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Power is Nothing without Control.


Normski

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Power is Nothing without Control.

 

Shame on you Casio. I put my faith and money in you to be a Pro music retailer, but I feel let down.

 

If you are considering buying a PX-5s, Consider my points below. If you play with two hands and want control, this may not be the K/B for you.

And Do Not expect or rely on future useful updates, only ones that correct faults in the operating system.

 

It wasn’t so obvious to me when I first got a PX-5 that it has some really stupid failures. Things that you really don’t expect to be a problem. They may not be a problem to everyone, but many have also complained about some of my moans below.

 

I thought I could live with the omissions until they were rectified, but as time has gone by and with many gigs under my belt. I am coming to the conclusion that Casio are not going to do anything about them. And I am failing at working around these problems.

 

Such as..

In a live situation, How do you control master volume while playing? Please don’t suggest the two stage volume switching, its interesting but not continuous.

 

There’s no expression pedal socket and you can’t control master volume with midi, so you can’t even work around this with a midi controller pedal. Now I was aware it didn’t have this socket, but only through people moaning about it being missing. So that’s out.

A stereo analogue volume pedal is probably the only useable solution.

 

Mono mode is not available. Why. Absolute necessity to simulate a mono synth. Yeah you can play something close, but it ain’t Mono mode. So that’s out.

 

A Stage Setting is difficult to use in a midi studio to record and playback midi.

It should be one of the most obvious things you may want to do with it, even though it’s a stage instrument. But no. If the stage setting has more than one part, (many do). A stage setting permanently receives the 4 zone parts on 4 midi channels 1,2,3 & 4.

Try it yourself, Pretty rubbish.

This can be worked around by copying the recorded midi track to another 3 tracks within your Daw. Then changing the midi channel to 1,2,3 &4. This is for each track you use the PX5 for. What a palaver. Do that and concentrate on playing well too. Cheers Casio.

 

There are other ways of doing it with multiple control changes or sysex, but I think my way is simpler. These work around’s should really not be necessary on a Pro K/b.

 

A zone can be switched on/off by footswitch. But if you have a patch with two zones active to switching with one zone on and one off. The switch will only then switch the off zone on or off, then both off, then both on. A missed opportunity to be able to switch between patches, if they were flipped not just use once. Could have been a really good feature.

 

I like the idea of using a Usb stick to have access to waves, but why are they not namable. Having to remember mid gig what Wave001 or Wave023 is, makes it unusable reliably. It’s like a Dos O/S from 1980’s or is that exactly what it is ? The screen, the menus, the navigation are real old.

MP3’s would be even better too. Maybe add play lists etc. Another missed opo.

 

I know it’s a Stage Piano but the Organ waves and Leslie Sim are really poor. I mean really poor.

When will a Music Manufacturer get the message. We want proper Hammond clonewheel & Leslie sim included. Not some half assed attempt then give up and release it as is. Im too embarrassed to ever use these organ patches. If you want people to think Casio Pro, stop with the silly noises.

 

I have praised this K/B many times. But Power without control is useless.

 

I cannot see why these could not have been added. Sure programming would have taken some time. Im sure many would have even been prepared to pay for these improvements.

 

Im surely not the only one finding these a big let down.

 

I thought it would have been possible to have corrected these things in software and an update would put it right. I obviously never thought this would be possible with the expression socket. But I never thought the lack of an expression pedal socket would cause me to start looking at workarounds, but it has and that is where I am finding many things that are not as I would like. 

 

Come on Casio get your sh1t together, this keyboard was too good to mess it up with obvious omissions.

This has been on the market now for well over a year, So its looking pretty doubtful that Casio are going to do anything about this.

 

For me this maybe time to look for a Pro replacement, One that has gained a Pro reputation by getting it right, not one that I gaffa tape over the name. Yeah admit it, your all doing it. Even Casio did it themselves on the PX-5s predecessor the PX-3s. It only had Casio showing in small letters above the keyboard, On the audience side it only has Privia.

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Power is nothing without control, Normski, but even the control itself - as in many other branded keyboards - is nothing without power.

 

I believe you've forgotten something. Even with the things you mentioned, you deliberately hid that PX-5S is a wonderful lightweight piano - it's admittedly so sweet to gig with 10Kg - with very nice Piano and Electric Piano sounds, with more than decent synth/pad/strings sounds, 256 polyphony, drums, outstanding dynamic keyboard, and many many more features at a price which is half of what you usually find on the market today.

 

I know that PX-5S has some areas of improvement (agree on control pedal and solo mode), but it remains something unbeatable at the moment, even against MOXF or FA.

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Hi Normski,

 

some point:

 

1) volume/expression you are right, I solve this with Behringer FCB1010 (even considering that PX-5S born as Stage Piano...)

2) lack of Mono mode but again I don't see a product like the PX-5S the best buy for lead synth needs, both for weighted keybed and lack of aftertouch, that's why I use an Ultranova by Novation

3) Organ: as I mentioned several times I don't think that PX-5S is a viable organ solution, problems are (before sound and Leslie sim) related to the keybed. Even with a great sound and a marvelous Leslie sim if you don't perform them with a waterfall keyboard you miss a lot in terms of final result! 

As Joelfan stated above what moved us (PX-5S owners) to choose this product are all the good things that he mentioned very well...and don't forget the very competitive price!

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Figure an updated 88-key Nord, Hammond SK series, Yamaha MOX etc runs around 3000 smackers, each weighs a ton and I probably need a 2nd one as backup the PX5S looks pretty nice, limitations included. if you catch a sale maybe you can get 2 for about 3000-4000 US dollars or if they fell off a truck (I got my first SY77 at this kind of sale price many years ago and have managed to keep it a secret until now since my Uncle Nino's trucking company closed down, I don't have to worry anymore ;) )

 

Or I could get a full B-3/C-3 setup and connect a nice old 145 122 or similar Leslie or ProCo, an old "tine" piano-you'd need both a Wurlitzer and Fender Rhodes since they don't sound and feel the same. Maybe an old Farfisa, Vox or Crumar organ for all the cheezy sounds you might need to cover older 60s stuff.

 

And all you'd need to add to this setup for mono/poly synth sounds would be a good Prophet 5 and one of the large Moog or Dave Smith instruments-for polyphony a minimoog wouldn't do, and at least 4-5 control pedals for volume, patch change and CC pedal for timbre adjustments on the fly. And a small box truck or service van like one of those heavy-duty plumber's trucks since this all will weigh about 4 tons, and that would be just for your stuff, forget the other guys/girls in the band. Plus a travelling tech since guaranteed some or all of this will fail at the worst possible time. Will only run about 10-20,000 without the truck. And the tech-he'll have to be on salary since you'll need him all the time. Many musicians switched to guitar or are in rest homes because of this. If you see a good guitarist in a rest home, ask him if he used to play keyboards :P .

 

Many working musicians-self included-struggle to get whatever gigs we can and often have to fit in places slighter bigger than a bathroom and often with the same smell. I have to carry my stuff on me back including me own small sound system-I carry a small stereo 200-watt 4-channel mixer and 2 10" speaker cabinets plus a tiered stand. I think the PX5s begins to look a little less perfect on the face of it. And 2 of the companies that made keyboards that had almost everything one could think of for performing-Ensoniq and Generalmusic went completely bellyup due to poor business decisions, not lacking features...also weighed a ton for their 88-key instruments.  Just my opinion. No offense intended to anyone. Don't worry be happy. Back to my guitar lessons.

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Hi Normski,

 

some point:

 

1) volume/expression you are right, I solve this with Behringer FCB1010 (even considering that PX-5S born as Stage Piano...)

2) lack of Mono mode but again I don't see a product like the PX-5S the best buy for lead synth needs, both for weighted keybed and lack of aftertouch, that's why I use an Ultranova by Novation

3) Organ: as I mentioned several times I don't think that PX-5S is a viable organ solution, problems are (before sound and Leslie sim) related to the keybed. Even with a great sound and a marvelous Leslie sim if you don't perform them with a waterfall keyboard you miss a lot in terms of final result! 

As Joelfan stated above what moved us (PX-5S owners) to choose this product are all the good things that he mentioned very well...and don't forget the very competitive price!

Hi Leo

1, But your not controlling the stage setting volume, you are only controlling zone 1 volume with the Beringher1010.

2, I agree its not the best for lead synths, but would be massively better With mono mode, which is highly likely possible, but still not added to any updates.

3, Again I agree, a waterfall K/B would be handy. It’s the sounds that are bad. The casio K/b is still useable for organ playing, I use a V-Machine / VB3 with it.

The whole point of my post is that, A new buyer might think that casio would update to iron out things that many have said they disliked. But this appears not to be the case.

 

My criticisms were – and still are.

 

How do you control MASTER volume while using two hands to play.

This still stands. No exp socket & No midi access to master vol.

 A stereo analogue volume pedal is probably the only useable solution.

 

Mono mode. Surly this could have been added.

 

A Stage Setting is difficult to use in a midi studio to record and playback midi.

Try it yourself, Pretty rubbish.

 

And a few other suggestions that would probably have been possible to have been programmed in to an update.

 

I still stand by these criticisms.

The sound is very good, but you really need to be able to fully control a Pro Stage K/b.

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I tend to use the master volume knob to adjust the master volume when I am playing.

 

Yes Knuckles....  The volume knobs works well for me.  I can spare my left hand for a moment.  LOL   Other scenarios where I might want foot control....a single zone midi pedal would work fine.   

 

For mono lead synth with oscillator sync I have the XW-G1.  That and the PX-5s are an awesome combo!

 

For midi recording, I record to midi channels 1-4 and playback to those channels.  Works fine.  

 

If I really need organ(which I almost never do)...that goes to my MZ-2000.  

 

And nothing led me to believe that Casio would add anything to my PX-5s through firmware updates.   They did add things early on and they were happy bonuses in my book.   :D

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Normski,

 

Welcome to the forum.  I don't think anyone here will argue with your criticism about an expression pedal input.  It is certainly something that I had hoped for.  That being said there are many workable solutions that can make one work without too much hassle.  Physically as I'm sure you know, one can not be added.

 

Recording a Stage Setting in a DAW - EASY!  Arm 4 tracks on 4 MIDI channels when you record.  Simple as that, not rubbish at all.  

 

Mono Mode - Still very high on my wish list for software updates.  I can't guarantee that that will happen but also keep in mind that Casio makes a product that is nearly dedicated to Mono synth sounds.  For a STAGE PIANO, the PX-5S has an incredibly deep synthesis engine - one that frankly rivals many dedicated synthesizers.

 

Correction to your misinformation above.

In just over a year the PX-5S Casio has released 3 firmware updates to the PX-5S.  Yes some were bug fixes, others added substantial new features that were not in the original instrument.  

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Hi Mike

Thaks for the reply.

 

You say - that there are many workable solutions that can make one work without too much hassle.

Can you tell me some of these solutions. They would be very helpful.

Im hopeing to adjust the whole Stage setting volume, not just one zone.

Master volume access via midi would have been a work around, but that appears not to be available.

 

As I have said many times. It sounds great. More control would make it even better.

Norm

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Hi Norm,

You could use a beagle-bone black ($45) to control the volume px-5s. It is a embedded processor that can accept input from sensors, small circuits and in your case could be easily interfaced to the a continuos pedal. With few line of code (Linux) you could send the right message to control the volume, however you could achieve much more than that. I already tested under Linux the USB connection of the px5s. I'm able to send any msg and also able to sniff any msg that the keyboard transmits in midi raw format. Arduino based solution are also available in the web and well documented but it may require more work. Just google Arduino midi pedal.

Good luck !!

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Normski,

Options as I know them.

 

  • Analog Volume Pedal:  Connect the main outputs to the input of the pedal, output of the pedal to your mixer or speaker system
  • MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller:  Can transmit on up to 4 channels at once (all 4 zones).  Could also be programmed to control Master Effect Input or Output level via Sysex - thus creating a Master volume control.
  • Behringer FC1010:  There may be some limitations here.  I do not own one of these but if it can do sysex, like the MIDI Solutions Pedal it could control Master Volume by controlling Master Effect Input or Output Level.
  • www.midiexpression.com - This one needs a host device such as your computer - but if you're using the PX-5S with a computer this a simple and elegant solution.
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Hi Mike/Ebonivar/Brad

 

Thanks for your replys. Plenty of options there.

 

I bought a Behringer 1010 because a few people on here had said it would work in place of an expression pedal socket.

It does not.
It can be used to adjust CC messages 1-127 of any 1 midi channel with each pedal and it can change patches. It can also send one sys ex message upon changing patches. These sys ex messages are not constantly variable, they are sent as one shot. So cannot be used to constantly adjust anything.
The CC channels available are only the midi standard of 1-127. This was where I was at when I first posted a message – Has anyone got master volume controlled by midi.

 

Many answers later, And I thank you all for the time you have taken to contribute.

But still there is nothing practical to use in a stage set up. Of course the analogue vol pedal is one way.

If the PX had a CC message to access Master volume with the midi CC range of 1-127 then all would be fine. Get a Behringer 1010 and adjust with midi pedal.
But it doesn’t, it may be CC 136.
There are plenty of Genric CC channels available, and also loads with very limited use ones that would have found a suitable home for Master vol control on the PX. 

 

Is this a contender for an update. Im pretty sure this would be real easy to add.

And just my thoughts so far of the suggestions given. Ta again.

 

Mike - Analog Volume Pedal: Yes probably the sensible low tech way.
MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller: I want to control Master vol, not 4 zones.
Behringer FC1010: See above
www.midiexpression.com

– I wont be be using a computer to gig.

 

Ebonivar - Master volume is easily controllable with sysex...I use it with the MIDI Designer iPad app, so I guess it should also be able to be accomplished via hardware, as Mike Martin has suggested.

- Im not using a computer live. Hardware looking unlikely.

 

Brad - Confirmed here too.  Under system settings is the master volume parameter.  Tweaking this sends a sysex message to Midi Ox.  Sending the same message back to the PX-5s controls master volume.

– Im not gigging with a computer. Hardware looking unlikely.

 

I really appreciate all of your suggestions.

Norm

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Everybody, why is it so important to be able to control the master volume with a MIDI foot controller? I agree that there would be many benefits from having the abilty to control individual zones or parameters with an expression pedal, but not the master volume.

I use a Boss FV-50L between the PX-5S and my amp and it works just fine. It has stereo in and out, plus adjustable minimum volume.

I can understand Normski's disappointment that the Behringer 1010 doesn't support sysex on the expression pedal. It seems almost as much of an oversight as Casio's omission of an expression pedal input .... but then, look at everything else you DO get on the PX-5S ... there's no denying that it's incredible value for money!

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I had a quick email exchange with John at MIDI Solutions. He confirmed that the Pedal Controller can:

- Send on 4 simultaneous MIDI channels

- Do continuous Sysex to Control Master Volume

In addition you can set Minimum and Maximum values for sysex or other CC messages.

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Having spent some time using the Midi Solutions Pedal Controller in conjunction with the Px-5s here's my feedback:-

1. If you just want to control volume on channel 1 its fine straight out the box. But, In order to configure it to do anything else, you have either to ask John to do it for you or dig into midi coding. Currently I'm unaware of any application from MidiSoultions that will program the unit. I ended up using a pen and paper to work out the code sequences needed and then MidiToolBox on my IPad + CCK and a Midi Sport 2x2 to code up the SysEx sequences and send them to the Midi Solutions unit. Not for the faint hearted!

2. The MidiSolutions unit requires a vanilla (bog standard) midi input to power it. For example my Nord Electro 3, which is part of my rig, will happily talk to any unit I plug its midi out into except the MidiSolutions unit... This is because Nord's midi out runs at 3.25v, not 5v. Many modern keyboards are like this. There is no facility to simply plug a power supply directly into the Pedal Controller unit either. So beware you'll probably need to buy the extra midi through box and power supply from MidiSolutions in order to use the Pedal Controller.

I haven't yet tried plugging the Pedal Controller's Midi input directly to the PX-5s midi out, largely because that's sending midi to my Nord, so it wouldn't help my situation, but it may be that the Px-5s midi out is more standard as far as voltage is concerned. This sort of loop configuration would allow dynamic reprogramming of the controller pedal's function by the PX-5s.. For example providing expression control over different zones depending on the stage setup.

Finally a general comment. 1. There is no single or right way to use the PX5s we are all different and each of us has evolved different strategies for playing, each having different needs from our rigs. That's why it's hugely important that keyboards like the PX5s are as flexible and configurable as possible. 2. The reason why we are all passionate about the PX5s is that it is a really great product. One that enables so much in such a convenient package. With all that emotion and the fact that the PX5s is opening the doors to possibilities that really didn't exist at this price break before, it's no wonder there's a few raw edges to shout about! :-)

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Hi HectorSpace

Thanks for the info and your experience of the Midi Solutions Pedal Controller with the Px-5s.
Looks like even the work around, need a work around.
I think I will just stop my search for an expression controller to use.
Thanks for everyone’s suggestions.

Norm

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Midi Solutions controller pedal update: I have now tried powering the unit from the Px5s midi out. It works. Once you plug the px5s midi out to the Midisolutions midi input and its midi out to the PX5s midi in, you cannot plug any other midi devices in using the midi connectors and you have effectively got a loop. So it is important to turn off the Midi Solutions merge facility (they call it echo!) . As I stated above the unit is delivered configured to send the cc for volume, on channel 1, also midi merge is off. So if your rig is simple (ie no other midi devices) or you use USB midi for most things then this will work fine!

I can't help feeling life would have been a lot easier though if there'd been a couple of continuous pedal controller inputs on the px5. My current plan is to modify the px5s once the warranty period has expired. I really don't need 6 sliders and 4 knobs! Although I find I use the the sliders quite a lot, I don't use the knobs much. As far as i can tell these knobs are analogue pots. So I'm planning on adding a couple of switching stereo jacks on the back and paralleling the pots for knobs 3 & 4 through these and a little bit of protection circuitry. So when the pedals (I use modified Yamaha Fc7's) are plugged in they take over the knob operation. Because these knobs are so configurable and they're at the heart of the px5s system, the control options multiply massively without compromising the rig with extra wires, power supplies and boxes. Roll on next year!

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