Using MIDI with ACT DSPs, plus how many parts multi-timbral?

[Chas]

This has kind of got me stumped while using my DAW, and recording/ sending MIDI to and from the S1000V. 

 

I can record a MIDI track from my S1000V no problem. However, I want to play this MIDI track from my DAW back into the S1000V and have it play a Tone with ACT DSPs applied to it. I can't for the life work out how to do this, as whatever I try just plays back the Tone without any ACT DSPs applied. Is it not possible for the S1000V to receive and play MIDI and also use its ACT DSPs? I've looked at Page 353 of the User Guide and can't find anything relating to ACT DSPs or Registrations in the Control Change section, nor can I find anything specific in the MIDI Implementation Guide.

 

Also, is there anyway I can just have the S1000V independently set up with a Registration or selected TONE, and then have it receive and play just MIDI notes from a DAW without any Control or Program changes occurring? i.e. Whatever Tone is currently selected on the S1000V itself, if I send MIDI note data to it from my DAW it will play that same Tone and not change it to something else?

 

Also, the specifications state that the S1000V is multi-timbral with 64 notes of polyphony, but it doesn't state how many parts multi-timbral it is. I'm assuming it's multi-timbral as in 2 x Upper Layers, 1 x Lower layer and 1 x Rhythm (Drum)?

 

It's a fun keyboard without a doubt, but damn it is quirky!

[Brad Saucier]

MIDI input on most current models has it's own 16 part sound engine, this includes the CT-S series.  MIDI IN is not connected to the local sound engine.  Anything received will not affect locally controlled sounds.  As far as DSP, I don't know if the MIDI section is capable of using DSP.  I'll try to check with mine later and report back.   

 

Edit: I checked.  As suspected, the MIDI section does not have access to DSP.  It appears DSP is reserved for locally controlled sounds.  

[Lechdude]

Hi Chas/Brad,

 

Thanks to Chas for the excellent youtube reviews which have been really useful whilst I make my mind up about whether to get one of these keyboards and thanks to Brad for answering this question.

 

It does seem like quite an odd omission to nerf this keyboard like this (I.e. remove a feature that is otherwise present in a given use scenario). I wonder if it is capable of being fixed by a firmware update if there was the will to do so? Maybe the fact that the midi engine is 16 part, whereas the "live engine" is 4 part (?) Would preclude this. Maybe the thinking is that most people would just use vsts and vstis if using a DAW?

 

In any case from the research I have done indicates that the system effects of reverb, delay and chorus are accessible by midi so at least you would have access to some fx which I thought would be worth mentioning (although I cant confirm this for sure as I am still window shopping lol).

 

Best,

 

 

Lechefdude 

[Lechdude]

Also not quite sure why my username came up as Lechdude rather than Lechefdude... Hopefully people will connect to leche (as in milk) rather than other similar sounding words (although milk dude is also a bit weird...)

 

Ah well, no way to change it now...

 

Best,

 

Lechefude

[Brad Saucier]

The CT-S1000V and S500 are 48 part multi-timbral, although not all parts utilized.  The details can be found in the MIDI implementation manual here..   

[Chas]

On 6/14/2022 at 4:15 PM, Lechdude said:

Hi Chas/Brad,

 

Thanks to Chas for the excellent youtube reviews which have been really useful whilst I make my mind up about whether to get one of these keyboards and thanks to Brad for answering this question.

 

It does seem like quite an odd omission to nerf this keyboard like this (I.e. remove a feature that is otherwise present in a given use scenario). I wonder if it is capable of being fixed by a firmware update if there was the will to do so? Maybe the fact that the midi engine is 16 part, whereas the "live engine" is 4 part (?) Would preclude this. Maybe the thinking is that most people would just use vsts and vstis if using a DAW?

 

In any case from the research I have done indicates that the system effects of reverb, delay and chorus are accessible by midi so at least you would have access to some fx which I thought would be worth mentioning (although I cant confirm this for sure as I am still window shopping lol).

 

Best,

 

 

Lechefdude 

 

Lechefdude,

 

Many thanks for your question both here and also on my YouTube "Vocal Synthesis" video, and also for bringing this MIDI restriction issue to my attention. I've made it very clear in my already published episodes that I love this quirky and unusual keyboard and was happy to accept its quirks and idiosyncrasies, though finding out about this MIDI restriction I admit surprised me. Especially after exploring the use of DSPs and layering to create some epic tones only to now find that they cannot be triggered over MIDI.  It seems a very strange feature omission, and I'm not sure how/ why this would get signed off by the R&D and design departments at Casio. Obviously it won't affect owners who play everything live from the keyboard, but for electronic/ EDM music and DAW based MIDI artists, this is going to be quite off putting.  We can but hope for a major firmware update to address this. 

And yes you are correct, the System Effects are available and controllable over MIDI, and also the Vocal Synthesis (very thankfully).

As mentioned in my YouTube reply, it's still a great keyboard even with this MIDI restriction, but I strongly believe that it would appeal to a greater user base if the MIDI implementation was improved so that the S1000V can utilise its DSPs and Layering over MIDI as well.

[Lechdude]

Hi Chas,

 

Thanks for coming back to me, I am very much looking forward to the next part of the review!

 

I agree with what you have said above that this does seem like a strange omission,  but I wonder if this is something that applies to "home arranger" type keyboards generally (rather than "synths"). From the manual the yamaha psr-e473 also seems to prevent using one of its DSPs when triggering via midi (although this is not particularly clear from the manual so I could be wrong).

 

Maybe this is a compromise that needs to be made to keep the home boards easy to use or maintain GM compatibility or something,  but the reason for nerfing in this way is not obvious,  especially in the case of Casio because it does not even make sense from a commercial point of view (i.e. to avoid canabalising sales of other "pro" products) as I dont think Casio actively marketing "synths" at the moment, unlike Yamaha.

 

The classic response is of course to buy the board that most suits your needs, and if one board does not meet those needs dont buy it, but that is of course quite frustrating when there is nothing on the market that meets those needs.

 

In my case i dont have room for more than one keyboard, and want something fun that I can use to make music with my kids as well as using to make my own self indulgent stuff on a DAW. At the moment I use a Roland Go.keys which the kids have found really fun, and works fine to enter notes etc on the DAW, but is missing the knobs and extra control functions I used to have on my previous synth. Hence me giving close attention to the cts1000v which looks like a massive step up in this respect.

 

There are to be fair workarounds,  like recording the audio of the midi sequences and then applying VST effects, but if you do that you may as well just use VSTI's which kind of defeats the purpose of this cool keyboard that make these "produced" sounds in the box.

 

On the other hand the cts500/cts1000v as well as the aforementioned Yamaha all give that crucial simple family fun bit that is lacking from synths I am considering (ie korg kross 2) AND would still give me access to knobs etc which I currently lack AND have cool sounds on board (unlike a straight ahead midi only controller) so for me looks like a good fit.

 

Nevertheless,  it seems frustrating that something that is otherwise so complete should be missing features from certain obvious use cases that are something that the keyboard can otherwise do with aplomb!

 

Apologies to all for long screed, but I wanted to set out where I was coming from.

 

Best,

 

 

Lechefude

[Chas]

@Lechdude - I agree with all that you said. There may be reasons for this nerfing of some features, though I can't for the life of me fathom what they are. I do understand that with so many sections and features in the S1000V some compromises have to be made. BUT, with the Tones and DSPs being some of the major selling points of this keyboard, why on earth cripple them when using MIDI? If a "pure" synth had done this it would be absolutely roasted and rightly so.

 

There are of course workarounds and it can still be used with a DAW, but it will lose interest from the more synth type players who don't want to faff around with MIDI limitations. It is a shame as otherwise the S1000V is so close to being an all time classic with a wide appeal, but this feature omission knocks it down a place or two.  As I've mentioned numerous times, it's still a great keyboard and good value for what it offers, but if only that last 10% of its features had been addressed...

Anyhow, part 7 of my review is now up where I cover the use of MIDI along with the limitations! 

[Frenetos]

Many thanks to the three parts involved in this conversation.

As a 500 owner, I just want to say I am also extremely surprised on reading this.
Kind of thought that this kind of keyboards (MIDI capable) always could also be used as a sound bank. Took it as a given. Triggering the keyboard sounds (with all their possibilities and straightforward) from external sources seems to me to be a very very very basic feature.

Please CASIO, go ahead and, if possible, try to fix this in the firmware.
That will definitely put this model 10% higher, as Chas says.