the same time.  Everything was recorded at the same time... but onto separate tracks.  In fact, at one portion of the video (3:30 I believe), both are displayed/played to show how they sound together, and to further prove this was no "trick".

 

[Ebonivor]

It doesn't really matter what anyone says, at the end of the day individual preferences will vary. Pax-eterna, your demonstration was very interesting and I understand your preference for using a source that is a constant, just as using a tone generator to test speaker responses is the norm.

 

However, if we were to only base purchases on synthetically produced results and there were no other factors to be considered, we would all end up using the same products - the ones with the best test results. But when we don't have physical access to a product, these kinds of tests are often all we have to go on. Fortunately, we also have enthusiastic people like PianoManChuck who obviously loves to share his unbiased hands-on experiences.

 

Like many others on the forum and the Facebook group, I was unable to actually see or try a PX-5S before buying. I spent countless hours researching it and a variety of other keyboards and PianoManChuck's videos were invaluable - in fact, he can take credit for me now being a proud owner. So, thank you PianoManChuck... and thank you Pax-eterna for posting this topic. I am now much wiser! :-)