Suggestions for future Firmware update

[anotherscott]

I don't fully understand your questions. But if it helps, bluetooth does not transmit analog audio. It transmits digital audio, and the receiving device has a DAC that converts it to analog. And it is certainly possibly to transmit multiple digital signals out of a single data stream, which are then routed to different places to be processed by separately by different electronics. The fact that USB hubs work is an obvious example... you send a single USB digital data stream out of your computer, and each destination device attached to the hub recognizes and processes only the data it is supposed to see (i.e. an attached USB printer, scanner, multiple thumb drives, etc. are all getting the info designated for them from the single data stream coming out of the computer into the hub). So sure, you can simultaneously transfer digital audio and MIDI (which is also digital) simultaneously over the same digital connection (whether USB or bluetooth, whatever). 

 

Whether Casio could build (for some future model) a board that would allow you to send your choice of MIDI or analog audio out a TRS jack is probably moot (regardless of whether or not it is technically possible)... I think it would probably be cheaper to include separate jacks, which would also certainly be preferable for the user.

Edited June 26, 2023 by anotherscott
more clarity in phrasing

[Maddog]

On 6/25/2023 at 1:55 PM, anotherscott said:

I don't fully understand your questions. But if it helps, bluetooth does not transmit analog audio. It transmits digital audio, and the receiving device has a DAC that converts it to analog.

So the Audio sent over Bluetooth is Digital as well.  I wasn't sure with it using RF Radio.

 

On 6/25/2023 at 1:55 PM, anotherscott said:

TRS jack is probably moot (regardless of whether or not it is technically possible)

TRS Midi is a real thing.  Korg, Roland use it.  Korg use it on the Volca's, Roland S1, and others.

 

It's a shame Casio didn't hang a couple out the back of the WU-BT10 or even just one regular 5 pin din midi port and allow it to work as either Bluetooth or straight Midi in the firmware.

[anotherscott]

4 hours ago, Maddog said:

TRS Midi is a real thing. 

I know. You left out too much of the quote . Your quoted me as saying "TRS jack is probably moot (regardless of whether or not it is technically possible)" when the  quote actually said (responding to your comment about Casio building an additional board) "a board that would allow you to send your choice of MIDI or analog audio out a TRS jack is probably moot (regardless of whether or not it is technically possible)" - the issue isn't the viability of sending MIDI over TRS, it's the viability of sending your choice of MIDI or audio over that same TRS connector (i.e. what you've been asking about through this whole thread). 

Edited June 28, 2023 by anotherscott
further clarification

[Maddog]

Ideally you would want separate TRS Jacks for this.  Normally devices which implement TRS - MIDI have dedicated Jacks which we don't have on these Keyboards.  The question that I was trying to get answered was is there away of getting the CT-S1000v to mimic a TRS - MIDI protocol using the available TS & TRS Jacks.  If this is possible then maybe it could be put into a firmware update allowing better connectivity with other devices.  I know from what we have learned from this thread so far that the problem seems to be the DAC now I don't know if this is a hardware or software DAC.  If it is software then it would be simple enough in the firmware to just have a boolean switch which would allow it to work in both modes.

 

The Analogue data transmitted over TRS has to be versatile enough to be able to create music.  At the end of the day it's a current going over a cable.  Even if the DAC is an issue, MIDI uses 0-127.  I think MIDI may be 5 Volts I'm not sure, I'm guessing TRS is 5 Volts also.  What I'm getting at it doesn't seem impossible logically to be able to reproduce the signal even if the DAC is in the way, unless I'm completely missing the point here.

 

It's not the end of the world either way, there are solutions to the issue of not having MIDI ports.  If the industry is trying to remove MIDI ports from devices and use Bluetooth or USB MIDI as a replacement then maybe they need to find away of allowing 2 device to communicate directly with each other without needing a host device or build hosting ability into every device.

 

[anotherscott]

13 hours ago, Maddog said:

Ideally you would want separate TRS Jacks for this. 

Right, that's what I've been saying, you need separate jacks. But once you're going to install separate jacks, unless it's a tiny device where space is at a premium, why use the TRS connector, instead of the 5-pin? You're then dealing with having to have more "special" cables around, as well as increasing the possibility that someone will plug something into the wrong jack and wonder why it's not working.

 

13 hours ago, Maddog said:

Normally devices which implement TRS - MIDI have dedicated Jacks which we don't have on these Keyboards. 

Not "normally," -- always.

 

13 hours ago, Maddog said:

The question that I was trying to get answered was is there away of getting the CT-S1000v to mimic a TRS - MIDI protocol using the available TS & TRS Jacks. 

Not directly, for the reasons I've already described. Indirectly? See next part...

 

13 hours ago, Maddog said:

Of this is possible then maybe it could be put into a firmware update allowing better connectivity with other devices.  I know from what we have learned from this thread so far that the problem seems to be the DAC

So again starting from the foundation that the audio jacks are physically wired to analog circuitry in the board, that there is no physical path for digital data to get to that connector, in referencing the DAC, I think you're suggesting that your solution to this would be to convert the digital data to analog. Could the board's firmware be modified to permit the digital data be converted to analog and sent out a TRS jack? Maybe. But there are numerous reason this won't happen, not least of which is that, even if were done, you would not be able to use a TRS MIDI cable to connect it to your external MIDI device... you would need an intermediate box to take the analog signal that has the analog representation of the digital MIDI data and convert it back to the actual digital MIDI data your external device needs to see.

 

13 hours ago, Maddog said:

The Analogue data transmitted over TRS has to be versatile enough to be able to create music. 

Analog data (as in information) can be anything. For example, the grooves of a vinyl record or the magnetic particles of the strips of a cassette tape contain "analog data" and sure, they can have music, or they can have speech, or they can have noise, or they can have (something close to) silence, and yes, it is possible for them to store digital data as well, but in analog form (and it would "sound" like noise, as I talked about earlier). But again, even if the Casio somehow were able to produce that signal, there's no MIDI device on the market capable of understanding it. 

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by anotherscott

[Maddog]

Do the Pedal jacks send and receive data or just receive?.  That would be interesting if they could make those work for TRS-MIDI.

 

I think you can use an iPad as the host device and connect 2 devices to it.  Has anyone tried this?.  I was wondering if you could connect the S1000V to the iPad over Bluetooth and then plug another USB MIDI device into the iPad cable and then be able to play the 2nd device from the S1000V's keyboard?.

[anotherscott]

54 minutes ago, Maddog said:

Do the Pedal jacks send and receive data or just receive?.  That would be interesting if they could make those work for TRS-MIDI.

 

For sustain pedal, I believe it simply makes or breaks (opens or closes) a connection, i.e. voltage passes through or it does not (and the keyboard is programmed to behave differently based on whether that connection is or is not made). 

 

Expression pedal has a potentiometer, so it can provide a range of values instead of only on/off. It receives a voltage from the keyboard, the pot (whose value you are controlling with your foot) alters that voltage depending on where in the travel it is, and the keyboard reads that revised value and behaves accordingly.

 

Whether sending or reading a voltage value is "sending or receiving data" is semantically questionable. But regardless, you're again running into the same conceptual issue as addressed with your earlier question. The issue isn't simply a matter of whether these jacks "send" anything, there's still the fundamental issue of what those jacks connect TO (inside the keyboard). Pedal jacks do not directly connect to anything in either the analog audio path or the digital processing path, they are essentially connecting to electrical circuits. In a way, these questions are similar to asking, if you were to run the Casio from batteries, could you use the board's AC power adapter connection to send audio. Sure, you could rig up its wires to terminate in a 1/4" connector, but there would still be no physical path to get audio to it, it is only connected to the power circuitry. You can have all kinds of connections on a keyboard... TS or TRS 1/4" and 1/8", XLR, 5-pin, USB, power... what they can do is not determined merely by their size/shape or by programming or whether they connect unidirectionally or bidirectionally, but are very much determined by what they are physically connected to inside the keyboard.

 

54 minutes ago, Maddog said:

I think you can use an iPad as the host device and connect 2 devices to it.  Has anyone tried this?.  I was wondering if you could connect the S1000V to the iPad over Bluetooth and then plug another USB MIDI device into the iPad cable and then be able to play the 2nd device from the S1000V's keyboard?.

 

That should work fine, using a MIDI routing app like Keystage or Camelot Pro.

[Chas]

10 hours ago, Maddog said:

Do the Pedal jacks send and receive data or just receive?.  That would be interesting if they could make those work for TRS-MIDI.

 

 

 

As @anotherscott said above, the jacks are just electrical switches. The sustain pedal jack breaks/ closes the sustain signal circuit. The volume/ expression jack will read a voltage range from the expression pedal (its a variable resistor). In either case, these signals are converted to digital values that the CT-S1000V's CPU understands. That is their only purpose, you cannot send signals to output via these jacks, they are designed to read incoming signals only. 

 

These are digital signals that are used as MIDI CC messages, and  can also be sent/ routed to other MIDI devices or assigned to trigger parameters in a VST instrument. On the flip side, other digital instruments can also be used to send MIDI CC messages to the Casio (via a USB host, and over USB MIDI only) and they can be used to control all the Casio's MIDI CC parameters also. You can trigger the CT-S' sustain, expression, volume (and all other CC parameters) from a DAW and without touching anything on the Casio keyboard itself. 

 

Perhaps try and see these physical jacks as having a single purpose, much like an on/ off switch. You can't "send" anything to the switch, because its physical circuit is not designed to receive AND send data. It can only receive a simple on/ off signal.