Using MIDI and suggested DAW software for beginners

[Technoladd]

Hi,

 

I have just connected up my daughters CTK-3500 to a Windows 10 PC to record and edit music.

 

We downloaded Audacity and then realised it only had limited MIDI functionality and the only way to capture keyboard out was through aux/phono cables with cable splitters for headphones.

 

We looked  at some DAW software and discovered it was expensive and complex for a 12 year old to use. Has anyone got any suggests on free/cheap software to record and edit music. We downloaded a free copy of pro tools that came with a device, but had problems whilst  installing  and recognising our keyboard,

 

Any ideas for simple cheap software solution to record and edit keyboard output would be appreciated

 

thanks

 

Shaun

[Jokeyman123]

Audacity has no midi capability-it is used to record audio-sound coming out of the CTK's headphone jack. Notice Audacity's inputs are set up for a microphone or if your computer has it-A 1/8" stereo miniplug which I use for recording audio out then Audacity saves it as a Windows format "wav" file, or in many other types of file formats, that are all played through your computer's soundcard as sound, not midi data. A true "DAW" is complicated because it is designed to record audio, and in separate tracks, midi data. The 2 types of data are not the same and this is why this type of software is complicated. If you wish to record just the audio from the CTK-the same sounds you hear from the speakers or with headphones, Audacity is pretty good for a freeware Windows audio recorder but does not record midi data.

 

Now if you wish to record midi data Jazz-4.1.3-Installer.exewhich I think is what you want to do-you will need to connect the CTK's USB port with a standard USB computer cable-same cable as a USB printer cable with a rectangular connection on one end and a squarish connector on the other-to your computer's USB port. This connection will not record audio out from the CTK, only midi data. There are many simpler midi software programs for Windows OS that will record only your midi data as you play connected to the computer, and save that recorded data as .mid or smf file. Unfortunately-all of these, even the simplest (maybe someone else here knows a simpler program) you need to know your way around the software to start recording the simplest midi composition. I have attached 2 I use which are the simplest I know.....see below attachments, both are installers for Windows OS-from XP to 10, these should work. Jazzware-looks crude, but it works and is the simplest I've come across.  Midi Editor looks nicer, but is still a bit "deep", much simpler than many others.

 

Now if you wish to have a true "DAW"-a software program that will record both audio tracks and midi data tracks-the best free program but definitely more complicated since it has to work with both types of music data-is Anvil Studio. Again, not the simplest program but can record and play midi data or audio or both. Alot simpler than most.

 

I wish I knew an even simpler midi sequencer/recorder software program but I haven't come across any and I've looked. Most of the programs, even the so-called "free" programs are only trial (not fully working) versions of their pro software midi/audio recorders, such as protools which is really designed for a pro recording studio environment, and you need the software "chops" to work with it well.  Some musicians like FL Studio, Ableton or Cockos Reaper-all are true "DAWs",  all are pretty complex depending on your experience and all are not really "free" but are trialware-you will run into that alot-a program that seems free but will have some string attached-limited features, will time out after a few minutes, or will bump up ads to buy the "pro" version.

 

All this lives in the Windows world. If you are in the Apple world and are equipped with iPads or iphones, there are I believe simpler ways ways to record midi or audio with the proper connectors-still a little daunting others here can fill you in with that if you need. Garageband is the easiest in that world. There are some brave souls who run "emulators"-that make a windows computer work like an apple, and then run Garageband on that-but all that is alot of trouble just to run a midi recorder, IMO. There is no Garageband for Windows. Hope I helped.

 

 

MidiEditor_2_5_0_Install.exe

[craZivn]

You may want to look into a program called Ardour. It's free, supported by donations only and has MIDI capability although I can't speak to the ease of use for MIDI since I only use it for basic editing of multitrack recordings. It's become my go-to DAW, I use it on Ubuntu but I'm almost positive there's a Windows version as well.

 

Ivan

[Frenq]

Look at Reaper DAW https://www.reaper.fm

[Chas]

Technoladd,

 

There isn't much available that covers your needs that is also simple and free. By the very nature of what they need to do, DAW's are complicated beasts and can be quite daunting for those with no experience of digital recording software.

 

Some things to bear in mind first. Most MIDI keyboards with USB connectors output only MIDI data via USB. To record actual audio, you will need to take the audio line out from the keyboard and connect it to your computer's audio line in. If your Win 10 machine is a standard home computer, you may be limited to a simple "mic in" socket as a line in. That's when stand alone audio interfaces come in to play, and these normally do connect to your computer via USB. Sound interfaces take over all sound handling duties from your computer's onboard audio controller, and they normally give you multiple inputs and outputs to handle connectors such as 1/4" jacks, XLR and RCA (depending on the interface). Some also give you traditional 5 pin DIN sockets for use with older MIDI instruments. Therefore, to record audio AND MIDI, you will need to connect your CTK to your computer/ sound interface with both a USB cable and audio cables.

 

With regards to the actual DAW, there are a lot out there. The most well known are Cubase, Logic Pro (Apple), Fruity Loops, Pro Tools, Ableton Live, Garage Band (Apple only) etc. Then you have lesser known alternatives such as Mixcraft, Reaper, Harrison Mixbus, Ardour etc. Fundamentally most DAWs operate on much the same principles in use and use industry standard VST plug ins, so it doesn't matter too much which you choose. It should be one that fits your needs and your budget, and has good support. Oh, and some DAWs are Apple only, so if you have Win 10 choose a Windows based DAW. If you are just starting out, try one of the lesser known DAWs to get a feel for it. Reaper is a very good DAW as it can be used indefinitely without paying upfront, though the developers do rely on those that do like and use it to pay a very reasonable fee for it. The lite version of Harrison Mixbus can often be had on special offer, as low as $39 IIRC. Mixcraft (Pro version) is the DAW I use and though it costs a little more than the other less known DAWs at $149  (the lighter Recording Studio version is $75) , the amount of features, VSTs, plug ins and extras that comes bundled with Mixcraft makes it incredible value for money. I also find it very easy to use and to get good results from.

 

My suggestion would be to check your computer's audio in capabilities first. If it's a mono mini jack line in, you may want to consider a sound interface device that can cope with more connections and offer more connection types. The Behringer U-Phoria range sound great,  are very well built and are also superb value for money.  I use the UMC 404HD version and its given me stellar service.

 

 https://www.behringer.com/Categories/Behringer/Computer-Audio/Interfaces/UM2/p/P0AVV#googtrans(en|en) 

 

With your audio interface taken care of, you will need a DAW. I would recommend starting out with Reaper because you are able to try it for free, plus it's an excellent DAW that can handle everything you need it to do. It's well designed and relatively easy to use as well.

 

https://www.reaper.fm/

 

With regards to learning to use it, there are plenty of YouTube guide videos that can help as well as plenty of online guides just a Google search away.

 

Good luck, and hope you get recording some great tracks soon!

 

 

[craZivn]

Another option would be to buy a hardware recorder that records to SD card, use that to record the music and then drop it into a DAW afterward for editing. You can't do MIDI that way but it's simpler and less frustrating (in my opinion) than using the DAW to record. The workflow is different to be sure, but the hardware is dead simple and I can concentrate on playing music instead of overworking my eight brain cells trying to troubleshoot interface issues.
I use a Tascam DR-07 for live stuff and a Zoom L-12 for multitrack recording, but you can get a decent recorder that'll do the job for about 40 bucks. Just make sure it has a line in jack, and can record in at least 16-bit WAV format.

 

Just another option to consider.

 

Ivan

[WJBIII]

The Bandlab Cakewalk release was opened to public domain by Gibson.  I'm not extremely experienced but it's been doing great work in post-production with my Tascam DP-24SD tracks.

Also: I pretty easily achieved a connection with my XW-P1 to the Win7 Cakewalk installation and was recording MIDI right away.  Shaun's original post specifies a "simple cheap software solution," and I'd point out that this is sort-of in the middle: it's free full-function, but -- being a real capable DAW -- I might not exactly call it "simple".  I don't think it's out-of-range with anything else available, however, when it comes to difficulty.  Like anything else, it can be learned, and I'm real happy to have it.

https://www.bandlab.com/products/cakewalk

[Jokeyman123]

I had downloaded and tried Bandlab and opted out for some reason although I liked the way it was designed-I think you have to be online to use certain features? I also have the original Cakewalk which is very good but a little tricky for a beginner to install since it was originally on floppies (!) and I had to use disk images on my hard drive, although very easy to use, much less complex than its newest versions, and was hard to find in 2019!

[jenny]

Jokeyman123

 

Wath do you think about DAW Mixcraft?

 

 

[Jokeyman123]

I am not familiar with it. I will take a look and let you know. Here is a comprehensive review from "SoundonSound" which I go to for many things musical. Looks pretty deep for a beginner-up there with Protools first impression. It does cost, which the original poster did not care too much for.

 

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/acoustica-mixcraft-8

[Chas]

8 hours ago, jenny said:

Jokeyman123

 

Wath do you think about DAW Mixcraft?

 

 

 

I actually have and use Mixcraft Pro 8 (I bought the upgrade to 9, but haven't installed it yet).

 

It's a great DAW and excellent value for money when you see what it offers. It IS a fully fledged DAW though, and can seem daunting to the uninitiated. Saying that, it's no more daunting than any other DAW.

 

It you are starting out and want to see if working within a DAW is for you, I'd recommend trying REAPER. You can try it out with no obligation to buy if you don't like it. If you are sure you want to go the DAW route, then Mixcraft offer a free 14 day trial version. I like Mixcraft very much and recommend it, the only criticism I have is that they don't offer a Linux version (I'd like to migrate fully to a Linux setup, and Mixcraft is the only Windows only software that I now use).

[jenny]

Jokeyman123

Chas

Thanks for answers.

I was interested because I cannot make friends Sonar with CTK 7200 . Sometimes the sound of USB connection disappears.

Perhaps I still can not correctly configure the connection channels.
I'm just starting to try with DAW.

Therefore, I look towards another DAW program.

I am wondering if all the possibilities are in this program, those that are in Sonar, Cubase.

 

[Jokeyman123]

I 2nd using Reaper-it is also pretty "deep" but all the features are avaialble even in the trial version, I use it alot too. If you are having trouble with Sonar, I don't think these others might solve that problem. I would try to learn a few things on one of the simpler DAWs first-to fully understand how to set up your midi connections with the software-usually listed as "preferences", "options" or some other file tab on top of the software window.  Look at the "midieditor" program I attached above-it looks simple but does alot-and uses pretty standard ways to set up a USB midi connection to a keyboard. Anvil Studio is good too, but even that is a little tricky to work with if you haven't much experience with music software.

[Chas]

@jenny

 

As Jokeyman says, changing to another DAW won't necessarily solve an issue(s) if the problems lie within the actual settings/ preferences of the DAW. You need to ensure that your DAW is set up correctly to use the sound interface that you have (or if you are using your computer's onboard sound). You also need to ensure that when you are working on a project within a DAW, that you have the MIDI set up correctly for the device you wish to use. These can be both in the main preferences as well as within an individual track settings.

 

All DAW's work in much the same way, the workflow principles are all pretty similar. What Sonar and Cubase can do will almost be certainly possible in Mixcraft and Reaper. You are likely to experience similar issues moving to another DAW if the problem is within the setup/ preferences part of the DAW. The differences between the expensive and more affordable DAWs is normally down to which are more industry recognised and have strong support, and those that aren't as well known. Saying that, all DAWs have online forums that you can join and find the answers to a query from a very active community of users. Both Mixcraft and Reaper have excellent online forums that can offer help specific to those particular DAWs. Generally the lesser known DAWs also tend to offer more features/ more bundled VSTs for the money and are generally better value for the home user. And just like an instrument, an expensive DAW doesn't automatically give you better results. It's still down to the user to use it in such a way to get the best out of it. The most expensive DAW will not give good results if the user doesn't known how to operate it properly.

 

A good example of what I mentioned above is what I did recently, which was to write a track and deliberately limiting myself to a very entry level keyboard and a limited free (semi) DAW program called Audacity. I wanted to see if it was possible to write, record and mix a good sounding track with such limited resources. I was quite surprised by how good the results were, though admittedly it took a lot of work to get it arranged and mixed to a standard I was happy with. It would have been much, much easier had I used full featured DAW and a higher level keyboard with MIDI. If you're interested, you can hear the track via this thread:
 

 

With regards to your current dilemma, see if you can look into you Sonar settings/ preferences and ensure that everything is set as it should be (sound interface, MIDI etc.)

 

If you still want to try with another DAW anyway, you can download and use Reaper for an indefinite evaluation period, or Mixcraft for a 14 day trial. 

Reaper: https://www.reaper.fm/

 

Mixcraft: https://acoustica.com/mixcraft/download

 

Also Google search and/ or search YouTube for guides on using Sonar and setting it up. See if you can find a forum for them also where you will find specific knowledge from people who use it.

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

 

20 hours ago, jenny said:

Jokeyman123

Chas

Thanks for answers.

I was interested because I cannot make friends Sonar with CTK 7200 . Sometimes the sound of USB connection disappears.

Perhaps I still can not correctly configure the connection channels.
I'm just starting to try with DAW.

Therefore, I look towards another DAW program.

I am wondering if all the possibilities are in this program, those that are in Sonar, Cubase.

 

 

13 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

I 2nd using Reaper-it is also pretty "deep" but all the features are avaialble even in the trial version, I use it alot too. If you are having trouble with Sonar, I don't think these others might solve that problem. I would try to learn a few things on one of the simpler DAWs first-to fully understand how to set up your midi connections with the software-usually listed as "preferences", "options" or some other file tab on top of the software window.  Look at the "midieditor" program I attached above-it looks simple but does alot-and uses pretty standard ways to set up a USB midi connection to a keyboard. Anvil Studio is good too, but even that is a little tricky to work with if you haven't much experience with music software.

[jenny]

Jokeyman123 and Chas

 

Many thanks for the explanation and help in defining the program.
I will be try a trial versions.
I appreciate your answer.
Best regards.

[r_1159]

Hello everyone 

I have started using DAW instead of multi track recording on my ctx3000 and wish to learn how to record multi track songs on DAW. I started with reaper but switched to cakewalk I have few issued and appreciate if you can help me with solutions.

1- I adjust the accompaniment out on my ctx3000 and seems that cakewalk detects those elements on channels 9 to 13.  I have adjusted channel 1 for recording right hand and used String to record this track. However every time the keyboard is turned off and on the sound of this track changes to piano. How do i fix an instrument on DAT for a channel so that the play back on keyboard sound the same ? 

2- The drums sound strange in playback and do not match recorded rhythm on my keyboard

3- The bass instrument changes to piano in playback

4- I recorded a track using piano sound on my keyboard but the piano sound changes in playback when i change my keyboard sound.

 

 

 

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[IanB]

Reading this thread I wonder if there's an opening in the "app" space for a simpler MIDI/audio app aimed at young people with a very straightforward interface for young beginners. Thinking about it, it seems part of the issue is that MIDI is a very "raw" standard which forces users to understand how it works at the message level, which is pretty daunting at first. SysEx and NRPNs etc are not too easy to understand for beginners...

[Jokeyman123]

Trouble is-many early computer musicians were wearing 2 hats-and some were conversant/comfortable with computer language and terminology, and used music as a fun way to develop some of these concepts and early software. And there was almost always a huge divide in the industry between computer development, and musical instrument technology-computer tech always seemed to be ahead of music hardware-and now decades later-all this has evolved to what was already a pretty complex field if you were not familiar with computer technology-most musicians from my generation were already performing, composing without computers and had to learn this technology after the fact-after it was developed.  And unfortunately-all this language was already in place and was now incorporated in much music hardware/software-so younger or newer users in this field are faced with this level of 'evolved' complexity-even as an experienced player/computer geek I found recently the evolved complexity was getting more in the way of my creative process-which often must follow my intuition and snap decision ideas which the complexity can stop dead in my tracks, so I have reverted back to simpler-and often older technologies as more expedient to what I wish to accomplish. As far as hardware and software development-it is apparently not expedient for software developers to 'reverse engineer" their routines and program development to re-design simpler, more accessible software/hardware solutions to creating music. When my brother's bands released several CD's all recorded in a pro studio environment with "Protools", I honestly could not hear much of a difference, ultimately with what might have been done with no computer technology at all. It was obviously quite a different environment for the engineer involved (one) but I think the more abstract the process from playing live to rendering in a software environment-the best recordings years back, were often done with one take-onE set of mics in one acoustic space! Listen to the Gil Evans/Miles Davis production values and sound-and realize how this was recorded. I was listening again to my "Giant Steps" album by Coltrane-not remastered, the original record-it was scary, these guys sounded like they were in my house playing live! So I agree-if software developers (not me) would see this concept of simpler is better, and start coming up with apps that don't need a detailed understanding of computer language and code-sysex or otherwise-i think this is a trend that needs to be looked at, why Garageband must be so popular. The underlying codes will always have to exist-but you don't have to be a mechanical engineer to know how to start your car or drive it around! if it had been desgned by Microsoft however..........😆

[IanB]

@Jokeyman123Well, one obvious advantage to me is that modern technology makes recording accessible. In the past, amateurs could not make professional recordings at all; I remember as a youngster recording the various bedroom bands I was involved in with cassette recorders, which doesn't make great sound quality. Then came the 4 track- a major step forward- but then a decade later I remember the sheer power of having Cubase VST running on my Pentium II system. Effectively unlimited tracks and effects became possible in the digital environment for a price that had been unimaginable in the analogue days of requiring very expensive tape recorders and hardware outboard gear for effects. So for me, modernity is a massive improvement on the old days in that regard.

 

But it is complicated, and as I said in my post, MIDI doesn't help by having a whole jargon and complexity of its own. Plus, ignoring MIDI, routing and recording of audio sources on PC can get unnecessarily complex; I honestly think Windows has got far worse in this regard than at the turn of the century. The options are all over the place, very unergonomic. The Windows 98 audio mixer was far better than what replaced it- so I've heard, it was deliberately to make life harder for people to copy copyrighted material, as if that was going to stop those committed to doing so!

 

As you know, I sometimes write a bit of software and I've now got this "how to make MIDI simpler on Windows" thing running at the back of my head, but it hasn't come up with any good answers yet! I'm vaguely thinking something along the lines of this (imaginary) app detecting that a MIDI device is (say) a Casio or similar keyboard and automatically setting itself up to record MIDI from and play MIDI to that keyboard, but even then there are issues with things like Local On/Off to contend with. But some kind of built in library of configurations for particular models of keyboard (that the community can write additional configurations for) might be a way forward. So there's a specific config for a CTK-3500 or whatever.

[Jokeyman123]

The so-called MIDI 2 spec (I think that's what its called) has as one of its features-protocol to do just what you suggest-that specific instruments will auto-configure to other keyboard or software based upon model and of course, will have to have the midi 2 spec incorporated into their hardware-so won't help older equipment overly. So there will (supposedly) be less fuss about for example-configuring a kurzweil workstation with drawbars vs. a Casio, Roland or other brandm and even auto-detecting what exact midi capabilities a piece of equipment will have, and configuring itself to use those features automatically. I'm guessing it will be written to send and receive sysex messages without user input needed, as well as detecting channel messages, maybe a new universal system for the various designs each manufacturer uses for setting up its tones, programs, multis whatever the company is calling the different levels of tone capabilities-so that if i were to call up say a distinctive sawtooth patch on one keyboard-it will call up that same or similar patch on another keyboard that uses an entirely different system of banks and categories, instead of calling up something entirely different. or if I have a multi programmed with a layer of strings, brass and maybe a third or fourth instrument-it would auto-configure another instrument-to create a similar multi-and even detect ifthe other keyboard can. Would save alot of time for layering several different keyboards or modules-sort of an extended universal GM standard-but for all program and bank changes-a daunting task.