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Editing Tones PCM Melody - Accessing Sound Components?

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Hi,

Is it possible to access and edit component layers of a quasi-layered "Tone" or "PCM Melody"?

 

For example : Internal tone/sound P:320 NEW AGE   -  this is a layered sound comprised of a bell-like sound combined with a synth string-like pad.

How do you access the bell sound and string pad separately ? For example : Can I switch the bell sound with another sound choice to layer in with the existing Pad and vice versa?

 

Or, how would you create a multi-layered tone using existing tones?  I realize this can be done as a performance, but since this layering is used in factory tones, I'm curious as to how deep you can burrow into a factory tone.

 

Pressing the edit button while in Tone mode only seems to offer editing access to Attack, Release, Cutoff  and other effects  - not the actual ability to select different sounds for combing/editing  into a new layered Tone.

 

Once again, no luck with the manual :-((

 

Thanks kindly for any tips.

 

Cheers,

 

Gee Won

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It's not possible to edit individual wave elements of PCM tones in the XW-G1.

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The tone are fixed for the PCM it would be a very expensive keyboard if it could edit each tone oscillator like that tech wise. 

But on the good side there is an edit feature as you've found out but no absolute value editing capable for the tones I found

out thanks to BradMZ unless using the solo-synth and DSP in performance you can do some oscillator shaping. 

 

Check out the XW companion guide for oscillator shaping. or an example I've made long ago called "Raving Pundit" its what most of the ,

performance preset do also you can get some interesting sound textures.

 

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As Brad has said it's not possible to edit wave elements for PCM melody tones on the XW-G1. It's not possible on the XW-P1 either. However, if you had a P1 you could call up one of the two waves that make up the "New Age" tone (0470 or 0471 in the P1's Wave list) in a Hex Layer tone and layer it with any other wave accessible to the Hex Layer tone engine. On the G1 about the best that you can do is to find tones that sound similar to the waves you want to mix together and call those tones up into separate zones, which you can then layer as desired. 

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3 hours ago, AlenK said:

As Brad has said it's not possible to edit wave elements for PCM melody tones on the XW-G1. It's not possible on the XW-P1 either. However, if you had a P1 you could call up one of the two waves that make up the "New Age" tone (0470 or 0471 in the P1's Wave list) in a Hex Layer tone and layer it with any other wave accessible to the Hex Layer tone engine. On the G1 about the best that you can do is to find tones that sound similar to the waves you want to mix together and call those tones up into separate zones, which you can then layer as desired. 

AlenK but there is still that thing you can do with the solo-synth with shaping by silencing the amp and let the

filters do the work combined in performance mode layering and with editing existing tones attack ,

release time one can have the solo-synth shape  them in response to how you want you're layered

performance want to sound.  

 

In addition using controller in how and which part that uses #CC response with rate , resonance etc and

DSP can do much which only by experimenting  can be discovered how it works or not for you're sounds. 

As long not to much is demanded from the G1 you can trow some multi-key response in *(but that part is purely experimental)

 

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This is the G1 forum, so don't forget the G1's sampler. You can access all of the waves in the G1 via the PCM oscillators in the solo synth and record them into the sampler, thereby extracting PCM tone component waves for closer editing. You can even export these via the G1 data editor and edit them in an external wave editor such as Audacity.

 

The example PCM tone, P:320 NEW AGE, is comprised of waves 0332 New Age-A and 0333 New Age-B on the G1; 0332 is the bell tone and 0333 is the synth pad. You could sample both of these waves into two splits of a sampler tone, set an envelope to make the bell tone fade, set loop points to make the pad continuous, and you'd come pretty close to duplicating PCM tone 320. You could also, as requested in post #1, sample other waves in the splits. If you wanted to put the bell on a different pad, you could extract 0332 and a different pad wave for split 2, or just extract 0332 and layer it in a performance with your preferred PCM tone pad. The sampler engine gives the G1 infinite possibilities.

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I got the impression from an early review of the G1 by Craig Anderton (here) that it was quite difficult to construct multi-sampled tones. That's why I didn't suggest it.  

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The G1 can only sample one layer, it indeed can't access velocity switching as the P1 can do I've understood.

To make multi-sampling possible velocity switching would be nice but we will get back to P1 and G1 debacle. 

On the other G1 can put a sample on which ever key to trigger in a performance like a Gong on C4

if needed or a Howl on E# only not at a certain velocity the trick is using multi-key to switch between identical 

performances one with and one without the added samples. 

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20 hours ago, AlenK said:

I got the impression from an early review of the G1 by Craig Anderton (here) that it was quite difficult to construct multi-sampled tones. That's why I didn't suggest it.  

 

Craig Anderson's review does not really do justice to the sampling engine in the G1. I think it would be more apt to describe it as “quirky” rather than “difficult”, just like any of the other sound engines in the P1 or G1. And, as with all the XW sound engines, quirkiness rewards effort.

 

If “multi-sampled tones” means velocity switching, then, no, the G1 can't do that. The only velocity switching on the G1 is via TouchSense between tones at the Performance level. But each sample tone can be made up of up to five splits each containing an actual waveform (probably not single cycled). These can be mapped across the keyboard with the same flexibility as a Performance Zone. Split ranges can completely overlap for an overall sound coming from up to five waveforms, a form of multi-sampled tone. The example tone, P:320 NEW AGE, does not involve velocity switching. It's just two layered waveforms and it thus well within the scope of this method. Further, a different sample tone can be assigned to each of the four Performance Zones for a maximum of up to 20 simultaneously sounding waveforms.

 

Alternatively, splits can be arranged adjacently along the keyboard so that pitch shifting is kept to a minimum. This is especially useful when sampling acoustic instruments such as guitars and pianos, another form of multi-sampling, and is also very easy to set up.

 

The quirkiest thing I've had trouble working with is looping a waveform within a split. Casio provides no tools for this and it can come down to trial and error just listening and adjusting the loop points. Unless the shape of the waveform is carefully matched at the beginning and end of the loop points an audible pop or click will be heard. Even sine waves will click if there's a sudden phase shift. More sophisticated samplers would probably allow for things like cross fading. I've done this manually with some success, but often it results in chorusing during the cross fade. You really begin to appreciate the skill of the Casio engineers who produced the PCM tones when you try to do this stuff yourself. Overall, I've found carefully matching loop points at zero crossings in Audacity gives the best results.

 

The other thing missing in the sampler is any form of real time control over the engine. It's a great pity that none of the parameters have CC values so they can be assigned to the knobs. Split volumes and attack times would be great candidates for this type of real time control. I'm no so bothered about control over looping points because I think that would just generate clicks, but there are obviously more powerful samplers that overcome this problem.

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1 hour ago, BrettM said:

Alternatively, splits can be arranged adjacently along the keyboard so that pitch shifting is kept to a minimum. This is especially useful when sampling acoustic instruments such as guitars and pianos, another form of multi-sampling, and is also very easy to set up.

 

The quirkiest thing I've had trouble working with is looping a waveform within a split. Casio provides no tools for this and it can come down to trial and error just listening and adjusting the loop points. Unless the shape of the waveform is carefully matched at the beginning and end of the loop points an audible pop or click will be heard. Even sine waves will click if there's a sudden phase shift. More sophisticated samplers would probably allow for things like cross fading. I've done this manually with some success, but often it results in chorusing during the cross fade. You really begin to appreciate the skill of the Casio engineers who produced the PCM tones when you try to do this stuff yourself. Overall, I've found carefully matching loop points at zero crossings in Audacity gives the best results.

 

"Another form of multi-sampling" is in fact the standard meaning of multi-sampling and it's what Craig Anderton was referring to in his review. He also mentioned the difficulty of looping. Of course, you can assemble a multi-sample the way the G1 wants to see it, and with good loop points, in a third-party program like Audacity. It's just a shame that Casio didn't make this easy to do on the G1 itself. The MZ-X500, on the other hand, apparently does all of this well. So Casio learned its lesson (or rather, re-learned it - see below).

 

BTW, even the Korg DSS-1 from 1986 and Casio's own FZ-1 from 1987 handled multi-sampling and looping pretty well. The DSS-1 had an LCD even more limiting than that of the G1 (the FZ-1's LCD, OTOH, was pretty nice for its time.)

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The G1 has a sample loop construction tool on the keyboard itself.  Loop start and end points are adjustable in real time while listening so clicks can be tuned out. 

 

The MZ-X series was designed to load externally created tone files with sample data (tone expansion memory). There are no onboard tools for creating these tones. Casio provided the Sample Manager application for that.  The Sample Manager was designed to use WAV or AIFF files that already contain loop markers.  You'll need a third party app for that.   Note: Pad samples are independent of tone expansion memory. This does have onboard editing tools like start point editing and loop timing units.

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I consider the Sample Manager part of the "system" since it is provided free, like the Data Editor for the P1 and G1. Good points you make that it does not allow loop editing and that the loop points must either be in the samples already or added by a third-party program. So, the MZ-X500 "system" (MZ-X500 plus Sample Manager) is not as complete as I assumed it was. Strange that Casio would not at least support something it used to do on a product it made over thirty years ago! 

 

IMO additional tools than just audible feedback should have been provided on the G1 (or using an external Casio program) for sample-loop construction. For example, a tool to locate zero crossings. A tool to cross-fade across the loop point to smooth out transitions in cases where you just can't get it smooth any other way.  Both are provided on the Korg DSS-1 and the latter is provided on the Casio FZ-1. 

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3 hours ago, BrettM said:

The only velocity switching on the G1 is via TouchSense between tones at the Performance level.

 

Can you expand on this capability? I don't have a G1 and can only review the User's Guide. I couldn't find any mention of velocity control in the Performance mode but I wouldn't be surprised if the manual is in error. I did find mention of some velocity control associated with the multi-function keys. Or are you talking about the velocity switching built-in to (many) PCM melody tones? That's unfortunately not controllable by the user. Fortunately for P1 owners, Hex Layer does allow control of that. 

 

In any case, we've explored all we can with respect to the OP's original question. He can achieve his goal if he (assumption) is willing to spend some time (a LOT of time I suspect, actually) using a third party program like Audacity to construct a custom multi-sample that the G1 can understand (it doesn't understand the normal multi-sample format). Good luck and Godspeed! 

 

 

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Sorry Allen, I didn't mean to be cryptic. All I was referring to is fading between Zones in a Performance by using TouchSense, as you have thoroughly described in your XW-P1 Companion Rev 4: Section 6.3.2. Velocity Crossfading of Layers. I probably should have called it velocity cross-fading instead of velocity switching.

 

Using a third party tool as a sample manager does not take all that much time, and it's well worth the effort.

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Yesterday I was at work reading this thread. I took a deep breath snapped a pointing finger ,

and though by myself yup that is keyboard tech talk the way I like it bout this forum and went 

back to work contend with a good feeling :D. 

 

Should thank Geewon for this :)). 

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