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Hex Layers and init by wave


dc2k

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Hey guys,

just trying to figure out the hex layers and the init by wave function. Let me know if I have got this right:

 

Set 'init by wave' to on: This means when I scroll through the tones on a layer, any tone I select will be the raw sample with some default parameter values set by Casio which they thought would be suitable. If I then edit the parameters on a tone and then select a different tone, those edited values will not be carried to next tone....all except for any I configured using the hard controls (knobs and sliders).

 

For example, if slider 1 is set to cutoff and I set that to 0 using the slider, cutoff will be still be 0 for the next tone I scroll to, but if I set the cutoff to 0 using the display and scroll to another tone, the cutoff value will not carry and it will be set to whatever the default value casio decided for that tone.

 

Set 'init by wave' to off: This means any edits I make to the parameters of a tone on a layer will carry to any subsequent tone I select for that layer, no matter if I edit them via the hard controls (knobs and sliders) or display. In order to hear the raw samples, it would be best to edit a blank hex layer as any other hex layers would more than likely have various parameters on each of the layers altered.....unless, I'm wondering, if there is a quick way to remove these alterations and revert them to their raw sample state. Anyone know if there is a way?

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Actually, now I don't think the above info is even correct. I was experimenting with zone 2 on stage setting 3:3 when I did these tests. Init by wave was set to off and when I changed the tone on layer 1, the parameters seemed to carry to the next tone I selected for that layer........but I tried experimenting with stage setting 1:7 today and did the same thing for layer 5 because I was trying to figure out how the pad on the layer sounded like a bell (like I say, I'm new to synths) but when I chose a different tone for that layer, the parameters didn't seem to carry. Maybe some do and some don't.

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  • 4 months later...

I believe Init by wave is the initialization state when you select a tone.  As you said, certain tones may have default envelopes that CASIO "suggests".  So when you select a tone, it will have these default parameters for that tone.  Whenever you select a tone, it will be initialized.  My thought is that it will either be initialized by the suggested wave parameters or it will be initialized by a series of flat levels (so you can start from scratch) depending on whether init by wave is on or off.

 

Parameters won't be carried over.  Every time you select a new tone, it will be initialized.  The only way to hold your parameters in place for the Hex layer is to save your work (tone).  But if you select a new tone it will be re-initialized.  It's just like if you are switching between stage settings.  A new set of parameters is loaded for the new stage setting.

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Dc2k,

 

If I'm understanding you correctly, you had it correct in the beginning.  To clarify, when you say you're selecting a new "tone" for a layer....you mean you're selecting a new "wave" for that layer.   Correct?  Because in hex tone editing, the layers are waves (or raw samples).  Tones are the final programs themselves.

 

The "Initialize by wave" function is for hex tone edit mode.  When initialize by wave is off, it allows a layer's sample wave to be chosen without it affecting the filter and envelopes of that layer.  When initialize is on, the sample wave sets the filter and envelopes to Casio's preset values.  

 

An example:

 

With initialize on, select a piano wave like GrPiano3-R for layer 1 of a hex tone.  It will set the amp envelope for a long decay.   Now select a synth waves like sawtooth 1.  It will set the amp envelope for no decay.  Now turn off initialize by wave and switch back to a piano wave.  You will now be able to hear the piano sample loop continuously with no end because the amp envelope is still set for the synth wave where no decay time was the preset value.  

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yeah I did mean waves Brad, sorry.

 

It's a great feature to have as you can easily hear what other waves sound like with some same envelope if you want.

 

But do you notice that no matter whether init is set to off or on, if you use the hard controls to adjust some parameter, those changes stay when you select a new wave.

 

Makes sense to be like that in 'init off' mode but I think it would be better if in 'init on' mode, any changes you made with the hard controls are cancelled too when you choose a new wave.  

That was what was confusing me about  init on/off.

 

Minor thing really. I just have to remember not to use the hard controls when scanning through the waves in on mode to hear them properly.

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But do you notice that no matter whether init is set to off or on, if you use the hard controls to adjust some parameter, those changes stay when you select a new wave.

 

Can you detail an example?  I've never noticed it.   In fact, I've had occasions where I've lost loads of programming work on the envelopes and filters by accidentally changing waves while init by wave was on.

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Sure:

Pick a blank hex layer tone for zone 1 in say the default 0-0 stage setting.

So by default, you have a sine wave loaded for the 1st layer and all other layers are off.

Make sure init by wave is set to on.

Use slider 1 to set the cut-off to zero.

Scroll to the previous wave, the gun shot. You will notice you can't hear anything. Because cut-off was set to zero using the slider and this change carries.

Scroll back to sine wave too. You will notice it still sounds like cut-off is set to zero. It wasn't set back to the default casio envelope for the sine wave.

 

Does that make sense?

If you do those previous steps but instead of using the slider, you change the cut-off using the display menu, then "init by wave:on" works the way you expect and the sine wave is reset to the casio default envelope but not if you use the slider to change it.  

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Hello,

 

The sliders are for the stage setting, not the tone, per say.  When you are adjusting sliders you are adjusting the parameters relative to the stage setting.   That is why you are seeing a difference when using the menu controls.  Your edits for the tones specifically should be using the Editor or the on screen controls.  

 

Do you understand the difference?

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If you do those previous steps but instead of using the slider, you change the cut-off using the display menu, then "init by wave:on" works the way you expect and the sine wave is reset to the casio default envelope but not if you use the slider to change it.  

 

I see the problem.  In short.....Sliders can't be used to edit a tone when the goal is to save your work.  If you use the slider to adjust cutoff, you won't be able to save that adjustment as a stage setting or a tone. 

 

The slider targets for cutoff and other various things are different from the actual tone editing parameters.   I think of them as a set of performance controls that come after the actual tone edit mode and are not part of the synth section itself. They are intended for live manipulation of parameters during performance.  They create offset's of the values programmed in tone edit mode.   Sliders don't have absolute control over tone parameters.  You'll notice that, depending on the programmed filter cutoff value, the slider either will or will not be able to completely close the filter since it only acts as an offset.  If the programmed cutoff is 88, the slider will only be able to reduce the cutoff by 64 steps.  Hope that makes sense.  

 

For synth programming work......Knob 2 is what you want to use.  Select cutoff in the menu of tone edit mode and use knob 2 to adjust rather than use the offset control of a slider.  

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Sure, I understand the difference. The way you explained it is a good way of seeing it. It threw me off when I first started messing around with hex layers having learned what the init function did.

 

I'm still not 100% on which way the controls offset parameters.

One thing I wondered is why in the hex layers you can adjust say the cut-off from 1 - 127 but in non-hex layer tones the range is -64 to +64.

I'm guessing it is because the hex layer feature was developed independently from the rest and this is just a design quirk.

 

But my confusion is due to the offsetting.

If I set the cut-off for a hexlayer tone to 0 in the settings, What does slider 1 do (assuming its min and max settings are 0 and 127)?

If I push the slider to the top does it go up to 127 or does go up to 64. Do I consider a middle point for the slider as the original cut-off setting in the menu?

But what happens if the slider's min and max settings are say 48 and 96?

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One thing I wondered is why in the hex layers you can adjust say the cut-off from 1 - 127 but in non-hex layer tones the range is -64 to +64.

I'm guessing it is because the hex layer feature was developed independently from the rest and this is just a design quirk.

 

Yes.  The non hex tone (melody tone) are of a different architecture.  Thier user editable parameters also operate as offsets of the "hidden" factory pre-programmed value. That's why they are +64 to -64.  With melody tones, the user has no access to the absolute controls they way we do with hex tones.  

 

If I push the slider to the top does it go up to 127 or does go up to 64. Do I consider a middle point for the slider as the original cut-off setting in the menu?

 

In short...yes.  Correct.   

 

In this case of cutoff, the middle point of the slider range (0-127) is equivalent to the zero center of melody tones parameters (-64 <0> +64). Here you can boost the original value 64 steps or cut it by 64.  

 

Example:  Let's say cutoff is set to 127 in the hex tone.  Your slider starts in the 127 position.  Slowly lower the slider.  You'll notice that the slider has no effect on cutoff until it drops below 64.  The reverse is true if you start at 0 with both controls. 

 

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Example:  Let's say cutoff is set to 127 in the hex tone.  Your slider starts in the 127 position.  Slowly lower the slider.  You'll notice that the slider has no effect on cutoff until it drops below 64.  The reverse is true if you start at 0 with both controls. 

 

ah, didn't realise this. so you can't get a higher cut-off by setting it to 127 in the menu and then pushing the slider up. It doesn't go up to a combined total of 191 (127+64).

So the slider's range in this case will be 64 to 127 and it maxes out half way up.

 

Thanks for your time Brad. Getting closer to figuring everything out :)

It's my first proper digital piano with any kind of synth features so a lot of this kind of detail is probably widely understood by most people who have had previous keyboards but it has been confusing me.

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