flbo Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 First the observed phenomena: When I tried all the sounds I came across sax and flute ... which sounded quite disappointing (far away). However I knew from some online material that there is a better reed sound for the PX-560 ... but how? Then, one day I had it: The sax suddenly sounded great ... immediately had to play the Pink Panther with it ... phantastic. Next day the great sound was gone ... and no way to fix it. What happened? Meanwhile I know how to fix the broken reed sounds: 1. Select the sound in Upper 1 (only there it works) 2. Edit -> Effect -> DSP -> select "Early Reflection" Attached an example of sax as it plays per default and with the enhancement above (difference may be hard to hear on the PC - use headphones - big difference on the PX-560). Being happy that this problem is solved still some questions where the experts may be able to explain: 1. Why does Early Reflection change so much? The effect description has not much to do with the effect on the sound ... 2. This is a MUCH better sound for all reed instruments - how can I make this the default? 3. Changing Early Reflection in the Effects -> Reverb does not achieve the same results ... why not? 4. What if the reed instrument cannot go in Upper 1 (e.g. playing in split mode one may need brass in Lower 1 ...)? 5. Is there a way to get this resolved by using Hex Layers? (side comment: flute 2 seems not to use the DSP according to the manual appendix ... still it requires the trick above) SAX_STD.WAV SAX_EARF.WAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Saucier Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 Early reflection is basically a very short and fast reverb effect. It simulates acoustic reflections in smaller spaces than the system reverb, like a piano cabinet or wood box. Apparently you like sounds with some acoustic space around them rather than close and dry. System delay and reverb can both be edited to perform a similar small space effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flbo Posted December 27, 2017 Author Share Posted December 27, 2017 Well, not really. At least on my PX-650 the sound is much more dry and close WITH Early Reflection than without ... per default all reed instruments sound really very far away, quite silent and one can hardly hear the typical frictional reed sound. And I have played with system delay and reverb - changes a little but far away from what Early Reflection does. Can you recommend a parameter setting that achieves the same effect? Whoever reads this ... can you try out reed instruments (e.g. sax) with and without Early Reflection to see if you have the same problem? Would be interesting to read your experience. Either my PX-560 has a problem or this was introducted since the firmware update to V1.14. Another problem with Early Reflection: I noticed it is not stored correctly in registration. Everything else is memorized correctly, but the Early Reflection configuration is lost. Is this "normal" or a bug of my PX-560? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Saucier Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Tones control the DSP settings, not registrations. You have to edit the tone, then save it as a user tone to save the DSP settings that tone should use. Can you post a short audio demo of your sound in question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flbo Posted December 27, 2017 Author Share Posted December 27, 2017 Now it´s definite - my PX-560 is broken. Have to return it. Very strange, though: The effect described above is fully reproducible and affects reed instruments but not pianos (?)... but: Only with headphones plugged (???). Regardless which headphones I use (the same effect for three different ones). When enabling Early Reflection it disappears (????????). And: It is not present in the recorded audio ... When I unplug the headphones sometimes speakers don´t turn on (???) ... but sometimes the sound comes loud and clear including the reed instruments ... no need to "fix" this with Early Reflection. Slightly moving and twisting the headphone plug temporarily changes the sound on the headphones as well ... loud and clear then ... so my PX-560 has a slack joint. In any case the fault is not in the configuration, even though Early Reflection is a (strange) workaround the problem must be somehow related to the headphone plug. Will return the keyboard and ask for a replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Saucier Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 It does sound like something is wrong. An exchange is a good idea. Sorry about your trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4bar Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I’m having the same problem with my brand-new PX560. It’s not just the reed sounds, it’s pretty much everything I’ve tried other than the main piano sounds. Through the speakers everything sounds great, but through the headphones everything is very distant, awash in reverb. At first I thought there was no direct sound at all, but with some experimentation it seems the direct sound is there, but a very low level compared with the reverb return. Your workaround works for me as well: in Edit > Effect > DSP > Algorithm change from Through to Early Reflection (a few other options there work as well). i was hoping this might be a bug in the firmware, but it sounds like you’re already at 1.14? (My instrument is still 1.12.) Before I try to ship back for an exchange, I’m wondering if anyone else can reproduce this problem. Are there any Casio reps who listen in on these forums? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Saucier Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 What is the headphone type and model? Are you sure the phones are fully inserted? Can you post a pic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flbo Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 Usually I am using Teufel Mute (e.g. https://www.kopfhoerer.de/test/teufel-mute) ... and I have tried it with four other different (fully functional) headphones - the same effect for all. And no, it is not the plug not inserted fully - see picture attached. Regarding 4bar´s question: My firmware version is 1.14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4bar Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I've only tried my one set of headphones (which are LSTN Troubadour). I'll gladly try again with a pair of earbuds or something when I get home, but I'd be very surprised if it's some kind of hardware problem or incompatibility related to the specific headphones. The piano sounds, which use a different DSP algorithm mode, don't demonstrate the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Saucier Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 flbo, Did you end up exchanging the keyboard? That's what I would do. What you describe is not normal. These are the only 2 reports of this I've seen out of the groups of owners on Facebook and this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flbo Posted January 6, 2018 Author Share Posted January 6, 2018 Brad, haven´t exchanged the keyboard, yet ... still waiting for the delivery. In any case can confirm 4bars´ statement that this can hardly be a hardware compatibility problem as this could not be solved by changing the Early Reflection parameter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4bar Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 OK wow, I stand corrected, in my case it was indeed a headphone incompatibility. The headphones I'm using have a TRRS (4-pole) connector, presumably because they have a mic for use with smartphone gadgets. I couldn't actually find a pair of headphones in my household with a standard TRS connector, but I did find a TRRS > TRS adaptor and it completely solves the problem. A picture might help. The one on the left, no good, the one on the right, works perfectly: Does this apply to your situation, flbo? It's maybe obvious in retrospect, but the symptoms are super-unexpected, so if anyone can reproduce THIS problem that might be a bug worth reporting. Or they could at least put a warning in the manual. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flbo Posted January 7, 2018 Author Share Posted January 7, 2018 Hi 4bar, unfortunately my headphone has a 3-pole connector. Even worse: with a 4-pole connector it works (sometimes) better ... but only sporadically. I noticed that some plugs have a slightly different length ... which has an influence ... carefully pulling the plug very little and fixing it changes the sound ... sometimes. Let’s see if the solution you have will hold ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flbo Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 Issue resolved ... reasons were twofolded: 1. Hardware issue in the PX560 which occurred sporadically ... a nasty slack joint ... depending on the force pullling down the cable (length) ... so my normal headphone never worked ... resolved when recently got an exchange 2. Some (!) 4-pole connectors don‘t get the contact for GND ... depends on precise length of the connector ... I have some that work while others don‘t (tiny length difference). This problem is not fixed with the new keyboard - Casio could improve this by using different female connectors Both problems cause GND connection problems which affects lower frequencies more than higher ones and especially depends on the signal difference of left and right ear - this may (?) explain why acoustic effects like early reflection (and some other) seemingly fixed the problem... actually it just covered it well. Finally: Very tricky ... but solved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlenK Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Nice detective work, flbo. Root-cause analysis can sometimes be very difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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