Losing my MIDI virginity

[Cameron MacKenzie]

Hats off to those of you who put a thousand bucks or more into things Casio. At a warehouse store I made an impulse purchase of a more modest machine, the Casio 230R digital piano. After a few weeks of playing through my books of sheet music, I got the idea that it could be fun to listen to my ham-fisted playing while driving my car. To that end I bought the basic stripped-down version of Magix Music Studio software for ~ $40. It allows recording of tracks, mixing them, and mastering to a  CD. I found that my HP printer cable had the correct ends to connect the back of the Casio to a USB port on my laptop computer on which I had installed Magix.

 

I'll say what I expected to happen through this cable, and then what actually happened.

 

I had read that a MIDI cable causes a keyboard to act as a switching device. So I figured the voice (aka "tone") that I set the Casio to would not matter. Instead of hearing reed organ, for instance, coming out of the Casio speakers, I would hear the software's virtual piano playing through the computer speakers.

 

So I hooked up the cable and the software confirmed with a small text item that I was connected to a Casio. I noodled around on the Casio keyboard with the software set to record. I heard the usual sound coming from the Casio speakers, and did not notice any sound coming from the computer speakers. When I instructed the laptop to play back what I had recorded, I noticed these things--

i) The waveform shown in the track was low-amplitude compared to some "sound pool" samples off a Magix CD that I had been experimenting with.

ii) Consistent with (i), the sound coming out of the computer speakers was quite low, though I had set the Casio volume wheel fairly high.

iii) The voice I heard was in fact the Casio voice I had selected through the Casio's numeric keypad.

iv) But the music track was not nearly as clean sounding as when it comes out of the Casio speakers. It was more like what you would hear on a telephone. "Dirty" or "distorted" might be adjectives to describe it.

v) There was white noise (aka "static") in the track, which was especially noticeable in the silence between notes being played.

vi) There was a thunk when I got to the end of the track, where I had used my mouse to hit the software's Stop button.

 

Now item (iii) I consider a good thing, since I would be perfectly happy to mix several tracks of pure Casio voices for my CD tracks and ignore whatever voices the Magix software may contain. The other items... not so good. I read in the Magix instructions PDF that in MIDI mode one should set the electronic keyboard one is playing to "local off." I scoured my Casio 230R for such a switch, and did not see one.

 

As a workaround, I may try to buy a cable that has a quarter-inch stereo plug at one end (since I think that one of the jacks on the back of the Casio puts out stereo sound) and an eighth-inch stereo plug at the other (in hopes that the only eighth-inch jack on my computer can function as stereo audio input in addition to being audio output for headphones). Are there any impedance issues that militate against doing this? My expectation is that having the plug inserted into that jack on the Casio is going to make the Casio speakers cut out, but maybe will allow me to monitor my recording live through the computer speakers. If both sets of speakers are silent with this hookup, I have an 1980s-vintage mixing board that I can probably hook up so as to give me headphone or speaker monitoring of my playing on the Casio while in Record mode in the software.

 

Anybody been there and done that? Am I doing something silly, maybe? Any advice will be appreciated.

[Null]

Believe me man.

 

EVERYbody's been there at least once

 

Here's a little selected reading to help you get started...

 

http://tweakheadz.com/how-to-get-started-with-midi-and-the-difference-between-midi-and-audio-is-explained-along-with-many-other-core-concepts-for-building-a-home-recording-studio/

 

http://www.midi.org/aboutmidi/tutorials.php

 

http://en.audiofanzine.com/editorial/?tabid=63

 

Give those a quick scan to begin with and then you can get back to us when you are better able to articulate any problems.

 

MIDI is a devilishly thorough and detailed standard which has served the community well for the past 40 years with very few enhancements and fundamental changes.

 

Welcome aboard

 

Gary...

[Joe Muscara]

Apparently, the software you used can also record through the computer's microphone, because that's what you did.

 

 

This is probably better explained by the links above, but MIDI does not record audio. It records things like note commands, which notes and how hard. It's an abstraction a level or so away from the music itself. It's kind of like sheet music for an instrument, or the punches in a roll for a player piano.

 

If you want to record the sound of your keyboard, you may have to get an audio interface for your computer. I don't know PCs and which if any come with input jacks. If yours does not have an input jack then you'll need an interface. Many today work over USB.

[Brad Saucier]

This ^^^.  Joe nailed it I think.    To add...most PC's in the last decade or more have audio inputs in the form of 1/8" stereo headphone jacks.  Look for that. 

[Cameron MacKenzie]

Okay, a thank-you to happyrat. I read those links on MIDI, and they will be of value to me in the future, I'm sure.

 

But right now I think the answer is, "Cameron is doing something silly," as in Joe's idea that a microphone is hot.

 

I put the software in Record mode and tried the following-----

 

* Cable connecting Casio to computer, play notes and talk near the Casio.

* Cable connecting Casio to computer, play notes and talk near laptop.

* Cable NOT connected, play notes and talk near the Casio.

* Cable NOT connected, play notes and talk near the laptop.

 

Playing back those four methods tells me that the cable is not doing anything, and there is a live mic embedded in my laptop, but not one embedded in my Casio.

 

So much for me thinking I was making my first use of MIDI.

 

I'll get back to this thread when I learn how to kill the laptop mic and make the cable actually do something other than sit there and look pretty.

[Null]

Here's a video tutorial to help you get started.

 

 

Gary

[Cameron MacKenzie]

Alright, it will take me a while to absorb everything in that YT link from happyrat, but I'm working on it.

 

And to Brad, I can say there is only one 1/8" jack in my laptop (which is not close to ten years old). It has a tiny symbol next to it that looks like headphones to me when I shine a flashlight on it with my Grandpa reading glasses on. But perhaps it can function as input or output--I haven't been able to tell by looking up my laptop model on the Net.

[Null]

Laptops used to come with three jacks.  Mic In, Line In and Headphones/Speakers...

 

In their infinite stupidity and to save about 50 cents in manufacturing costs they have recently all decided we can live with only one multipurpose jack.

 

Depending on which version of windows you are running the procedure to turn the headphone out to a line input differs slightly but you can look up the procedure on Youtube.  Likewise a similar procedure to turn off the internal mic.

 

Or perhaps a better idea is to spend a $100 on a proper USB MIDI Audio Interface.

 

Either way you're getting closer to the truth.

 

Keep plugging...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gary

[Cameron MacKenzie]

Update for your amusement / schadenfreude

 

I bought a 6-foot cable with 1/8" plugs at each end, and bought a 1/8" - to -1/4" adaptor. As I expected, inserting the adaptor into the back of the Casio cuts out the Casio speakers, since the purpose of that jack is to spare one's family members from hearing the Casio while the person playing it listens through headphones.

 

I stuck the plug at the other end of the cable into the computer jack and tried to record some Casio plinking. No sound came from the Casio speakers, as mentioned, but also no waveform showed up in the track on the computer screen, and indeed there was no sound when I played the track back. I repeated this but added some talking, and the talking DID show up in the track, so the mic in the laptop was still hot.

 

Then this morning I watched the latest videos linked by happyrat and had that "Hey now!" feeling. Per the video's advice I right-clicked on my Windows speaker icon and went to the recording devices tab and disabled the Realtek high definition (ha!) audio microphone and enabled Realtek high definition audio stereo mix.

 

Sadly, the results I got when recording a track were the same: laptop mic hot, no signal through the cable.

 

I'll get back to this thread later this week if I have any breakthroughs. I may shop for happyrat's USB MIDI interface. May I presume that this is different from what people mean when they talk about an "external sound card"?

[Null]

Actually what you're looking for is NOT a USB MIDI interface, but in fact a glorified USB Sound Card.

 

Here's a huge selection ranging from $7 to $1500

 

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-keywords=usb%20audio%20interface&index=blended&link_code=qs&sourceid=Mozilla-search&tag=wwwcanoniccom-20

 

Offhand I'd say something like a low priced Behringher or a Focusright or pretty much anything between $50 and $100 should works just fine.

 

Read the individual reviews on Amazon and make your decision accordingly.

 

Gary

[Null]

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[Null]

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[Null]

After reading a few reviews I'd say stay away from the Scarletts.  Apparently they have horrible driver problems.

 

The Behringer Xenyx 302 USB might be your best bet.  Low price, hundreds of good reviews and apparently no driver issues.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-302USB-BEHRINGER-XENYX/dp/B005EHILV4

 

Personally I own a Behringer Xenyx 1202 FX for my own studio and I have to say I'm pretty much happy with it.

 

Gary

[Cameron MacKenzie]

Those links are appreciated. I'll do my due diligence on them.

[Cameron MacKenzie]

When in doubt, read the instructions.

 

The PDF help manual for Magix is 478 pages, and I had merely skimmed through it. Today I read the part on MIDI connections more carefully, and saw that there were some additional selections I needed to make with the mouse when preparing to make a MIDI track from an outside machine (digital piano). Also, the Casio apparently has to be on and connected before Magix is started. Success! The Casio was silent while the virtual piano played out of the computer speakers while I pecked at the Casio. A bar-graph-looking thing formed itself in the active track, and it can be played back and manipulated for note duration and pitch.

 

I still can't get my alternate (preferred) method to work-- Casio voice through an audio cable. I may send away for one of the "glorified sound cards" happyrat linked to.

[Null]

The technical term is "USB Audio Interface."

 

Sorry, I was being flippant when I first posted it.

 

Anyway, the addition of one of those should turn your laptop into a full fledged recording studio.

 

I STRONGLY advise getting the Behringer.  They have a good track record in providing budget priced studio equipment.

 

Gary

[Cameron MacKenzie]

^-----^  Noted.

[Cameron MacKenzie]

Gary/happyrat ought to get a sales commission  because I now own a Behringer 302 and a plug/jack adapter that I put into the headphone jack of the Casio and which supplies left & right RCA jacks. I wired said jacks to the input jacks on the Behringer (trying LINE inputs first, then 2-TRACK inputs), and when I made the USB connection from back of Behringer to computer, the Behringer's power light came on as orange. As expected, the Casio speakers became inactive. I tried playing something while in record mode in the software, and did not get a waveform to show up. I tried a variety of settings for Casio volume, Behringer gain, and Behringer main mix, as well as various on/off permutations of the pushbuttons on the Behringer for LINE/USB FROM & TO and 2-TRACK TO. As I came up on the Casio volume I noted that the L & R signal clipping green lights on the Behringer came on intermittently when I was using the 2-TRACK inputs (but not when using the LINE inputs), so audio is getting from Casio to Behringer.

 

Any advice? Should I try connecting the Behringer 1/8" headphone jack to the computer 1/8" jack, for instance?

 

 

 

*EDITED MINUTES LATER TO ADD*

With these Behringer button settings (not excluding all other possibilities necessarily, though)--

LINE/USB FROM  pressed down (which either means LINE IN or USB PLAY depending on how to interpret the label)

LINE/USB TO        not pressed on (which either means MAIN MIX or PHONES depending on how to interpret the label)

2-TRACK TO         not pressed on (which either means MAIN MIX or PHONES depending on how to interpret the label)

 

and with all the volumes/gains full up, I see a tiny waveform on my computer monitor, and if I turn up the computer speaker volume all the way I can hear the Casio's voice. It isn't very loud, though. And I am driving the Behringer signal clipping LEDs crazy by doing this. Again, this is through a USB cable to the computer.

[Null]

The problem is in the computer's MIXER settings.

 

You have to go into your computer's control panel, into audio settings and set the Behringer as the default audio input.

 

First look in device manager and check if the Behringer shows up as USB Audio Device and whether or not it  is working.

 

Then from there you should find the right settings to enable it as the primary input device and then you may also have to enable it in the settings of your recording software.

 

The videos I listed earlier in the thread should provide some help.

 

This might also help.

 

 

 

Gary

[Null]

This might be the most useful video but I suggest you watch them all.

 

Pay attention about 6 minutes  in.

 

 

Gary

[Cameron MacKenzie]

In a sense, I am now in business. Yesterday I was playing my Casio recording back from the RECORD function of the software, and it wasn't very loud. But today I went to the MIX function of the software and saw there were two more stages of virtual gain control (one looking like a twist knob and the other like a fader), and when I cranked them up, I got quite a satisfactory volume out of the computer speakers. I can also raise the volume of the recorded track in the EDIT function of the software, by a few dB, though not enough to make the amplitude look as high as it does in the sound samples that came with the software. My ultimate goal is to burn to CD and play through better audio equipment than my computer has built into it, but I have not yet tried to make that happen.

 

 

 

 

So the remainder of this post falls into the "gilding the lily" category, rather than being something I absolutely have to implement.

 

The Behringer provides left & right channels, but my software is either mixing them to mono or else picking out one of them (the left or the right) and making that be the waveform that shows up in a single track. If I really cared about having the lower Casio keys heavier on one side of my stereo recording and the higher Casio keys heavier on the other side of my stereo recording (and I'm not sure I really do), should I expect my software to be able to record two tracks simultaneously, one of the tracks being the left Behringer output and the other track being the right Behringer output? (My software allows up to 16 tracks, and I think if I wanted to I could do a mixdown at some point to effectively give me even more than 16 tracks.)

 

The other thing is that Gary's second video link says at 6:50 that connecting the Behringer USB cable to the computer will initiate a download of "audio CODEC." If my computer did that, I didn't notice it happening. What I can say is that when I plug in the USB cable and right-click on the Windows speaker icon and go to the Recording tab, there is an icon for "Microphone USB Audio CODEC" which was not there before. It has a green checkmark showing it as the default device. I can go then to the Properties tab for it, and then to the Levels tab, and slide the volume anywhere from 0% to 100%. However, doing this slide does not in fact change the amplitude of the waveform I get in the software when I do some more recording from the Casio. In the Advanced tab I changed the setting from its original 1 channel 16 bit 44,100 Hz to 2 channel 16 bit 44,100 Hz, figuring I might as well aim high and go for a stereo sound through the USB if such is possible. (I think what I have described in this paragraph is equivalent to Gary's instructions to "First look in device manager and check...", but my Windows 8.1 savvy is not all that great and I may be wrong in thinking this.) ... So it seems that this new CODEC is maybe not doing anything for me, based on the fact that its volume slider is irrelevant to the amplitude of the waveform. Is there a Behringer website that I can go to in order to download a CODEC? (I haven't looked for such a site yet.)

 

 

 

As I say, I could get by quite happily with the way I (with your generous assistance) have things set up now.

[Null]

Glad to hear that you have it working now.

 

As for the rest of the stuff, there's some things you just have to RTFM and Google and Youtube Search if you're stuck.

 

I'd suggest searching Youtube for "whatever-DAW-software-you're-using Tutorial" and start from there.

 

Gary

[CairnsFella]

Cameron,

 

Would have loved to help you further, not only to assist you, but also give these other guys a break   , but as Gary says, there is a point where you really need to learn the capabilities of your gear / software. Once you have read, then reread, and understood as much as you can it makes formulating any outstanding questions much easier, and in turn any resulting questions more specific, and easier to address.

 

One approach I try to use (I am not saying it is the best, but it has worked for me) is to look every part of the chain separately in order to isolate the points at which your problems may be occurring (sometimes it is more than one thing). For example, I believe there are alternate simpler options for recording the incoming audio, which may confirm or refute whether a stereo signal is reaching your PC.

 

Also - and I really hope that this doesn't sound rude, and I realise it may be a lot to learn - but asking these guys questions such as "Is there a Behringer website that I can go to in order to download a CODEC? (I haven't looked for such a site yet)." just suggests that you dont really want to make much of an effort yourself. I for one have been thoroughly chastised in forums (not this one) for asking questions in situations where I genuinely felt I HAD researched the matter quite thoroughly. I am quite certain that it would actually be quicker to search for a Behringer site and then the specific hardware, than it was to type that question here. Again, I apologise as I am not 'having a go' and you haven't upset me personally, but I am just stating it as I see it.

 

As it happens I have a xenyx 302 (I dont use it as I quickly found it a little limited, but as a very very basic interface it was more than adequate). If I recall, it requires either a Behringer driver or the Asio4all driver (though NOT BOTH). That said, I cannot recall if windows picked up these drivers automatically or not (this should have been observed when you plugged the device in). I do not believe that the microphone device you are seeing is the one you want, but then I cant recall for certain what devices should show up for the Behringer. I would be surprised if a little searching couldn't establish this information your you.

 

Of course, if you feel it is appropriate to ask more questions on this subject, then feel free. I am not voicing the opinions of others here, and I will help you myself if I can. (As well as ask questions myself) However I would reiterate that it may be better all round if you could learn just a little bit 'the hard way'. If nothing else, what you learn tends to stick a bit better then.

 

Good luck.

[Cameron MacKenzie]

^------^ Fair enough.

 

Again, thanks for all the assistance, and I'll try to take it the rest of the way by myself. If I wind up with any musical tracks that are not too embarrassing, I will upload them to this Casio board. But my warning is they are going to be "old fogey" material, ~ 1960s.

[CairnsFella]

Cameron, I do reiterate I am not a self appointed moderator (I have only just joined the forum myself.... with a list of questions), so if you feel you need to ask questions, you should. I was just giving an opinion that I thought may be beneficial  in the long term.

 

Good luck with it all.