Casio MZ-X

[AlenK]

Specs look good for the X500 model. Hex Layer engine X4, a "bass synth" and "Versatile Tones" that include articulations. It will be interesting to learn how the latter work and how they are meant to be played.

I'm going to quote myself here in order to constructively move the conversation forward. (Hey, it's what I do.) Pages 15 and 16 of the Appendix document for the X500 (pages 12 and 13 in the X300 Appendix) reveals some pretty interesting stuff. Such as, there are four Versatile Tones, all of them guitars (one is a bass guitar). They each use a combination of velocity-switched waves up to note B6. From there on up is a selection of what I assume are key switches for events including strums and special instrument-specific noises (fret noise, body slaps, etc).

Page 16 contains a list of "Sampled Pitch Forms". Going by the names these appear to be pitch changes for a variety of playing "articulations" that were presumably extracted from samples of real instruments as they were played. I am guessing that the X500 and X300 each use these with the existing instrument samples to re-create the same articulations at arbitrary pitches, which is a much more compact way to do it than storing samples of all articulations at all pitches (as some of the larger sample libraries do it). I'm not sure what options exist for triggering these but in the latest video Rich shows one being triggered by pressing a pad.

This is all very promising and should allow some pretty convincing instrument emulations. Yamaha has been doing essentially the same stuff for years, of course, but it's nice to see that Casio is catching up. I have no doubt we'll see more and more of this as Casio brings out new keyboards over time.

[XW-Addict]

I'm going to quote myself here in order to constructively move the conversation forward. (Hey, it's what I do.) Pages 15 and 16 of the Appendix document for the X500 (pages 12 and 13 in the X300 Appendix) reveals some pretty interesting stuff. Such as, there are four Versatile Tones, all of them guitars (one is a bass guitar). They each use a combination of velocity-switched waves up to note B6. From there on up is a selection of what I assume are key switches for events including strums and special instrument-specific noises (fret noise, body slaps, etc).

Page 16 contains a list of "Sampled Pitch Forms". Going by the names these appear to be pitch changes for a variety of playing "articulations" that were presumably extracted from samples of real instruments as they were played. I am guessing that the X500 and X300 each use these with the existing instrument samples to re-create the same articulations at arbitrary pitches, which is a much more compact way to do it than storing samples of all articulations at all pitches (as some of the larger sample libraries do it). I'm not sure what options exist for triggering these but in the latest video Rich shows one being triggered by pressing a pad.

This is all very promising and should allow some pretty convincing instrument emulations. Yamaha has been doing essentially the same stuff for years, of course, but it's nice to see that Casio is catching up. I have no doubt we'll see more and more of this as Casio brings out new keyboards over time.

 

Is that what it means for this instrument being "Multi Expressive Integrated". I'm guessing it to have a combined  AHL/HPSS sound source with an addition to hex. I love the specs but what I miss is seeing a smooth transition from and in a performance. And the loudness of tones is a bit on the soft side I know its a bit early not have seeing everything like mixing dsp/Eq capabilities to have the performance to come alive its an arranger right.

[CairnsFella]

Some interesting points raised here.

 

Personally I wonder how many individuals really delve into some of the technicalities prior to purchasing (or not). Things like the names for synth engines, how hex tones work, how much of previous MZ series are carried over etc. Many of us do of course - and it certainly makes interesting discussion - but do many of the 1000's (10's of thousand's?) of people that actually buy the gear.  I would have thought image, value, appearance, sound, and perhaps most importantly, 'hype' are the biggest factors.

 

To this end - and I am making an assumption that Casio is still a big deal in 'home keyboards' I don't see why this would flop, as has been suggested (Yes, I know its and arranger keyboard, but I still see it finding homes with more of the advanced Casio home keyboard owners than with the existing arranger market). Granted, the price may 'hamper' it, and it may not be a runaway success, but I think it's too early to call a flop because there are plenty of people that will quite happily upgrade to the latest and greatest Casio Home Keyboard. Even a potential one.

 

It was interesting to note Gary to suggest the "success" of the XW's as a comparative point. Again, I am not in a position to 'know' the situation, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised to establish either that :-

 

- the XW's were nowhere near as successful as Casio would have hoped (and I state this as an - on the whole - very happy G1) owner. or 

- the MZ will likely prove more popular than the XW line.

 

I do not believe there was as 'ready' a market for an XW synth as there is for the more traditional Casio keyboards, or even their pianos and stage boards (as they clearly now have a good reputation in that area as well).

 

There seems to be a very wide overlap with regard to what people to consider professional / non professional. As much as I love my G1 I really do not consider it a professional board. Professionals may use one, but by the same token many many item's of 'non professional' gear has been used by professionals, both in the studio and on stage. Casio's marketing in my opinion over hyped the professional aspect (as I equally feel they over hype and slightly mislead with the various technologies employed in their gear - though of course I am not saying that everyone else is innocent of this).

 

Yes, the XW is a great unit and for me it exceeds what " I " purchased it for, but if I had been in the market for a board for it's 'synth' primarily, I would definitely have looked elsewhere. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as the upside is that it is quite a unique offering.

 

Getting back to the MZ and the point I am alluding to, I am with several here that at this price I wouldn't get this board over some of the other major players, but equally I note many of the contributors are those that have been big fans of the synth capabilities of THE XW's and PX's and I feel that this group (even those that have earlier 'classic' Casio's) really want to see significant progress in those areas, I'm just not sure if that is the direction that this is meant to represent.

 

I believe AlenK mentioned some fair competition for the MZ above. Price wise I would have to agree that that Casio have it tough as there are likely some good sounding boards in that group. If I 'were' in the market for such a board and were purchasing without having heard the board (not that I'd do such a thing), the Casio would likely be toward the bottom of the list. I guess if you are a PX owner you may not be so hesitant, but the rompler element in the G1 is - in my own opinion - pretty damn weak for a modern board regardless of the price, or the fact that it isn't the 'party piece' of that board (I refer again to my 'non professional' assertion).

 

Even if I 'heard' the board, the Casio would really have to sound "better" than some of those mentioned before I'd buy it. I know that it has a lot of other features beyond the various 'engines' but for that price it really needs to 'sound' good.

 

But. As also mention, some people like Casio for their fun element, and for them perhaps the MZ does exceed the competition.

[Maurix]

the only thing i need actually is a " Yamaha Super Knob " on my PX5S .....because still too much under the hood to find out . !

[Patrick Arend]

This is just my opinion.

If the MZX synths sound as good as YAMAHA or KORG arrangers, then this would be among the coolest synths CASIO ever produced, and well worth the money.

I know the competition isnt putting samplers with multi function pads in thier arrangers.

And the MZX synths have almost as many sounds as the big three top arrangers and more sounds than the same price range.

When you look at the specs of these new casios, it  is clearly   more than  just an arranger type synth.

It seems CASIO has given the user a   fairly  nice amount  of everything for music making.

I  do think CASIO should have made these new synths able to use batteries, but then again i dont think the big YAMAHA or KORG arrangers  are battery powered either.

If these synths cannot compete with the big three, (soundwise) then these synths will flop.

I hope these synth/arrangers sound  as good as the competition.

[Brad Saucier]

Battery power would be nice if it was still light weight and ran forever on a set.  But with a 40 watt internal amp, larger touchscreen, a good number of backlit pads and buttons.... sounds like it would not work out.  I could be wrong.

[Null]

For most professional synth manufacturers a run of 1000 to 5000 units is typical for a new model.

 

Selling 10,000 is like going platinum.

 

Selling 100,000 is almost unheard of when it comes to pro gear.

 

Casio has a good solid consumer line of keyboards that funds experiments like these.

 

But unless the 1100 sounds on the MZ-X500 are light years beyond those on their CTK and WK lines I ain't gonna hold my breath for the success of the machine.

 

I own a Korg X50 I paid $500 for new.   It only comes with 640 programmed sounds and another 340 combis as they call them, which are basically split and layered stage settings.  The soundset is identical to the TR76 and basically lifted from the old Triton Line of synths.

 

Played side by side against my WK-6600 which I assume sounds pretty much the same as the more expensive WK-7600 or even the PCM sounds in my XW-P1 there's simply no contest.  The Korgs come out on top every time.

 

Nowadays it's all about how much sample memory they used and whether or not artifacts like looping are audible on sustained notes.

 

If the X500 is built upon the same old PCM sounds in the WK line and the XW I don't care what they call the engine.  Call it a "Zippy Whizbang Doodle" for all I care.  A ROMpler is STILL a ROMpler and unless these are totally reworked sounds they will definitely fall flat on their faces at triple the price point.

 

Gary

[CairnsFella]

Played side by side against my WK-6600 which I assume sounds pretty much the same as the more expensive WK-7600 or even the PCM sounds in my XW-P1 there's simply no contest.  The Korgs come out on top every time.

 

Nowadays it's all about how much sample memory they used and whether or not artifacts like looping are audible on sustained notes.

 

If the X500 is built upon the same old PCM sounds in the WK line and the XW I don't care what they call the engine.  Call it a "Zippy Whizbang Doodle" for all I care.  A ROMpler is STILL a ROMpler and unless these are totally reworked sounds they will definitely fall flat on their faces at triple the price point.

 

I really couldn't agree more.

 

I have a few pieces of hardware (I think it is pointless to compare software in this context), most of which is pretty old and which comprises Yamaha, Roland, and even Technics. All of these have better sounds than my G1. Strictly speaking only one is a rompler (well 2 if you count my old electric piano as well), but the others can still be compared with basic waveforms and the G1 still lags. Regardless of the G1's intended use I think it's still quite inexcusable in this day and age not to be able to produce basic sounds at a standard that was set more than a decade ago.**

 

I guess some people are going to compare the 'number' of waveforms available, but I for one would take half (or even a quarter or less) if it meant the sounds were better.

 

So I agree, stop wasting time and effort coming up with ultimately meaningless rompler engine names, and focus on the sound.

 

Of course I haven't heard the MZ yet and would would welcome being pleasantly surprised, but if I were a betting man........

 

** I always feel the need to qualify my statement in that I do really like my G1, but I still feel the basic waveforms are woeful.

[XW-Addict]

Casio has tweeted an introduction video it gave me a little smile I recognize the Casio sound so this is solid. 

 

[CairnsFella]

Casio has tweeted an introduction video it gave me a little smile I recognize the Casio sound so this is solid. 

 

It certainly looks flexible and useful for some.

 

Im still 'put off' rather then 'attracted' by the marketing elements though.

 

"Delicate authenticity", "new Dimensions", "Transcends". "Brand new playing styles". Such a lot of hype terms with no real meat to them. And then the overuse and - in my opinion - unqualified use of the term professional once again. 

 

The sounds seem okay to be fair (especially the hex tones). But nothing that seems particularly in advance of other arrangers. Maybe in it's price range it may be comparable, but then again one would imagine the video was produced to provide a flattering reproduction of what the board sounds like (Im not suggesting a false impression, but merely an optimally produced sound).

 

The touch screen also looks a little sluggish compared to the - admittedly more expensive and genuinely professional - montage.

 

If anything it seems like this board may find a home because of the numerous features rather than anything else. And thats great. It's the reason I have the G1 after all. But it certainly seems rather more derivative than innovative or spectacular.

[AlenK]

MEEDEEEEEE...

 

PS. Just so you know I'm making fun of the video's pronunciation of MIDI, which is quite non-standard (but completely consistent with Spanish, FWIW).

 

Don't worry about the odd turns of phrase in this video ("delicate"). It's from Casio Japan. I'm sure we'll get something considerably better from Casio America in the near future. And, if we ask, something more concrete about how the brand new features work.

[Guest]

The touch screen will act as an X/Y controller for effects and probably synth parameters like cutoff and resonance.  That's always fun.  I'm really biting my nails to get into the synth areas on the MZ-X.  This should be a dream.  

 

 Hi BradMZ and all, 

 

   Yeah, I'll take a chance on one of these MZ-X500 fun machines, no problem.  Too much good stuff on offer to ignore for the street price quoted and compared to anything of same price. 

 

   Just attempting to make a bound manual of the PDF of the basic MZ manual but Adobe Reader (latest version) keeps printing Even numbers where I've clicked on Odd pages only.   Tried it with a short test run of pages 1 - 7 several times but still printing Even numbers.   Anyone else had this trouble?

 

cheers 

[Jokeyman123]

Oh yeah! Priniting manuals from .pdf files is never easy in my experience. One thing I've learned-what the printer driver sees as page numbers is almost never the same as the pages designated in the .pdf. I speak from experience. I have printed Ensoniq manuals-never again! The TS-12 took almost an entire ream of paper, what a nightmare, I stik with tablet readers now although I still like to see stuff in print when I can. When I double-side print, I always test a page or two to see how the printer will read the file, and adjust accordingly. I've had to do this with every HP inkjet I've used, even my Samsung laser doesn't get it right. The printer will see every printable object as a page, even your cover picture if there is one. All I can suggest is determine what the printer will see as page one, and adjust from there.

 

One example-if I see page 2-11 in my .pdf, but my printer sees this as pages 1-10, it will look like you are printing odd number pages but the printer will print out even as you've seen. It also depends upon the printer. I use an old HP 930c (huge cartridges easy to refill and cheap to buy replacements) which keeps double-sided printing pretty simple. Print one side, take out and flip around-reverse page numbers and go. Also make sure you know which is the top and bottom!  I always print short ranges of pages at a time just to be sure the printer driver won't throw a gear and mess up the entire run-it happens.

 

I've also tried "bookprint" and other software in the Windows world which is supposed to make printing booklets easier. I haven't had much luck with those either-they only confuse the native printer driver even more-which do you use, the printer driver settings or the "bookprint" settings?  And good luck guessing which one will actually work-usually neither!  I've used both Apple and Windows platforms, there is not much difference in difficulty when it comes to printing although the pro Apple laser printers usually had pretty decent drivers and worked as expected. still had to use tricks to get the right page numbers though!  Hope this helps.

[Guest]

(pardon the snip): ....Hope this helps.

 

 

  Many thanks, Jokeyman123 for your informative response. 

 

  Yes, that is reassuring, thought it was my silly self at fault.  

 

   I'll carry on tinkering for a short while.  Otherwise, (its only money)...will present my pen drive PDF to the local print shop. 

 

(EDIT)  Decided on the Print shop alternative. :-)   Local print shop (Staples UK) quotes 21 UK pounds for the job, mono printing, metal spiral binding and transparent covers. Just getting my coat. 

 

  cheers, 

  eddie

[Maurix]

i think it is hard going from a consumer Synth Producer to professional users but i think PX5S was a milestone for Casio bringing to the market some unique Stage Piano with an amazing Piano Sound a given Synthesizer inside for less and some other gimmicks, of course some things are not so good an could be fixed with updates but so often 

updates are missing after 2 Years and new hardware must be given to the users what really impressed me from the beginning was the Support of casio the firmware update possibility and still till today i feel the best synth or stage piano is the one with an software to be updated time to time, how o wrote before a modular synth with hard and soft updates are the future , now we see the MX-Z very nice very funny but ,.,,,not the non plus ultra Arranger i think all the other brands play in a category with it , for example an italian Brand made the VIVO Stage piano from scratch and 

it is a killer there is unlimited polyphony 320 Oszillators 15 seconds of true sample withou loops and a mix between 

AI and Synthesis this Brand will be a Killer Brand in the future believe me and they do invent !" so i think like the new

Yamaha Monatge ...going to be a leader today need s to bring innovative products.... like the PX5S was from the IDEA too the price....i don't feel to spend 1000$ for an Arranger ,,,if i own other synths like the old S03 still ginning me amazing sounds as a background GM /XG player ...maybe i will wait for the next real Casio Synth or Rack clearly Innovative like the Hybrid Piano .....

but of course Piano is a nice Brand and still Love what they do .. 

 

 

[Null]

Years ago I realized that I was printing a sh*tload of technical manuals and came to the conclusion that it was worthwhile investing in a comb binder and a duplexing laser printer.

 

Since then I've easily printed over a hundred manuals of various sizes all double sided and nicely printed and bound.

 

If you're the sort of person who needs a physical, printed copy of a document on a regular basis it's really worthwhile to invest in some simple equipment.

 

I can knock out a 200 page manual in a half hour for about 2 cents a page.  No muss, no fuss.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gary

 

 

 

[XW-Addict]

An surprise reaction I've had more from the PX560 and GP700 when they came out, Its exciting to see a new keyboard if it nice enough, Fits or replace the current gear is another thing personally.

 

I feel somewhat chilled for this new keyboard its a nice keyboard and it might sway me at some point. I don't have first hand experience with the MZ 2000

the feature it has are certainly worth it to try out. Sound design is part of an arranger of this type and of current keyboard when I see seasoned players go about them it always wows me that they bring out new ways of sonic.

 

I am glad that there is an arranger in the product line, I've never worked with an arranger before if I would there are other brands with more vibrant tones,

and demo's to fit but.... Casio line has products for all ages for a good price. And if this was before the XW series at the moment when I stepped back into keyboards  this would probably be the choice and new addition if the price was right enough to purchase and get into that new region of music making. 

 

I like synthesis even though its still a bit hard to grasp making sound make them move at parts and elements to it and create an atmosphere really does 

it for me. XW fit the bill I got the gears needed but even the gear that helped me learn new tricks and create stuff needs to get replace I'm not there yet XD.

 

Oh here Ralp Maten ]

 

 

There still enough space to work  things out

 

[Jokeyman123]

Gary-wow! What a setup. If I didn't have a book-case full oif manuals, fake books and actual reading books-what does a setup like this cost? And after reading all these posts about the new MZs, I'm doing some more wood-shedding on the XW-P1-especially the live sequencer programs with keyshift. If I could only wrap my head around the mixer for live volume changes of my tracks, this is very close to an arranger keyboard in that respect. Guess it will take more practice and video studying. Certainly the mixer is not intuitive in the XW IMO.

 

If the keys on the MZs are the same as the XW, I'm not too thrilled. I've modded my XW so it doesn't clunk when I play, but the keys are still a little too mushy for me. I definitely prefer the Casio hammer-action for just about anything.

 

Now put that color interface in a XW-I'm doing some research at Newhaven Electronics to see what type of LCD technology is available now. A Chinese company recently made available a new backlit screen compatible with some of the Yamaha and Kurzweil older non-backlit displays-with your choice of backlight colors. I have one for my SY77.

[Null]

Jokeyman >>>

 

A comb binding machine sells for about $80 on Amazon

 

http://www.amazon.com/Adjustable-Sheets-Binding-Machine-Documents/dp/B00WJL7P0G

 

Supplies include a few sizes of combs and a box of cover sheets.  Figure about $50.

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=comb+binding+spines

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_15?url=search-alias%3Doffice-products&field-keywords=comb+binding+covers&sprefix=comb+binding+covers%2Caps%2C174&rh=n%3A1064954%2Ck%3Acomb+binding+covers

 

And a Duplexing Samsung or Brother Laser Printer goes for about $140 on sale.  I have a Brother MFC-L2700DW which prints in duplex plenty fast and is compatible with Linux.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Brother-MFCL2700DW-Wireless-Networking-Printing/dp/B00MFG58N6

 

The printer also does fax and photocopying which I require for business purposes.

 

I bought the Brother last year as a replacement for a Samsung Laser Duplexer that died on me after ten years.

 

All told, this gear has paid for itself many many many times over in the past ten years.  The Laser prints for about 1-1/2 cents per page and I buy my paper in bulk at staples by the case of 5,000 sheets.

 

Print yourself up ten manuals or more and at Staples Print Shop prices this gear has already paid for itself.

 

 

 

Gary

[skyy38]

Looks cool! Can't wait to hear more details about this! 

 

 

[Guest]

  Hi HappyRat1:  

 

   That sure is a great print shop setup.  I'd be tempted but for the cramped space hereabouts.

 

   Mind you,  don't know if I could trust myself with that comb binder after a couple of cans.

 

      ...Might take somebody's row of eyes out. ;-) 

[skyy38]

Looks cool! Can't wait to hear more details about this! 

 

[Null]

21 UK Pounds man!!!!

 

That's like $35 for a couple hundred pages.

 

I use my setup to print and bind documentation for everything from computer hardware to music gear to kitchen appliances to power tools.

 

In fact, even before my Korg Minilogue has shipped I've already printed and bound the manual.

 

And even better!  When I sell off a piece of hardware or it dies on me, I can reuse the combs and cover sheets for something else.

 

$50 of binding supplies will last the average person a lifetime.

 

Likewise, the all in one duplexing laser printer is a must have for any home or home office.  I can't begin to explain how convenient it is to be able to fax a legally binding document to your lawyer or accountant come tax time.  Not to mention that I don't trust internet banking so I do all my banking by telephone using their faxback services to fax myself interim statements.

 

And on a sheer cost per page basis, the duplexing allows me to print half as many pages double sided and print at a cost between 1/2 cent and 2 cents per page.

 

Compare that to the cost of the average inkjet at anywhere between 30 cents and 50 cents per page.

 

And laser print won't get runny if wet, unlike inkjet which will smear all the way to hell and back.

 

I made the switch over a decade ago.  I'll never own another crappy inkjet.  I have a cheap single sided Samsung color laser for photos and full color documents and since 98% of my printing is monochrome I use the double sided duplexing Brother laser for all the rest.

 

Sure the initial cost of an inkjet seems cheap, but they are constantly clogging, breaking down and they rape you on the ink cartridges later on.

 

For economy, reliability and speed, nothing beats a laser printer :D

 

Gary

[skyy38]

Guess this is my cue.    We have been chatting about this in the Facebook MZ-2000 and XW groups.  For those of us who were there in the year 2000 for the original MZ, we have a good clue what this means.  Expect a new flagship Casio arranger, synthesizer and now sampler apparently, positioned above the WK and CTK line.  Expect to see new things Casio has never done before and specs beyond anything normally seen from Casio.  Expect awesomenessz!  

That is correct!

The MZ-2000 might have been slightly still-born, but it WAS Casio's second foray into the pro market, following the VZ-1 synth in 1988.

And since the beginnings of SERIOUS workstations in 1999 and all of the models that have followed, expect the MZ-X500 to be somewhat of a culmination of most of the ideas that followed through the years.

But also know this. Since the intros of their 2 performance synths and the awesome PX-5S, Casio is announcing their presence with *authority* and ignoring everything that everyone ever said about them in the past.

The MZ-X500 is NOT a "fun station" nor mere "arranger."

This unit is designed to go head to head with anything on the market now at ANY price.

Working pros who have been facing the prospect of another 4k drain on their wallets for the "Real Thing" are going to be greatly surprised and relieved, just as long as they take the time to audition this instrument properly.

 

The new sound engine in the MZ-X500 is the result of 15 years of evolution from the ZPI source to the AHL, to the AiR to the present MXi source, which, according to the AiR (PX-5S) is going to be awesome redefined.

Don't say I didn't warn you!

[AlenK]

High praise from Michael Boddiker and Stephen Fortner for the sound quality they heard from the MZ-X500 in the Casio booth at NAMM (as well as one of the higher-end digital pianos). Go to 12:06 in the video:

 

http://www.keyboardmag.com/video/gear/4723062711001#