Chandler Holloway Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) Hi all! For those of you who don't know me, I'm a product specialist for Casio here in Austin, Texas. I recently made my debut over on our YouTube channel with an advanced tutorial on the CT-X series arpeggiator, but I'm always looking for new opportunities to interact with the wider Casio community and offer help and advice whenever I can. If you've been paying attention to the back panels of a lot of Casio gear lately, you may have noticed that the old standard 5-pin DIN MIDI ports for outboard sync are becoming rarer and rarer outside of our high-end products. Of all the gear currently profiled on our main Casio Music Gear site, you will find that 5-pin DIN MIDI ports only appear on the following models: Privia PX-350 Privia PX-360 Privia PX-560 Privia PX-5S MZX-500 MZX-300 XW-G1 XW-P1 GP-300/310 GP-400 GP-500/510 AP-700/710 This isn't a trend that's unique to Casio; plenty of instrument manufacturers have been shifting their focus to USB-MIDI as legacy gear becomes less and less prevalent and mobile/computer-based workflows are seeing a rise in popularity. For those of you who only use keyboards as standalone instruments or for more tech-savvy studio musicians who prefer to have a computer involved in their workflow, this is no big deal. However, a common concern that I see come up a lot on the forums here is how to integrate some of our newer USB-MIDI only Casio keyboards with other pieces of gear without needing to be tethered to a computer. While 5-pin DIN MIDI is "peer-to-peer" data transfer, which allows for easy daisy chaining between instruments with the proper cables, USB-MIDI is "host/client" data transfer, which is more complicated in that it requires a "host" device to interpret and direct the flow of MIDI data. This is why we label our USB-B ports meant for USB-MIDI as "To Host" to differentiate them from the USB-A ports meant for storage devices like flash drives. Usually this host device will be your computer, which will allow you to sync the keyboard with all kinds of music production software. Every Casio keyboard with a USB-MIDI port is a Class Compliant device, which means there's no need to download extra drivers to get it working with your tools of choice; whether it's something as simple as MIDI-Ox or as complex as a full blown DAW, Casio USB-MIDI devices are designed with full plug-and-play compatibility right out of the box. Even so, as ubiquitous as software-based music production is these days, we still understand that there are plenty of Casio users out there who do their best work away from computers. This is a sentiment I can definitely understand as someone with a lot of outboard synths in my set-up, and although I would feel a little weird about bringing a laptop to a gig anyway, I only have a desktop at home so it's not even an option for me in the first place. As a recent XW-PD1 owner and/or starship pilot, I've found that there's a lot of potential in controlling the built-in synth voices with external devices, but seeing as how it's a USB-MIDI only device, I figured it was finally time to look into some computerless USB-MIDI solutions to get the XW-PD1 fully involved in my current rig. I did plenty of research before finally settling on a Kenton USB MIDI Host, but I figured I'd share all the various options I came across in the process so you can all decide on what works best for you and your budget. I'm going to do my best to consider the relative cost of each option without violating the forum's rules regarding the discussion of specific prices, but I encourage you to contact the manufacturer or their affiliated dealer directly for more information on pricing. Note that these solutions should work with any instrument that offers Class Compliant USB-MIDI, not just Casio gear. Make sure that your instrument doesn't require special USB-MIDI drivers before making your final purchase. Pre-Built Options USB-MIDI has been going strong for several years now, so it's no surprise that several gear manufacturers already have pro-grade USB MIDI hosts on the market. If reliability and low-latency are a major priority for you and you're willing to spend a little extra for something you can depend on, I would strongly recommend going with one of these options. Kenton USB-MIDI Host Price: ~$100 new, though I got mine used for $88. Kenton is a UK-based company so shipping and import fees may apply. I/O: DIN-MIDI In, DIN-MIDI Out, USB Host Port. If you order new (or apply a firmware update to an older used model), your unit should have the ability to work with powered USB Hubs straight out of the box, meaning you can send MIDI messages from the DIN-MIDI In port to up to 4 USB-MIDI only devices connected through the hub. Likewise, you can receive messages from several USB-MIDI devices and send them all out through the DIN-MIDI Out port. You cannot use hub functionality to send MIDI Messages from one USB-MIDI device to another USB-MIDI device; only from DIN to USB and vice versa. Power: 5V USB through a Mini-USB connector on the back. This means you can power it from any USB-A "flash drive" type connection, like the "To Device" ports you'll find on many Casio instruments. If you're using it with a powered USB hub and that hub has a USB-A port designated for charging only, you can power it from there and save an outlet. You can always use a standard USB wall plug like the kind you charge your phone with if you'd prefer. Other Notes: This is what I ended up going with at first, though I later upgraded to the RK-006 when my synth collection got bigger. I had no issues with it when I had the Kenton, though. It's built very sturdy, and being able to power it directly from the device port on my CT-X3000 is a plus. USB hub functionality also helps if you ever decide to add any other USB-MIDI only devices to the rig. However, if you're looking to connect a USB-MIDI only device to another USB-MIDI device, you'll have to look elsewhere. HobbyTronics MIDI USB to DIN Converter Price: ~$50 new. HobbyTronics is a European company so shipping and import fees may apply. I/O: DIN-MIDI In, DIN-MIDI Out, USB Host Port. Unlike the Kenton host, this converter is not compatible with USB hubs. You can only connect one USB-MIDI device at a time, and it will receive all messages that appear at the DIN-MIDI in port. Any MIDI messages you send from your USB-MIDI device will likewise be passed through the DIN-MIDI out port. Power: 5V USB through a Mini-USB connector on the back. This means you can power it from any USB-A "flash drive" type connection, like the "To Device" ports you'll find on many Casio instruments. You can always use a standard USB wall plug like the kind you charge your phone with if you'd prefer. Other Notes: This is probably the cheapest pre-built option out there, and it gets the job done. It's reliable but limited compared to the Kenton host in that it lacks USB hub support. USB power is a plus if you have a USB-A slot to power it from instead of using up another outlet. DOREMiDi USB-MIDI Host Price: ~$45 new, ~$60 new for the "high-speed", firmware updateable version. I/O: DIN-MIDI In, DIN-MIDI Out, USB Host Port. Unlike the Kenton host, this converter is not compatible with USB hubs. You can only connect one USB-MIDI device at a time, and it will receive all messages that appear at the DIN-MIDI in port. Any MIDI messages you send from your USB-MIDI device will likewise be passed through the DIN-MIDI out port. Power: 5V USB through a USB-B connector on the back. This means you can power it from any USB-A "flash drive" type connection, like the "To Device" ports you'll find on many Casio instruments. You can always use a standard USB wall plug like the kind you charge your phone with if you'd prefer, or a portable USB battery pack. Other Notes: A recent addition to the list, notable for its low price and rugged metal enclosure. If you're looking for something simple, I would still advise you to spend the extra for the Kenton given its USB-hub support and proven track record, but the price point and (apparent) rugged construction here inspire some confidence. Note that they have a $45 base model, and a $60 "high-speed" version, although the only difference I've noticed for the $60 version is that it's firmware updateable. It only talks about firmware updates as they relate to supporting a wider selection of USB-MIDI devices (possibly to account for proprietary USB-MIDI drivers for specialty gear), no mention of introducing eventual support for USB hubs like the Kenton does. MIDIPlus USB-MIDI Host Price: ~$55 new. The MIDIPlus is shipped through Amazon unlike other offerings on this list. I/O: DIN-MIDI In, DIN-MIDI Out, USB Host Port. This converter is not compatible with USB hubs, and can only be connected to one USB-MIDI device at a time. All messages that appear at the DIN-MIDI in port will be passed to your USB-MIDI device, and all MIDI messages sent for USB-MIDI device will likewise be passed through the DIN-MIDI out port. Power: 5V USB through a Mini-USB connector on the back. This means you can power it from any USB-A "flash drive" type connection, like the "To Device" ports you'll find on many Casio instruments. You can always use a standard USB wall plug like the kind you charge your phone with if you'd prefer, or a portable USB battery pack. A standard power supply is shipped with the MIDIPlus device in box. Other Notes: This option is slightly more expensive than the HobbyTronics offering, but it does have a slightly more robust outer casing whereas the Hobbytronics option is more barebones. User reviews mention that the build quality on the jacks feels a bit flimsy, so consider that if you plan to be plugging and unplugging devices regularly. iConnectivity mioXM Price: ~$250 new. I/O: 4 sets of DIN-MIDI In and Out ports, 4 USB Host Ports, an ethernet port for RTP/Network MIDI, and a USB device port for connections to a computer. The USB Host ports are compatible with powered USB hubs, allowing up to 8 USB-MIDI devices to be connected at once. Bundled software allows you to create MIDI routing set-ups and save them to the mioXM's memory, 4 of which can be recalled at any time with dedicated buttons. Notable as the only device that can host multiple and transmit messages between multiple USB-MIDI devices without the need of an extra hub thanks to its 4 dedicated USB host ports (the RK-006 can do this, but requires an extra hub). Power: The mioXM uses a separate 12V AC adapter. The previous gen mio4 could run on USB power, but the mioXM requires more power because it can host so many more USB devices Other Notes: This is by far the most advanced and robust option on this list, so if you're connecting a ton of gear together and you change your set-up around a lot, you're definitely going to appreciate all the routing features, rugged enclosure and abundance of full-sized DIN-MIDI ports. The higher price makes sense because it's a long term investment with tons of utility; the USB device port is an especially nice inclusion, as it allows the mioXM to play double duty as a USB-MIDI host and a USB to DIN-MIDI adapter/interface, meaning there's no need to spring for a dedicated separate adapter like the Roland UM-One or the M-Audio MIDISport Uno. This is the only option on the list that doesn't run on USB power, so if you like to keep things portable or you don't have access to a lot of outlets, that's something to keep in mind. RetroKits RK-006 Price: ~150 new. Retrokits is a European company so shipping and import fees may apply. I/O: 10 configurable MIDI or DIN-Sync outputs, 2 configurable MIDI or DIN-Sync Inputs, and a Micro-USB port that handles power and USB-MIDI hosting via an included OTG adapter. The RK-006 is very compact and portable, but it uses the smaller TRS-MIDI connections to achieve this form factor. As such, you'll need to get some TRS to DIN-MIDI dongles to adapt the smaller ports to the full-sized ones if you want to use it your existing set of MIDI cables. They do sell starter pack bundles with some of these cables if you're a one-stop-shopper. In addition to translating DIN-MIDI to USB and vice versa, the RK-006 is compatible with powered USB hubs and unlike the Kenton, it can send messages from USB-MIDI devices to other USB-MIDI devices through the hub. It can also translate MIDI clock to DIN-sync pulses that can be sent out to analog gear without MIDI capabilities. The Micro-USB client port allows the RK-006 to double as both a host for computer-less applications and a USB-MIDI interface in case you ever want to connect MIDI gear to your computer for use with a DAW or other software. If you connect a flash drive or an SD card to the attached USB hub, you can even play MIDI files straight from those storage devices, which is VERY handy if your set-up lacks a centralized sequencer or clock source to keep all of your external gear sync'd together and playing long songs. The multitude of inputs and outputs can be routed and filtered to suit a lot of specific MIDI needs, and updating the firmware/presets can be done through a Web-MIDI settings page on Retrokits' website. The single button on the outer casing can be used to toggle between three routing presets on the fly, but loading in new firmware or routing presets can also be done through simple sysex dumps if you don't want to be tied to the WebMIDI settings editor. Power: 5V USB, separate out as its own power connector through the Micro-USB OTG adapter. When connected directly to the computer for MIDI interface usage, the OTG adapter is not needed and the computer will supply the 5V power. This means you can power it from any USB-A "flash drive" type connection, like the "To Device" ports you'll find on many Casio instruments. You can always use a standard USB wall plug like the kind you charge your phone with if you'd prefer, or a portable USB battery pack. Other Notes: This is the host option I currently use, and I love it (even if it's a bit small and it requires a bunch of dongles). If you absolutely must have DIN-sync capabilities and you don't mind having to spring for the little TRS-MIDI dongles to get everything connected, the RK-006 is a powerful option with tons of configuration aimed at the synth crowd. USB power and hub functionality are nice bonuses, as usual. The ability to act as a USB-MIDI interface when you do want to involve a computer in your set-up makes this an awesome all-in-one solution in a very small and stylish package. Tips for Buying USB Hubs Three of the above options have the option to work with USB Hubs in order to merge input and output from multiple USB-MIDI devices into data that's sent through a single USB connection to the host. There are plenty of options out there for USB hubs and adapter cables for mobile devices, so I won't make specific recommendations here, but when consistent high-speed data transfer is a priority, you're always better off going with a powered USB hub instead of an unpowered one. Unpowered hubs are nice because they save outlets and reduce the amount of cables in your set-up, but they are generally less reliable in terms of keeping input lag low (crucial for precise performances) and they also draw excess power from your device which may result in malfunction. Powered USB hubs require a power source other than your smart phone, and will usually come with an AC adapter separate from the USB connections to supply power to the hub. This is an extra cable to worry about, sure, but you'll save yourself a lot of potential hassle so it's often worth the trade-off for most applications. Also make sure that the USB hub can handle USB 2.0 or 3.0 and that it is rated for data transfer over USB, not just charging. DIY Options If you don't mind a bit of hands-on preparation and you want to save a few bucks, there are several DIY projects for USB-MIDI hosts out there. If you already have the materials laying around, this may be one of the most cost effective options available to you, but reliability might be a concern compared to the pre-built options. Raspberry Pi 3 Price: ~$35 new. Undoubtedly the cheapest option on this list that doesn't require extra assembly if you only want to use USB-MIDI devices with other USB-MIDI devices, but if want to use it with DIN-MIDI devices, you'll have to buy a separate USB-MIDI adapter. Older models of the RPi can also work well for this, but I've only personally tested it on an RPi 3 Model B. See the links below for examples of how to make this work on older models. The Raspberry Pi 4 has come out recently, so if you already have one of those, it'll work fine for this application. USB-MIDI hosting doesn't require very much processing power at all, though, so you don't need the latest and greatest model if that's all you're looking to do. I/O: The RPi 3 Model B comes with 4 standard USB ports, all of which can be used for connecting USB-MIDI devices or adapters. There is also an HDMI out port that will be useful during the initial configuration. Certain models of the RPi also have Bluetooth built-in, making it possible to host Bluetooth MIDI devices with some extra set-up. Power: 5V USB through a Micro-USB port. This means you can power it from any USB-A "flash drive" type connection, like the "To Device" ports you'll find on many Casio instruments. You can always use a standard USB wall plug like the kind you charge your phone with if you'd prefer. The RPi can also be powered by commercially available battery pack accessories if you want a truly portable set-up. The PiJuice Hat is a well-reviewed battery option that's compatible with outer enclosures, making it an appealing option if you prefer a robust, all-in-one solution. Other Notes: The RPi 3 is the DIY option that requires the least amount of set-up; if you're familiar with Linux, you'll find that it's as easy as installing raspbian on the RPi (many RPi's are sold with it pre-installed) along with some alsa drivers and running a few aconnect commands during set-up. Once you have it configured, you can automate the set-up process to run every time the RPi is booted, allowing you to use it completely computer-free after the initial fiddling. No soldering is required whatsoever, but you may want to design or buy a pre-made case for the RPi if you intend to take this to gigs, otherwise you risk damaging the circuitry with rough handling or exposure to the elements. If you're not very tech savvy at all, no worries there either. A ready-made disk image for USB-MIDI hosting purposes can be installed on your MicroSD card using free software like Etcher. Setting it up is as easy as flashing the MIDI host image to the SD card and inserting it into the RPi for a plug-and-play solution. Thankfully the RPi is an extremely popular platform among hobbyist users, so there's a very active user community that can offer support and advice if you want to learn more about computing projects or coding in general. Because the RPi only offers USB ports, you will need an extra DIN-MIDI to USB adapter in order to connect USB-MIDI devices. Be careful not to confuse the "USB-MIDI Hosts" discussed above with the USB to DIN-MIDI adapter you will need here; USB-MIDI Hosts are made to connect USB-MIDI only devices to other gear without needing a computer, whereas DIN-MIDI to USB adapters are made to connect DIN-MIDI gear to computers that only have USB ports. A DIN-MIDI to USB adapter is not capable of being a host device; all it does is take MIDI data transferred over 5-pin MIDI cables and convert those signals into data that can be recognized as a Class Compliant USB-MIDI device by a separate external host. Basically, it's like that "To Host" USB-B port on the back of your Casio keyboard, except instead of having both MIDI In and Out handled by the one USB connector, it's split into two separate MIDI in and MIDI out DIN ports that will work with older gear, but still be recognized by computers or mobile devices as if it was a modern USB-MIDI device. Again, you have plenty of options to choose from here depending on your needs and budget, and I won't go into too much detail here. You've probably seen these dirt cheap ~$10 MIDI adapters floating around on amazon and ebay before, and although they're distributed under several different brand names, they're all mass produced by the same company in China. They'll get the job done, but you get what you pay for in terms of reliability and durability. If you're willing to spend a bit more for a better quality product, but you don't want anything too complicated, I would look into the M-Audio MIDISport Uno (~$30), the E-MU XMidi 1x1 Tab (~$30), or the Roland UM-One (~$40). Helpful Links: A quick video demonstration of which commands you should run to configure the RPi for hosting purposes as well as how everything connects together. A ready-made disk image for RPi 3B or RPi4 USB-MIDI host projects from NeumaStudio, along with tutorials for configuring things manually. A more in-depth blog post that goes deeper into the technical aspects of set-up, as well as how to program the RPi to automate host configurations. A blog post showing how to configure an older Raspberry Pi 1 for use as a MIDI host. A blog post about an even smaller build using the Raspberry Pi Zero with a USB add-on board. Raspberry Pi's main website, where you can find information about how to install Linux and/or the required drivers on your RPi as well as other cool projects. HobbyTronics USB Host Board and MIDI Breakout Board Price: Both the USB Host Board and the MIDI Breakout Board will be about $30 USD before shipping, but HobbyTronics is a UK based company so import fees and taxes may apply. If you're connecting one USB-MIDI device to another USB-MIDI device, two USB host boards will be about $40 before shipping. I/O: Unlike the pre-built HobbyTronics option described earlier in this post, this solution takes more of a modular approach. The USB Host board will connect to a USB device, and from there you can wire it to either another USB Host board running the same software (if you want to connect USB-MIDI to USB-MIDI) or the separate MIDI Breakout Board (if you want to connect USB-MIDI to DIN-MIDI in or out). If you already have a DIN-MIDI to USB adapter (see RPi entry for details), you could go with two USB Host boards and then just plug your adapter into one end if you want to use it with DIN-MIDI gear, but at that point you may want to consider going with an RPi to keep things simpler. In any case, each USB Host board has a TX and RX connection for serial data transfer; when wiring a Host Board to the MIDI board, you'll connect TX from the Host to the MIDI In on the breakout board, and RX from Host to MIDI Out on the breakout board. When wiring a Host Board to another Host Board, simply connect RX on Host 1 to TX on Host 2, and TX on Host 1 to RX on Host 2. Power: Both boards have connections for 5V power that will need to be soldered to the appropriate point, as well as a 0V ground connection. Because it's 5V, you can power it via USB, but you could also use a standard barrel jack or a battery pack, although you may need an additional step-up/step-down converter board to adjust the voltage to 5V. Other Notes: When ordering the USB Host board through HobbyTronics' website, make sure to select "MIDI Device" as the desired software package to come pre-loaded when they ship it to you. If you don't specify during your order, you will have to go through some extra steps to load the MIDI host software on to them. This is the cheapest option you can get if you just want to connect USB-MIDI devices to other USB-MIDI devices, and it's very small and compact. However, it does require some assembly and if you don't trust your soldering skills, you might want to be careful about trusting this for a serious gig. Helpful Links: Schematics showing how the USB Host board should be wired if you want to build your own DIN-MIDI connector instead of using their breakout board. A short demonstration video explaining how to connect two USB Host Boards together for MIDI data transfer. HobbyTronics Customer Support. If you have advanced questions on wiring or potential power sources, please ask them here before making your final purchase. Those are some of the best options I came up with when I was researching my purchase, but if anyone else has any advice to offer, please chime in! If nothing else, I'm sure this will save poor @Brad Saucier from having to answer the same MIDI questions over and over. 😅 Edited July 27, 2021 by Chandler Holloway 6 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Saucier Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 You've gone the extra mile with this write up Chandler! Good job! Much appreciated! Although, I don't really mind repeating myself ...over and over.... Haha. I'll see if I can feature this thread somehow, or save it for future linkback. For the MIDI to USB adapters, another one I like the recommend is the E-MU MIDI1x1 Tab. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler Holloway Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 Thanks Brad! I'll add a link to the E-MU MIDI 1x1 in the appropriate section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jokeyman123 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 As far as a computerless solution for non Midi din boards-Midiplus makes a host box for under 100 bucks. I don't think it can be used as a multi-port device or connected to a hub, but aside from the Kenton, your solutions and a company called Sevillasoft-in Spain that also makes 2 different midi host boxes, these are the only ones I've come across that allow for direct usb to midi din conversion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casiokid Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 A WARNING: In my experience there are issues in using USB/Midi host units. They are certainly not as reliable as the old conventional 5-Pin Midi DIN. For instance I've had them 'crash ' on me during performance with tones hanging/sticking which I've never experienced in using keyboards with midi set-ups using the traditional 5-Pin Midi DIN At best USB/Midi units are a compromise of the real thing namely 5-Pin Midi DIN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler Holloway Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 Which hosts have you specifically had issues with? I haven't experienced a single crash yet and I've been making heavy use of my Kenton host device for about 2 months now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casiokid Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 When a 'crash' (see above) occurs it's impossible to define what caused it ie the keyboard, device or host unit? This is the reason why nowadays top of the range arrangers, with the exception of Roland arrangers all have 5-pin Midi DIN. USB/Midi is designed for computer use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jokeyman123 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 By the way, welcome Chandler! Glad you can pitch in. Give Mike and Brad and Joe a break! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler Holloway Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Casiokid said: When a 'crash' (see above) occurs it's impossible to define what caused it ie the keyboard, device or host unit? This is the reason why nowadays top of the range arrangers, with the exception of Roland arrangers all have 5-pin Midi DIN. USB/Midi is designed for computer use. Still, I would be interested to know which of the exact host options I described above that you had issues with. I can only really speak for the reliability of the Kenton host, so if you've had any reliability problems when using a specific kind of host, that's helpful info for others who might make a purchase. Even if you can't determine exactly what caused a crash in a particular instance, knowing which kind of host you were using when a crash occurred can help identify which models might be more error prone. I don't want to recommend anything inherently unreliable, after all, and I made sure that all the options I'd included that I had no firsthand experience with were well reviewed by trustworthy sources (at least with regard to the Pre-Built stuff, obviously your results may vary with DIY options as I said). I have a hard time believing that there's not one solidly reliable host among those four pre-built devices I recommended. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslyutov Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Computerless USB-MIDI Solutions Could you please clarify - Do you mean connecting one device with USB-B to another device using USB B? I think it is not designed to work that way. What do you mean by saying - Computerless? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler Holloway Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 This is a list of recommendations for standalone products that are capable of connecting devices that can only use USB-MIDI (usually via a USB-B port, like you mentioned). You're right that USB-MIDI devices are not designed to connect directly to one another. Because the USB-MIDI transfer protocol is not "peer-to-peer" transfer like the old DIN MIDI but rather "host/client" communication, you need to have something to serve as the host for these devices and direct the flow of data properly. Usually this host device will be a laptop or desktop computer running some sort of digital audio workstation or music software that will recognize your instruments as MIDI Inputs and Outputs. However, there are plenty of musicians out there who don't like to use computers onstage or in the studio, but still want to be able to use instruments that only have a USB-B port for MIDI communication. Because this problem is so common, many gear manufacturers and hobbyists have developed standalone USB-MIDI Hosts that specifically handle the transfer and sync functionality for USB-MIDI devices. This post is meant to serve as a comparison of various options based on price, functionality and reliability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslyutov Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 It seems obvious that only very basic instruments do not have MIDI interface. The price difference between no pure MIDI device and entry level for devices with MIDI is minimal. Therefore it does not make sense to attempt to save on this option. I would say that most people who get trouble with the absence of MIDI just have a lack of an experience. You cannot solve that since this price range targets exactly this category of customers. For instance, if we take CDP and PX . the price difference with all discounts would be about $100. Sales price would be about 350 and 450. The good solution is just to discontinue CDP If a customer wants to add a pure MIDI the best he can do it is to trade the device in and get the one with the desired interface. The trade-in I the best solution for the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslyutov Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Chandler, If you are representing Casio. I am just wondering whether you(Casio) recognize a loud mechanical noise from keys on PX series as a subject for improvement. thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler Holloway Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 We make keyboards for a wide variety of musicians of all skill levels, budgets, and needs. If a potential buyer absolutely needs DIN-MIDI for use with legacy gear, they are welcome to save up the extra cash and get one of our higher-end boards that has MIDI In and Out ports (like you said, saving up and trading in is the best option in a lot of ways). Our amateur and intermediate products will not have DIN-MIDI, because interfacing with legacy gear that can only use DIN-MIDI is usually not a high priority for amateur and intermediate users. Including USB-MIDI is a good compromise as it still allows you to connect your computer and use music production software and music education software, which are popular with musicians of this skill level, and the USB port also allows for direct data transfer of MIDI files, registrations, and rhythms. You can also do data transfer over DIN-MIDI, but computers these days all use USB. You would need a DIN-MIDI to USB adapter instead of the much cheaper and readily available USB-B printer style cables, and that would be an extra purchase for the consumer to make just to connect to a PC. From the viewpoint of the manufacturer, small design choices like excluding two DIN ports on the back panel might only save a few cents on the individual instrument, but pennies add up to a lot when these keyboards are being mass produced for buyers all over the world. Like I said in my post, Casio is not the only musical instrument manufacturer who is starting to use DIN-MIDI less and less. If you look at the entry-level and intermediate level instruments of rival keyboard manufacturers, you'll find that USB-MIDI only is extremely common with those brands as well. However, we recognize that there will still be some musicians who don't want to use a computer in the studio or while performing, but still want to be able to sync these USB-MIDI instruments with their other gear. This is not a large enough portion of the market to consider switching back to DIN-MIDI or using the materials to include both DIN-MIDI and USB-MIDI on future instruments in this price range, but it's still significant enough that I thought people would be interested in some possible solutions to the problem of not having DIN-MIDI sync. So, in the interest of helping out those Casio users, I wrote this post explaining some possible options they can pursue. I don't really represent Casio to the extent that I have a large amount of control over the manufacturing or design processes of our gear. I am here on the forums primarily to assist with technical questions and provide tutorials for advanced features on our products. I would encourage you to report your concerns regarding excess noise on your keyboard directly to customer support, as they would be in a better position to address your issues or report your concerns to the appropriate department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslyutov Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Good answer! However, I did not say anything about my particular PX. I asked about the PX series (as a product). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Saucier Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 50 minutes ago, sslyutov said: Good answer! However, I did not say anything about my particular PX. I asked about the PX series (as a product). This is not the tread to discuss key noise complaints. It is off topic here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Saucier Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 This is now a pinned tutorial thread. The discussion was getting a bit off topic so I split it into a new thread. Please try to limit any posts here to questions or comments directly related to the original post. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jokeyman123 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Chandler-one more question or two or three....! What is in the class-compliant specification that is different from the non-compliant spec that allows the Casios to perform proper computer communications that other devices cannot? I am asking this since 1) I have been able to successfully connect all 3 Casios (PX350, PX560 and XW-P1) with either DIN midi/USB adapter cables or direct DIN-to-DIN, but 2) cannot connect older midi DIN devices using the same USB to midi DIN adapter cables? Just interested to know-I am guessing Casio has built-in code in these instruments that older non-compliant midi devices do not have, unless a separate brand-specific device driver is installed? To clarify-if I connect my PX350 or 560 to my computers (Windows based OS), I can use either the USB to USB industry standard cable connected to the Casio's usb port or the commonly designed USB to midi DIN in/out adapter cables such as from Edirol, Roland UM-1 etc. using the Casio midi DIN ports and everything is functional-XW-P1 editor, using the keys as controllers to software sequencers etc. I can not get the same functionality-cannot access any hardware such as a Roland, Yamaha or other sound modules or keyboards with only midi DIN ports connected to this same type of USB to midi DIN adapter cable, unless I install the specific branded driver (Roland, Yamaha, Korg, Edirol etc. and even then, not necessarily. If you study many posts here re connecting computers to the Casios, you will see many users here having mostly computer driver problems, and I think some of those may be due to the fact that some of these adapter cables are not designed to communicate midi data, only usb audio-and somehow the Casios work with these cables anyway. Am i accurate with that or no? Can you give me some clarification regarding this rather long series of questions-sorry Brad will tell you I never ask simple questions, i try but..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherscott Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 More... https://www.excelvalley.com/product/midi-usb-din-converter/ http://compasflamenco.com/midi-c-3/usb-host-midi-2-p-6.html https://www.thomann.de/gb/miditech_usb_midi_host.htm https://www.thomann.de/gb/mode_machines_cerebel_usb.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherscott Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 On 10/22/2018 at 12:56 PM, Chandler Holloway said: Retrokits RK-005 USB-MIDI Hub... A bit pricey ... but if you absolutely must have ... the ability to control USB-MIDI devices with other USB-MIDI devices, this is the way to go. Couldn't you also use any of the others to go USB-to-USB if you go with a pair of them (one for each keyboard)? Because in some cases, a pair of the more basic ones would still be cheaper than a single RK-005. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jokeyman123 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Never saw the Cerebral here in US at least not yet, looks like the best ocmpact solution. I've been to Sevillasoft, and am about to try a DIY hack I found here at this forum from another website for kludging a simple midi out from my Casio PX575 with a simple add-in chip to change the midi clock rate from serial usb to midi din usb. If this doesn't go, the Miditech also looks good, although I've read some comments that it doesn't always work with class-compliant usb devices. and in the US on Amazon, it is listed as a Midiplus-I think it's the same as the Miditech. An interesting question anotherscott-I'm not sure if 2 of these hosts can be "daisy-chained', and I haven't come across anybody who has tried yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Saucier Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 On 11/1/2018 at 9:17 PM, Jokeyman123 said: I have been able to successfully connect all 3 Casios (PX350, PX560 and XW-P1) with either DIN midi/USB adapter cables or direct DIN-to-DIN, but 2) cannot connect older midi DIN devices using the same USB to midi DIN adapter cables? This shouldn't be the case. The same USB to DIN MIDI adapter should work on all DIN MIDI keyboards, as long the cable isn't faulty and the DIN MIDI ports on the keyboards aren't faulty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Saucier Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 On 11/1/2018 at 9:17 PM, Jokeyman123 said: I have been able to successfully connect all 3 Casios (PX350, PX560 and XW-P1) with either DIN midi/USB adapter cables or direct DIN-to-DIN, but 2) cannot connect older midi DIN devices using the same USB to midi DIN adapter cables? This shouldn't be the case. The same USB to MIDI adapter should work on all DIN MIDI keyboards, as long the cable isn't faulty and the DIN MIDI ports on the keyboards aren't faulty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jokeyman123 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 You are right. I just threw out one of these. Took awhile to realize what was wrong. After some research, here and elseqwehre on the web-and buying a real midi to usb box a Midisport, I discovered with some surgery-the cable was missing key components and caused no end of headaches. Threw me off because it worked (a little) one one keyboard and completely dead on another. Another one that looked identical but wasn't, worked fine-not consistently for whatever reason-probably due to what i was trying to send through it and again after surgery i found the missing components were on this cable but not the other! Buyer be wary. It has already been posted here-the cheap Chinese USB to din cables are not all the same, and since it is a "crap-shoot" whether yours will work, I would recommend not getting any. I should have known better. Even some of my more ancient equipment now works since I slagged the cheap Chinese cables. I bought 3, and only one had the missing chips, only the one works, but not too well. Still bogs down if I try to send too much midi data. The Midisport, perfect. Thanks Brad, for checking my work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler Holloway Posted February 6, 2019 Author Share Posted February 6, 2019 3 hours ago, anotherscott said: Couldn't you also use any of the others to go USB-to-USB if you go with a pair of them (one for each keyboard)? Because in some cases, a pair of the more basic ones would still be cheaper than a single RK-005. You could just double one of the cheaper devices, yes. I guess I should have said "in one self-contained package" when I made that statement. Adding more devices requires more cables, extra sources of 5V power, and introduces more potential points of failure for your rig. Avoiding all of that (in addition to the unique ability to provide DIN-Sync) still makes the RK-005 the most compact and capable of the pre-built options. The high price tag is worth it, in my mind, because it'll handle all of your MIDI sync needs: USB-MIDI to DIN-MIDI, hub compatibility for USB-MIDI to USB-MIDI, din-sync compatibility with either USB or DIN-MIDI gear, and if you connect to your computer or tablet through the USB client port, it can work as a USB to DIN-MIDI adapter like the MidiSport Uno or the UM-One. If you want a cheaper USB to USB only solution and you're willing to go the DIY route, I would recommend the Raspberry Pi option. No soldering required, very quick and easy set-up, and it already provides several USB-ports for connecting your devices. You can pair it with a USB to DIN-MIDI adapter like if you need to it to sync DIN-MIDI devices as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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