Piano sounds continued

[aron]

I agree with you. Do you find the strings to be good when played live? I find that they are very sterile - no movement and not full. I had to mix the more synthesized strings in with the real strings to make it sound more decent for live. Yes, I have very little EP sounds that I am happy with - maybe 3 at the most.

[raymb1]

2 hours ago, aron said:

I agree with you. Do you find the strings to be good when played live? I find that they are very sterile - no movement and not full. I had to mix the more synthesized strings in with the real strings to make it sound more decent for live. Yes, I have very little EP sounds that I am happy with - maybe 3 at the most.

What kind off amplification do you use aron?  I use a CPS Space Station Ssv3.  Best amp/speaker I've ever owned.  Everything on the PX5s and the XW P1 sounds very good through it.

[aron]

I used to run stereo (rack, 2 speakers), but then I ran through a period when I had a lot of gigs and lot of setup and breaking down quick. I gave up and now use a powered monitor. I only play in mono now -  although I am keeping my eye on another powered monitor for stereo use. I play through either QSC 10,12 or newer EV 12 or a Carvin powered 15. On some other gigs, I play through a Bose L1 system - it's the club PA.

I did see the Space Station but I would probably blow it up. On my jazz gigs, we sometimes play LOUD. I take the PX-5S, Korg Kronos and my Yamaha VL1 and it can get really loud. I know I would blow that speaker up, although I really need to start playing in stereo again. I had a chance to work with Michael Boddicker long ago - in his heyday with Lionel Ritchie. I drove him around etc and got to ask him questions. Cool guy!

[michaeln2]

18 hours ago, aron said:

I agree with you. Do you find the strings to be good when played live? I find that they are very sterile - no movement and not full. I had to mix the more synthesized strings in with the real strings to make it sound more decent for live. Yes, I have very little EP sounds that I am happy with - maybe 3 at the most.

 

 

I dont use the PX  for gigs.......it was bought as an Xmas present from the Wife just to practice on at home. The weighted keybed makes it a pleasure to play and to generally "lose track of time" when absorbed in practising. I just use a pair of "Studio monitors" for this purpose.......not brilliant but passable for practising.

 

The PX string sounds are not bad with a bit of editing.........I use the Yamaha MOXF for gigs which has some very nice string\orchestral sounds right out of the box. The Rhodes style EP's are very nice also.

I prefer the PX acoustic pianos over the MOXF........same with the Wurly style EP's. These really shine on the PX.

 

Also, the PX has an absolutely superb nylon guitar patch.......far superior to the ones on the MOXF. Really love that sound!

 

 I guess we can't have everything we want from one board!

 

A few words on the subject of stage monitoring on gigs.........I recently bought an Alto TS115a active cab for my keys. Very strange cab........at a low level it sounds nice, but at the stage levels we play at the sound just doesn't cut through. It also clips quite a lot.  Like the old saying "buy cheap, buy twice". 

 

May any try one of the Yamaha DX series.......heard a lot of good reports on these.

[Rocknrolldentist]

Hi Aron and Michaeln2--This is a very interesting display of taste.  I bought the kurzweil artis se 88 and after playing with it extensively returned it in favor of the 5x-s.  Although I dont particularly like the pianos in the 5x-s (as has been discussed ad nauseum), i found the kurzweil's EPs to be good but extremely limited. Kurweil gives you only 16 EPS-8 rhodes' and 8 wurlies.  Although they are accurate and sound good, I find the 5x-s has so much more variety between the air pianos, the digital pianos, the EPS, the crunch pianos etc. I did like the kurweil's pianos better than the 5x-s but the navigation, i found, for spilts, layers, and composing seemed much more difficult and not as user friendly as the 5x-s. Further, I didn't love the strings,brass or harpsichord on the kurweil.  If you play the strings and/or brass on the kurweil and hold the note, the result is a mono-tone note as compared to the 5x-s, which gives you a nice vibrato!  One of the experts at sweetwater said this is because although kurweil has added many things to their keyboards, they have not updated their samples in a long time--thus, they sound out-dated---and I agree. I just finished a stage setting with horns etc. for the Beatles' "Got to get you into my life" and ther sounds are fantastic, with keyboard sp[lits and layers done with ease. So, I'd say stick with the px-5s and see what it can do.

[Rocknrolldentist]

Hi all-- I've been playing with my 5x-s a lot lately and loving it--the splits and layers are easy to do, and the tones (brass, strings, EPS) are excellent. I'm still having trouble liking the piano sounds--so I sent a recording of the Px-5s side by side with a kurzweil artis se 88 to a sweetwater keyboard expert (stage setting 0,0 and 0,1).  He was able to hear what I've described as a bell-like, metallic sound, as have I. He said, it sounds like the keyboard is p[icking up the hammer striking the strings too hard, and if I could modify this issue, I could solve the problem.  I've tried changing every parameter but nothing seems to affect the tone at all. His description of the issue sounds right on. He said he would try and reach Mike Martin fro me but in the meantime does anyone have a suggestion how to affect this problem.........

[aron]

OK wait a minute. First off, you do know you can add more programs to the Kurzweil? You are not limited to the variations of electric piano sounds onboard. Just like you are not limited to the variations on the PX. In fact the PX doesn't have that many raw EP waveforms - most of the EP are variations of the internal samples like any other keyboard.

Yes, the splits and layers might be "more complicated" but that's because it does more.

Do you know that the Kurzweil strings/brass are used on broadway shows and are among the best in the business?

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2628866/Re_Which_Keyboard_on_Broadway_

 

The vibrato is an old trick with looping meant to hide the loop sample. It's easily added to any sound  - it's just a delayed LFO. 

That "expert" is totally wrong. They have been continually updating their samples - that's what the Kore64 was - additional samples. http://kurzweil.com/accessory/kore64/

 

Check out this thread which seems to echo what I have been saying:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/867156-workstation-best-orchestral-sounds.html

 

You are also missing the fact that there's a virtual tonewheel organ in there - a killer one - really essential for Rock and Roll.

 

[Rocknrolldentist]

Hey aron--It's funny that I'd be the one defending the casio. I do know that one can add downloads--my comentary was simply on what comes in the initial box. I don't really care what they use on broadway, either,--this is simply a matter of taste.
 Also, I'm not in the need for a virtual tonewheel organ, as I use a hammond sk-1 which is really killer! Thanks, as always, for your input though.

[aron]

I know, some people have varying tastes. That much is so obvious in this thread.

Did you contact Dave Weiser about your "bell tone" on the PX-5S? Maybe Casio will make a 6S and sample a different piano, or maybe allow different samples to be loaded into the new keyboard. Always possible.

[aron]

Try this to get rid of any "bell/hard hammer stike"

 

Edit->Tone-Filter->Velocity Sense -64

Edit->Tone-Filter->Cutoff anywhere from -21 to -25 <<--- adjust this

 

This will act as a lowpass filter and cut off the irritating highs you are hearing.

[Rocknrolldentist]

hey aron--I will try those suggestions. I did, in fact, email dave weiser, with no response so far.  I will try that again. Thanks again...I'll let you know how your suggestions work--any other ideas will be considered seriously!

[aron]

Yeah try it. Lowering the cutoff on the filter did indeed kind of remind me of the Kurzweil piano sound - not as bright - and none of the extreme high end. It might work for you.

[aron]

Did you try the modification?

[Rocknrolldentist]

Hi Aron-- tried your suggestions--they did get rid of the clangy sound but definitely at the expense of the clarity and brightness of the original tone. ie a but muffled.  i'd love to get in touch with dave weiser but i lost my contact info. Do you, per chance, know this?  thanks

[aron]

Here is Dave Weiser: http://www.weisersound.com

 

Interesting. So the test DID get rid of the "bell tone"? I looked and other than filtering the high end, there is no way to get rid of that on a normal tone.

Which means you need to go to a hex tone. What it will mean is that you will lose the upper velocity of the piano - so basically all you will have is the low to medium strike of the piano. Dave might be able to salvage the low to mid strike and then filter the top strike enough so that you hear "less" bell tone, but it will still be there.

When you adjusted the filter cutoff, was there any range that was OK? Maybe you could live with that for a while?

[aron]

OK try this stage setting. It filters out the high end but attempts to put some of it back with master EQ

 

[SonnyDaye]

On April 27, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Scott Hamlin said:

 

They're in the download section of this site. 

On April 28, 2016 at 10:30 PM, Scott Hamlin said:

The Way is a preset but if you've overwritten you can re-download from download area of this site. Modern grand is also a preset but it is a piano tone and not a stage setting (unless someone also made a SS from modern pno tone but I didn't see it).

 

I can't find either one in the Download section! Do you mean they are PART of an ALL file? Is there a way to download them SEPARATELY (not having to load the WHOLE all file)?

Thanks for any help locating them!

[aron]

OK here you go. I think it's just the modernGrnd sound but in any case:

 

[Rocknrolldentist]

The way can be found in the factory installed stage settings at 5-0---it is called 'just the way" and is a combination of modern grand tone and a pad.

[Rocknrolldentist]

Aron--the filter cut off sounded b est around -21 or so but still doesnt light my fire. Working with you has been, and continues to be, an enlightening experience. I take it that you now hear the objectionable tone I've been referring to. I will try and contact Dave--does he answer emails?

[aron]

No, I don't hear the bell tone you are talking about - but I am guessing it is the sound of the hammer hitting the strings which is completely natural at higher velocities.

So I just adjusted the piano to remove the sound of the hammer hitting the string as much as I could. 

I think the problem is that the piano (like all piano samples in keyboards) is close mic'ed. But when we play a piano, we are not listening close to the strings, we listen from afar. That's why none of these stage pianos sound like a real piano - like when you are sitting at one. To me, they sound exactly like a close mic'ed piano that's playing through speakers.

 

The only thing you can do is avoid that hammer strike sample (the higher velocity sample). But then you get a duller overall piano sound when playing hard.

Just like I cannot dial in an electric piano that I hear due to the onboard samples, I don't think you can dial in the piano you want - because it's not there.

I know Dave has answered my emails before. 

[SonnyDaye]

2 hours ago, aron said:

OK here you go. I think it's just the modernGrnd sound but in any case:

 

 

Thanks Aron! I appreciate it!

[aron]

I tried the more Mellow piano sound I posted. Although it is darker - it is not a bad sound - considering it's removing the hammer strike on the strings.

[XW-Addict]

On 21-3-2016 at 10:45 AM, stuarth25 said:

Before you write us oldies off, please all try this experiment to show what we mean.  Select a basic acoustic piano sound (the rock piano shows this best) and hit note G4 (in the centre of the keyboard) quite hard, then turn the pitch wheel down (if set to default) and hit G4 again, you will hear F4. Now hit G4 followed by hitting F4 and it should sound identical to when we used the pitch wheel and IT DOES. Next, follow the same routine, starting at F4.  You will hear Eb4 with the pitch wheel, so when you press Eb4, it should sound identical, but IT DOESN’T.  It has a different (brighter) tonal quality. This is the sound we talk of.

 

I followed this thread for a while now out of curiosity. My ears are not subtle enough in the way how piano's

are tuned or should be even on the sample level is not my forty. 

 

However out of curiosity I've done this experiment, I was quiet reluctant because it involves the pitch bend

and knowing there is lots going on in the px5s could turn quiet unfair. 

 

But I did and  partly half  way through C3 up to C5 some of the key's where moderate slightly off, the same

note but different texture. The same to some above C5 key's F to B similar but different texture.

The black key's  F# to Bb where then perfectly matched no difference in texture. Tried it out several times

over the expanse of the keyboard through soft and hard velocity same. 

 

It could be that it has to be the way how the key's are mapped for their tonality a sound signature or not,

Again I don't know exactly how this works for digital piano's  but I notice it less when I play,

But if there would be pieces played where the difference within tonality would be preferred it ends up

noticeable as an twang. Could be that the samples of the key note and bend note are different.   

[aron]

The real truth is this entire thread is as old as samplers. Think about it. Every note needs to be sampled and played back - in the PX-5S case they are obviously not since you can hear split points. OK, lets move on. Keys are played to record a piano note - now is there a robot playing the piano? I hope so because if you think about it, even a minute thing such as a key being pressed a little harder will cause the timbre to be brighter. For all we know, the note chosen for the sample note might actually be brighter on the real piano.

If you sat down on the real piano, you might even notice that one note rings out more than another due to sympathetic vibrations or the resonance of the piano.

The piano is imperfect, so the recording is imperfect. Add to the fact that you are not recording every note - so it's imperfect.

 

Now, add the fact that for some people they don't like the sound of the hammers hitting the strings -  it sounds "brassy" or "bell-like".  

To some people this is bothering them - but I would say the majority of people love the piano sound in the PX. You can't please everyone.

 

The samples are fixed in the unit. Casio likes the way it sounds or else they wouldn't have burned the sound in and released the keyboard. 

Every piano has a different sound. When you didn't like the sound of your piano, what did you do before?

 

There is only one real answer. Get a keyboard that sounds the way you want or get another that can load in multiple pianos until you find one that suits you.

Or live with the one you have and deal with it.

 

You/We purchased a killer keyboard at a breakthrough low price. The amazing thing about this keyboard are the concessions made to bring this incredible product out at this low price. Plastic, wall adapter, smaller sample ROM (to offset the high cost of memory), no sequencer, 4 parts instead of 16. Finally, it has one piano sample in there and it is not replaceable. Yes you can try and "alter" it, but you cannot replace the samples. You didn't pay for a keyboard that can replace the piano or other samples - you paid for the PX-5S. Many people find the piano in this keyboard pretty darn amazing - even if you ignore the price.