TLc

1 hour ago, aminetti said:

Dear TLc, I am very interested to know what was your solution to the Midi Expression problem. I have a PX-5S myself and I found quite a complex route bu usong IK Blueboard, an iPad and a iRig MIDI to enter the keyboard.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

Alberto

Hey, Alberto.

Well, there weren't much other options, so I've indeed bought the MIDI Expression Quattro. It's pretty simple, but requires a computer in this case. I just connect the ME to the computer, and through its standalone/VST plugin interface set what messages it will send, and then stream it onto the PX-5S over its USB port (or MIDI input if you prefer).

I bought a Roland RPU-3 piano-style pedal set (all three are actually continuous control) and a Moog EP-3 expression pedal. They all seem to work fine with this setup.

As I mentioned before, Audiofront also have a MIDI Expression iO product which has 5-pin MIDI I/O and doesn't need to go through a computer (it needs power over USB, though, but IIRC the guy over there said it should be able to get it from the PX-5S' USB-stick port, but I can't verify that), but I haven't tried it myself and it's both more expensive than the Quattro and has only 3 pedal inputs. He actually promised to send me one for free after I helped him tackle some bugs with the VST plugin, but then didn't answer my last email. It's possible he just forgot, but I didn't feel like asking whether he remembers my free iO ($150, but meh... never mind).

14 minutes ago, BradMZ said:

Oops. Yes. Left for bass.  Got my words mixed up as usual.  Corrected. 

 

Using a mono tip/sleeve plug in the stereo headphone jack will give you one channel.  The other will be shorted out on the ground sleeve.  

Are you sure? As I mentioned, the recorded output sounds pretty similar in timbre to how it is right into my earphones (other than being mono). The one that sounds different overall is the Line output.

But, as the volume difference between the outputs is different depending on the note, I assume it could be related to the cable and mono/stereo signal. I guess I'll need to get a stereo cable for the Phones output and record both of these as stereo to really compare.

Still no answer regarding the noise, though. As the volume knob doesn't change the noise level (I assume it only changes the volume digitally inside the sound generator), it seems like it involves the internal amplifier which is consistently engaged through the Phones output. It is definitely not totally silent, so I don't believe there could even be a difference in interpretation here.

3 minutes ago, BradMZ said:

Left/mono out sums both left and right channels into one mono when the right is not connected. The right out only gives you the right channel.  Keep in mind the concert grand piano tone is a stereo sound. Notes in the bass end will have more presence in the right channel while the left has more upper octave presence.  

I had some further insight after posting it and edited my comment, so it could help if you'll read my comment now (but shouldn't the bass be more prominent on the left side and vice versa? Or are the reflections inside the piano supposed to reverse these?).

1 hour ago, BradMZ said:

I can't detect any major timbre differences in the sample you recorded.  I do notice it's mono, not stereo.  If anything, summing to mono sounds slightly different for each output method. Or one is not summing at all?  

 

And yes, very low level line out crosstalk is present on my unit.  I never noticed it until I amplified it as you did.  Never had a reason to amplify the line input before today.  

I'd say the difference in that demonstration is quite noticeable, but now when you mention it, the Phones output is stereo, and I connected the Line Out from the L/Mono. I can see the L/Mono outputs a mono mix-down of the two channels if the R Line Out has nothing connected to it, which is what I recorded. Now, the Phones outputs in stereo, and I connected it with a mono 1/4" cable. In this case it doesn't happen at the software-level, but I assume the cable still causes the two signals to be mixed into mono, and I'd say the timbre of the Phones output on my recording sounds similar to how it is through ny earphones.

9 hours ago, BradMZ said:

Hmm.  None of this is normal for a PX-5S. Headphones should be totally silent.  The PX-5S has very low self noise.  Since USB is not connected, that rules out usb ground loop.  Since no audio input is connected, that rules out the audio in.  Check system settings, sound generator, external volume. Make sure it's turned down to completely rule that out.   Batteries should be working as well. 

Well, the "External Volume" was set to 100, but changing it to 0 didn't silence the noise nor the slight crosstalk to the Line In. The crosstalk is quite low and would be recognized only if amplified enough, so I assume people might not detect it if they happen to try connect the Line In to a speaker by mistake. If you could check it with your PX-5S, connecting the Line In to an amp just to see if you can detect at least some sound leak, I'd know whether it's a defect with my specific unit or not.

I think the noise from the phones output could be a bit less audible when going through my Babyface Pro rather than directly into my headphones, but as I said, it's still there. The recording I'm about to post won't demonstrate it all that well as I used Touch Off at 100 so the relative volume of the noise is lower than usual.

So, the recording: I'm now more concerned with the timbre difference - it's actually quite huge between the phones and Line Out. I played a simple series of notes at a constant velocity of 100, each note first recorded from the Line Out and then from the Phones output. I tried to match the gain on the Babyface Pro, but as the signal seems to come out inconsistently differently between the two outputs, different notes seem to have different volume differences so it isn't even consistently matching.

http://picosong.com/Dg34/

Regarding the batteries, don't ask me why as I've checked last time to see they're all placed in correctly, but right now before posting this reply I tried again and suddenly the keyboard did turn up using the battery power. But, it didn't seem to affect the Phones noise.

EDIT: And here's a demonstration of what the signal leak in the Line In sounds like using the same gain as in the Line Out recording:

http://picosong.com/DgRR/

It was recorded from the L/Mono input. The R input seems to experience a bit stronger of a signal leak (because it's closer physically to the Line Outs? I don't know).

4 hours ago, BradMZ said:

Is anything other than the main power and headphones connected to the PX-5S?  Like USB? ..Audio in?  ..Line in?

 

For batteries...are they fresh new batteries? 

Nope. Only the headphones. I use an 1/8" to 1/4" adapter for that as I'm using an in-ear earphone by Shure, but I don't think should that induce noise, the connector looks pretty good. But I now tried something else - I have some old bass amplifier–really not the best option, but it should work–I tried connecting the Line Out (mono) of the PX-5S to it and let it do the amplification, and you can hear some humming added to the amplifier's speakers when just connecting the AC adapter (before even turning on the keyboard).

Regarding the batteries – yes, they were all new. I've unwrapped them just for this test.

EDIT: OK, I tried connecting it to my Babyface Pro. The input levels displayed by the BF seemed rather close to me–using the same gain settings the BF showed -6dB from the Line Output and -3.5dB from the phones output–the volume sounded similar enough in this situation (which is weird, I'd expected the phones output to become much louder/clip far easier, but perhaps that's the difference needed to drive enough volume in a headphone), but the timbre was different (even after adjusting the BF's input gain) – I assume it could be from the PX-5S's own amplifier coloring the phones output? Anyway, there's still some noise. It's weaker, though it's also different in character – instead of a hiss like the phones output gives, the Line Out sounds more like a buzz. The thing is, again, you can hear noise as long as the PX-5S is connected to the AC power (on or off). Only when I disconnect it from the wall power is the noise gone.

Another thing I noticed through my testing: there seems to be some sound leaking to the Line In of the PX-5S. I've accidentally connected my cable there first and noticed some sound. Again, I'm not sure how "expected" that is, and I wonder whether that could result in some "self echoing" if the internal signal somehow becomes fed to the Line In and then back from there into the output stage. It's really weak, so connecting headphones there doesn't reveal it.

Hello. This thread possibly involves two separate issues.

There's some noise coming out of the phone outputs of my PX-5S, one that is there at a constant volume regardless of what volume is the PX-5S set to output. I think I read about this somewhere, but I couldn't find that exact issue being cited when I searched for it at the moment. Anyway, it's not super-strong, but it's quite audible and you notice it as soon as the keyboard is turned on. I don't know whether that's regarded as "normal", and as the output volume doesn't affect the noise level, I thought perhaps it's some ground noise from the AC adapter. So, I tried running the PX-5S on 8 Duracell AA batteries – it doesn't turn on! Why is that? I've put them in correctly. Is there a chance something's wrong with the wiring that should go from the battery compartment?

Thanks in advance.

7 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

Look in this forum for my posts about how i modified the key action on my PX350-which has the same basic physical key construct as the PX5s as fas as I know. Look at my posted pictures so that you can see the actual mechanism and study the various parts of it-the metal fulcrum arms in particular. Then you may have a better undersatnding regarding whether your key action is functioning normally or not. As several of you have already posted, of course there will be a bouncing response when played lightly, since the steel fulcrum arm bounces back a bit after being struck down, even softly. but this mimics the action (somewhat) of the felt hammer in an acoustic piano when it bounces off the strings.  In an acoustic piano the hammer does not bounce back and hit anything so you will feel no "bounceback" wih an acoustic-any piano techs correct me if I'm wrong but that's what I remember. Of course you may get a nasty smell of old beer, cigarettes and other assorted garbage with the old "house" pianos, as well as the possibility of assorted goo on the keys. This is why most of us prefer digitals and bring our own boards.  I prefer to spill my own drinks on my keyboards.    

Wait, I'm not following. You say this mimics something that does happen in an acoustic piano or not? As I said, my upright doesn't exhibit this behavior, and I didn't understand whether you think my Privia seems on par with other units/DPs or not. I tried watching some videos of the PX-5S, but it's harder to tell when it is not shot closely or slowed down.

45 minutes ago, BradMZ said:

Yes, it is normal.  In the video, you are pressing the keys with almost no velocity. That is not normal playing technique.  

Well, it does happen as well with more firm pressing, it would just settle down a bit more quickly. If I'll force down onto the key like I have plutonium fingers it would obviously keep more restrained, but that's not how you should play. If I'll depress the key very, very slowly it wouldn't initiate any bounce-back at all.

EDIT: I believe you misunderstood the video, seeing your edited comment? The video is slowed down to half-speed (from 60fps to 30fps). The velocity was not that low and there are definitely notes being triggered. Listen to the muffled hums – these are the piano notes slowed down (the speaker wasn't aimed towards me so the volume captured is a bit low).

Just now, Scott Hamlin said:

I can assure you that the key-action behavior exhibited in your video is indeed normal for all the Casio Privias and Celvianos. I have played all the various models COUNTLESS times and they are all like that. 

Very well. I tend to believe you as there's not much point in deterring someone from replacing a faulty unit, but I wonder why raymb1 says he doesn't experience what's demonstrated with his own PX-5S.

Is that so? I seem to be getting contradicting answers. I think it's quite visible in my video (referring to you just barely seeing it); but as stated, it is (obviously) slowed down to half-speed. I did notice it while playing, but it should also be easier to see in my video. It appears across the keyboard, but it is less forceful at the upper keys (probably because their mechanism is lighter). I'm not entirely sure whether there are few individual keys that do feel less bouncy, though. It seems to be a consistent behavior of the keys, but the effect is possibly not completely linear throughout the keys.

Very well, then. I wanted first and foremost to know whether that's expected from the PX-5S. I do see thought that Brad says it's an expected feature of a hammer action (in general is what I'm getting), even if my acoustic upright reacts differently, while Scott seems to agree it won't truly be the same as an acoustic (at least mechanism-wise) but still praises its action's playability, so there's that. I just wonder how perhaps other acoustic pianos would compare regarding this effect as I haven't gotten to play many at all.

Also, I am yet to have a bag for my Privia and so I managed to bump the edge of the keyboard's casing into my stairs' damn banister, so there's already a dark mark on it. While I'm unlikely to return the keyboard, I like to at least take a couple of days before I begin demolishing a new purchase.

EDIT: On a side note, I'd also want to mention I've received the MIDI Expression Quatro adapter I plan on using with the keyboard. I haven't tested it with the keyboard itself yet (and I plan on buying a Roland RPU-3 for that), but I tested it with a Moog EP-3 expression pedal and my guitar inside a software amplifier, and it seems to work great! Really smooth response and you can easily change what output each pedal sends. I do feel like it was a bit expensive at $119 as the circuit for such A/D conversion is probably pretty simple, but the available offering of pedal adapters is quite slim, so I guess that's a pricing you can expect when there aren't many alternatives to choose from.

I'm referring more to the little hopping it does while being held down, rather than the return speed. I know it doesn't use springs, but there's obviously something different in its mechanism from say my own upright. Let's presume this is how all the PX-5S are expected to behave – how does it compare to other kinds of acoustic piano actions? Maybe mine is also really "un-bouncy"?

Hello. I've opened a thread some while ago about fixing the PX-5S with CC pedals before bying it.

I didn't have anywhere to try it locally, but eventually I have ordered it from abroad counting on the many good reviews, and I received it today just a couple of hours ago.

Well, I started fiddling with it a bit, and one of the first things I have noticed is that the keys seem to bounce back right after you press and are still holding them. I'm not talking about the bouncing it performs when coming back up, but rather that when I'm holding the key down it doesn't settle immediately as I depress it but rather bounces up and down maybe twice quite noticeably.

I'm really not a piano expert, but I have checked it with some cheap upright I own and it seemed to have no noticeable such bouncing (and the bouncing when releasing a key is more subtle as well). What's happening with the PX-5S feels kind of weird to me. Even if I don't have much experience playing pianos/keyboards and I haven't really played the upright I own since a year or two ago (I planned on using the Casio to develop my playing as well), I feel like it could hamper my playing as I suspect this shouldn't really be a "feature" of the action. It's especially noticeable and possibly problematic in my opinion when trying to play softly: as you don't come with much force which counters its tendency to bounce back, the bouncing moves the finger more.

Here's a 1/2 speed video demonstrating the bouncing (yes, my finger is at the very edge of the keys, but playing at the more usual depth doesn't seem to remedy this):

I doubt that's universally normal with pianos, but is that normal with other PX-5S as well or is there something wrong with my unit? I read so many great reviews of its action that it seems strange this wouldn't be mentioned.

Thanks in advance.

2 hours ago, Choppin said:

Midi signals themselves should have pretty much no latency.  You should be able to chain 10 midi units together and be fine.  There is very little data transmitted with Midi and the rate it's transmitted relative to the amount of data makes it very quick. The bottle necks are going to be in software and sound hardware.  The biggest bottlenecks come in the form of playing samples and analog to digital conversions (digital data into actual sound).  A poorly programmed DAW or one not setup properly can slow things down considerably. 

 

in terms of hardware, you mentioned an RME interface.  I know PCI type RME interfaces kicked butt in terms of low latency and quality - that's going back some years.  Perhaps their USB interface is good also. 

 

Well, just for playing with the keyboard and its own sounds, the person from Audiofront (of MIDI Expression) suggested me to simply plug in the ME into the computer and have the computer send the pedaling DATA directly to the USB port of the PX-5S. I don't know whether that should be any slower or faster than connecting it through the MIDI ports of the Babyface Pro. But, can the PX-5S both receive and send MIDI data over its USB port at the same time? Or is it either? Probably not very often needed, but that would be for situations when I both want the Casio's internal sounds and to capture the playing in MIDI. I Could use the MIDI in and out for that, but this would obviously require more cables laying around.

Perhaps, but it also has several things different functionality wise, so you can't really treat it as a replacement.

Anyway, I have just ordered the PX-5S so that doesn't really matter now. I can still get the MIDI Expression that has a DIN output, but it's both more expensive and 1-less-input than the Quattro, so I don't know whether I should get that one. I do wonder whether having the pedals go into the computer through the Quattro and then back to the PX-5S from the DAW introduces any noticeable latency, though.

6 minutes ago, BradMZ said:

Right. That adapter needs to be connected to a host device such as a computer. The PX-5S does not act as host.  Here is an outline of possible ways to control volume on the PX-5S.  http://us8.campaign-archive2.com/?u=8f46e9dc76624407f0ab846e4&id=61a7d7e9b7&e=%5BUNIQID

So what makes it work with the iPad? And is the ability to do so hardware or software based? That is, could a firmware update add the ability of the PX-5S to act as a host to such a device?

So, I have another question: the MIDI Expression only outputs over USB. I now know that the USB port of the PX-5S can receive MIDI, but I don't know whether that adapter could operate when directly connected to the Privia. The maker of this adapter (I think) told me on his forum that the device to which it's connected needs to operate as the Host, and he said that he don't know of any keyboard currently on the market which supports USB OTG. I did see that an iPad (with the Camera Connection Kit) can be used to change settings on the PX-5S through the USB port, but I don't know whether that's the same thing. The MIDI Expression is Class Compliant, in case that's a factor.

Also, it needs power, which I suspect the PX-5S doesn't provide through its back USB port, but I could use a powered USB hub to solve that one, as far as I understand.

As I said, I am to connect the continuous pedal/pedals through the MIDI Expression adapter. Asking about a triple board I have meant one that has two switch outputs which can go into the PX-5S directly (for soft and sostenuto) and one continuous for the half damper going into the MIDI Expression.

Though, to tell you the truth, while I didn't really want to spend $119 for the Quattro version of the adapter, it's either that or the $49 single one (or the $139 version which features only three inputs but also 5-pin MIDI ports), and the single one might be restricting if I'll want both a continuous sustain pedal and an expression pedal. So, if I'll buy the Quattro version, I could basically connect a full piano-style pedal board plus an expression pedal through the adapter. I could then use the included switch pedal for some other function within the keyboard, I suppose.

And looking at the last two replies from that person (vanceg), he seems very pleased with Audiofront's line of adapters:

http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10591.0

Hm... Well, I guess that could still work (if the no-merging is truly the case), but as I really have no idea yet how to use such a keyboard: if I want to record the keyboard's internal sound's output into the DAW, how would I do that?

And if there's really no pedal set I could make use of, what single on/off, half-damper and expression pedals would you recommend?

Anyone? I'm sure these are Yes/No questions and it's literally the one thing preventing me from placing an order already.

Then going back to my above questions...

Can I connect two on/off pedals into the PX-5S and have them as soft and sostenuto?

Is there a 3-pedal (with half damper) unit whose left and middle pedals are compatible with the PX-5S?

And just to be sure - can the MIDI over USB data from the MIDI Expression adapter be routed directly into the PX-5S, or can it only receive MIDI data through its MIDI-in? I have an interface (Babyface Pro) through which I can route MIDI back from the PC, though I'm not sure how does that loop work in case I want to listen to my playing from the keyboard while also recording my playing's MIDI data into the DAW. Can I have the MIDI Expression send the pedal's data into the computer, then have the Babyface Pro send it into the PX-5S over a DIN cable, and then output it from the PX-5S to the computer directly over USB or through the Babyface Pro's MIDI-in?

Thanks.

5 minutes ago, BradMZ said:

The choice really depends on how deep you will want to go with midi controls.  

Well, I don't know, I have never had such a keyboard. It's most likely I'll only use it to record stuff at home, though, and I believe I'll be more interested in something which I can use to interface with DAW-based instruments. What more, that PX-560 is quite more expensive. Buying the pedal-to-MIDI adapter would prove cheaper.

25 minutes ago, Scott Hamlin said:

I'd look at the PX-560 with the SP-33 pedal board.

I've already had that model suggested to me somewhere, but it appears that the PX-5S has more capabilities as a MIDI controller.

https://casiomusicgear.wordpress.com/2016/01/11/the-definitive-px-5s-vs-px-560-comparison/

So, I've been looking for a keyboard which I could use mostly as a controller for VSTs, also having a good piano-like action. The amount of products catering to this notion seems to be quite little, and I've eventually narrowed it down between the Roland A-88 and the Privia PX-5S (I've also previously considered the Komplete Kontrol S88, which have some really cool features and design, but apparently the touch strips [modulation, pitch] aren't too comfortable and the Fatar action isn't that great), and the Privia PX-5S is usually quoted as having the better hammer action (I'm less interested about the internal sounds, to be honest). I wasn't able to actually test any of these (and my piano skills are currently so-so anyway), and as I'll be ordering it from abroad I really want to get the purchase right.

The primitive pedal inputs of the PX-5S seem to be constricting, and I guess I'll need to buy a pedal-to-MIDI adapter (as there are very little MIDI-exporting pedals out there) like the Audiofront MIDI Expression. Now, I want to make a pedal set that includes a soft/sostenuto/half damper and an expression pedal. The soft and sostenuto send on/off messages, so I assume the PX-5S's two inputs should be able to recognize them, but could I program it so? The half damper/expression pedal would go into the PC (if I'll get the Audiofront product; it outputs over USB and I believe the PX-5S can't receive MIDI over USB [or does it?]).

Instead of buying tons of separate pedals, I prefer finding a 3-pedal unit from which I could attach the two on/off ones directly to the PX-5S and the half damper to the adapter, and a separate expression pedal in addition. Is there such a unit compatible with the PX-5S? I couldn't find any. And how weird does it feel using a continuous half damper pedal as an expression pedal? Audiofront offers a $49 single-input adapter and then a $119 quad-input one; it's quite expensive, so if I'll get the single one I won't use the half damper AND the expression pedal simultaneously anyway.

Thanks in advance.