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"Sound" advice


dlm

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I play in a band that has issues with sound setup...and I am looking for professional advice as how to properly configure everything.

We have two mic'd singers out front, two electric guitars and a bass guitar (all 3 with mics to sing back up), myself on keyboard (with mic for my sax and harmonica), & a drummer (with bass drum running through a sub woofer). All the guitars and keyboard have their own amplifiers, and all the amps and mics run into our 16 channel mixer, then out into two mains, way up front. Only the singers use monitors. Shouldn't everybody use monitors?

Our main problem is that as a performance goes on through the night, everyone keeps turning up their instruments/amplifiers, battling each other to hear/be heard, since there is no sound person running the mixer board after we do our initial sound check, and because (i believe) the instrumentalists don't have monitors. The result is one big, loud, unbalanced mess at the end of the night.

I hear my px5s through MY Motion Sound amp beside me, but obviously it's not what the crowd hears, so who knows when/if I'm balanced with everyone or not.

So, let me ask questions numerically...

1) shouldn't everyone have/share monitors?

2) should I run signal:

A)from my keyboard directly to the mixer, then back to me, mixed with everybody's sound through my own monitor/amp?

B) Or from my keyboard into my amp first, then out to the mixer & back to me, via a separate monitor?

C) or from my keyboard into my amp, then out to the mixer and then just out to the mains?

I guess I'm asking if I should just hear myself through a monitor or all of the band sound through the monitor, as one cumulative mixed and balanced sound?

(I really wish I had built in speakers on the px5s like the privia 350 instead of a never used battery compartment...then I could hear myself before I sent the signal away!)

3) how would a space station v3 fit into the setup scheme here?

4) how do stereo powered speakers for the keyboard fit into the scheme?

I am confused here as you can see...but I've never been in a band before, and I am finding it a bit "unenjoyable" to not be able to hear well at our performances, compared to at our practices where we just use amps, no mixer and no monitors...

I trust the insight from all of the wonderfully talented folks here at this forum...so I eagerly await your answers.

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These are heady questions! A lot of what you describe just depends. If the venue is small and the amps & drums provide enough sound for the venue, then running just vocals through the PA is not uncommon. Also, since everyone in the band wants "more me" I'm not sure that putting everyone in the PA would help that. I mean, they'll just want their instrument louder in the monitors then.

 

One thing that's a common problem is that guitar players often don't point their amps at their ears. Instead, the amps are pointed at their feet, and they wonder why they can't hear them.  :rolleyes: They often also drink, which seems to make people turn themselves up.

 

Built-in speakers on the PX-5S would probably not be loud enough to help you with this situation.

 

Having everyone in the monitors would only help if the problem is that band members couldn't hear each other. That doesn't sound like what you're describing.

 

When I run into a PA, I go from the keyboard into a DI (direct box) and that signal gets split to the PA as well as to my amp if I use it. Sometimes I let the house provide my monitoring but then I usually can't hear me.

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I'll do my best to answer these based on my experience - Also may want to ask at the Keyboard Corner
( http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/forums/18/1/The_Keyboard_Corner)  - if you aren't registered there - You should be!  :) 

1) shouldn't everyone have/share monitors?
In an ideal situation - yes - and these should be a "shared" mix where everyone can turn everyone else up/down with a monitor mixer - either an in-ear or speaker type system. 


2) should I run signal: 
A)from my keyboard directly to the mixer, then back to me, mixed with everybody's sound through my own monitor/amp?
B) Or from my keyboard into my amp first, then out to the mixer & back to me, via a separate monitor?
C) or from my keyboard into my amp, then out to the mixer and then just out to the mains?

I guess I'm asking if I should just hear myself through a monitor or all of the band sound through the monitor, as one cumulative mixed and balanced sound?

The answer to number 1 would be the best bet - with a dedicated monitoring system. Short of that, I would say being able to turn up the band mix separate from the your own keyboards is what you want. If you need to hear your own parts better you can increase your volume only for YOU and not have the band hear YOUR volume to go up... Once that happens.. well you know what happens. 

(I really wish I had built in speakers on the px5s like the privia 350 instead of a never used battery compartment...then I could hear myself before I sent the signal away!)
What Joe said - built-in speakers are pretty small and really wouldn't be of much help. You can however use the headphone outs as well as the line outs for more outputs. 

3) how would a space station v3 fit into the setup scheme here?
It depends on the venue - if it's a large place with a house system you would probably just use it as a monitor. Smaller venues it will probably be your main amp. 

4) how do stereo powered speakers for the keyboard fit into the scheme?
Stereo for live use is kind of pointless unless you use them for monitoring and you really like stereo OR in a real small venue (like a small coffee house). In larger venues the stereo image is lost and may actually make you sound worse (one side of the room only hears part of the sound).. Yes some of the big shows use stereo but they have arrays of speakers that provide the  coverage needed to project a stereo image. 
--------------


I will close in saying, that unless you have a dedicated sound person and a solid monitoring system, they only thing that will make for a good, balanced mix is DISCIPLINE. Someone needs to have the power to say "turn that damn thing down" and have it stick.

I have a horror story of a "Jesus Christ Superstar" stage production that was ruined because the 2 guitar players were having a pissing contest over who could be the loudest. Couple of kickers here: A) One of the guitarist was the music director's husband (she was on acoustic piano, I was doing keys).. and B) We had a drummer with a nice electronic set so it wasn't like they needed to keep up with his volume. He was the most disciplined player I have ever worked with (of any instrument).  Everyone had their own amp, sound guys were just doing the vocal amps from the singers body mics. 

Long story short -  the body mics on the singers kept feeding back because the sound guys needed to crank the vocals enough to keep up with the ever increasing volume levels of the guitar players. The director kept yelling at the sound guys until I told him it's the damn guitar players. He took their side by saying it's a rock opera and the guitars should be loud.  Well then!  :huh:
    Anyway - the whole show was just 2 guitars and distorted vocals with tons of feedback.

Moral of the story: Guitar players (most, not all - there are some disciplined ones) left unchecked will just keep going louder and louder if no one keeps them in check. Appoint a volume czar (NOT a guitar player) and their word is law.

 
 

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Joe...do you run stereo or mono into that di box?

I run mono. I only run one speaker for my monitor so there's no point in stereo for me. It's also easier on the house, most of them don't think in stereo either, or each instrument as a point. If I ever get a SpaceStation, that will change things at least as far as my own monitoring.

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Ah man I've been there!

 

Your best bet is the keep things simple and establish protocol for volume control ahead of time.

 

What I do to keep it simple:

I run mono to my amp (which is really a powered PA speaker). The amp has a balanced XLR line out that can go to a PA for bigger gigs.

I highly recommend doing it this way (or some similar variation).

On smaller gigs, I position the amp so it's both my sound source AND monitor. On bigger gigs with a PA it's my keys monitor.

 

You don't want to mess with stereo in the front of house mix as this will have your piano with higher notes panned right, lower notes panned left. Also, Leslie effects will sound insane.

Only on a really, really big gig in a huge venue with a pro sound dept do I run stereo anything. And then I'm running 4 pairs of stereo outs from mulitple instruments.

I need a drink just thinking about it.

 

To establish volume control:

First, everyone in the band needs to keep their heads screwed on. No turning up beyond an agreed upon point or destruction and mayhem will ensue!!

You can each give yourselves a little headroom for solos, but that's it.

If you've got a PA and a mixing board, try to get someone to mind it during the gig, or make sure it's located within reach of a designated band member.

 

In general, the more monitors the better. But for a small gig you shouldn't expect a ton of monitors or an elaborate monitoring setup - just one that does the job.

 

What l like/need to hear when I play, in order of importance:

1. Drummer (this can be achieved by proximity and not necessarily monitors)

2. Guitar

3. Bass

4. Vocals

Obvisouly I'd like to hear all of these clearly, but man I can't function without the drummer. I *enjoy* hearing the bass more than anything, but hearing the guitar is very important as a keys player since guitar and keys occupy the same slice of the frequency spectrum. Need to make sure we're not stepping all over each other.

 

Good luck!

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