oscar1 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 So with the marvelous PX-S1000 which replaces the lowest end with a bang, should we expect that also higher privia models like the console will get refresh this year? It would be only logical, but is there some insider info on this or is the PX-870 going to be top of the line for years (while the S1000 probably now sounding better having new samples and features from GP) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Saucier Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Casio doesn't (or any other companies) reveal their plans. We can only speculate. The PX-850 was released in the last half of 2012. The PX-860 was released in the first half of 2015. The PX-870 was released in the last half of 2017. You can probably draw your own conclusions from that information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler Holloway Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Like Brad said, it's hard to say. I wouldn't expect to hear about any new products until at least the summer (the PX-870 was announced at Summer NAMM 2017, released a few months later in September). Seems unlikely that another new Privia would hit the market in 2019, especially considering the PX-560 and PX-5S are still doing very well. One might be teased around the holidays before showing up at Winter NAMM 2020. I would look to the product lines that haven't been updated in a while for clues on what will come next. We can tell from the release of the CDP-S350 and the LK-551 that they are looking to implement the AiX sound source in a wider range of products outside the CT-X series, but the Privia series is moving forward with an improved sound source based on the AiR chipset. The CT-X boards are already killing it with the cost-effective arranger crowd that the CTKs used to occupy, and they seem to be sticking with the SA-76 and SA-46 in the super cheap minikey range so I doubt we'll see new stuff targeting that market (doesn't make sense for them to implement AiX on the super cheap stuff anyway). The intermediate level workstations (WK), pro-level arrangers (MZ-X) and performance synths (XW) are the most out of date and (in my opinion) the models that would benefit most from an "AiX update" in the current line-up. The most recently announced WK workstations were the 6600 and 7600, which debuted at Winter NAMM 2014. The MZ-X Arrangers debuted at Winter NAMM 2016. The XW-G1 and XW-P1 synths were announced at Winter NAMM 2012, shipped in March of that year. My money's on a full-featured AiX workstation as the next big thing to drop. "WK-X" or something like that. Deep down in my heart of hearts I want some updated XW-2 models, but the affordable synth market that Casio targeted with the previous XWs is super saturated right now (how is the Behringer Crave $199?!?!? That's just financially irresponsible, Uli...) so I think it'll be a long time before we see another Casio synth on the market. Pure speculation at this point, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike71 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 2 hours ago, Chandler Holloway said: The most recently announced WK workstations were the 6600 and 7600, which debuted at Winter NAMM 2014. The MZ-X Arrangers debuted at Winter NAMM 2016. The XW-G1 and XW-P1 synths were announced at Winter NAMM 2012, shipped in March of that year. think it'll be a long time before we see another Casio synth on the market. Pure speculation at this point, though. You're forgetting the PX-5S - was marketed in 2013. I consider it a stage piano/synth hybrid, and the PX-560 is different in some aspects. I sectetly hope that they are testing a new chipset capable of sampling and having a phase distortion engine with customizable wave shapes, but I don't hold my breath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlenK Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 9 hours ago, Chandler Holloway said: Deep down in my heart of hearts I want some updated XW-2 models, but the affordable synth market that Casio targeted with the previous XWs is super saturated right now (how is the Behringer Crave $199?!?!? That's just financially irresponsible, Uli...) so I think it'll be a long time before we see another Casio synth on the market. Pure speculation at this point, though. Something counter-productive to further development of synths happened at Casio some time after they released the PX-5S. That was the time for them to strike, while the iron was hot. They were never going to get a better chance for regaining a foothold in the pro synth/keyboard market than that. But it never happened. And now the field of low-cost synths is flooded. Unfortunate for Casio, good for us. Wrt Behringer, they are smoking hot right now. With both original products and re-issues, they seem to be working their way up through synth history. Could they be the company that finally provides what Roland seemingly won't: a re-issue of the ever-popular Jupiter 8? Some day they may even reach the early age of digital synths. Could a Behringer CZ synth appear? The patents on the tech lapsed long ago. I would buy one, I think (or maybe a keyboardless module, which Behringer has been producing too). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Saucier Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 If Behringer releases a CZ-ish keyboard before Casio does, not happy is going to be an understatement for my mood. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler Holloway Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 45 minutes ago, AlenK said: Wrt Behringer, they are smoking hot right now. With both original products and re-issues, they seem to be working their way up through synth history. Could they be the company that finally provides what Roland seemingly won't: a re-issue of the ever-popular Jupiter 8? Some day they may even reach the early age of digital synths. Could a Behringer CZ synth appear? The patents on the tech lapsed long ago. I would buy one, I think (or maybe a keyboardless module, which Behringer has been producing too). We'd see a Behringer DX-7 or D-50 clone long before we saw a CZ-1 clone, just based off of the historical "prestige" hierarchy of digital synthesis engines. Not downplaying PD synthesis in any way here (I love the CZ app), but in terms of what gets the nostalgia-chasers to reach for their wallets, FM or LA reissues would probably be more effective than PD. I expect Behringer to finish dunking on everyone in the world of analog synths, then ride that success into making super affordable eurorack/modular gear because there's absolutely no competition there. The Volca modular Korg just announced had a ton of potential to capitalize on that audience, but oh man, the Crave just does so much more for nearly the exact same price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlenK Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Quote We'd see a Behringer DX-7 or D-50 clone long before we saw a CZ-1 clone, just based off of the historical "prestige" hierarchy of digital synthesis engines. Not downplaying PD synthesis in any way here (I love the CZ app), but in terms of what gets the nostalgia-chasers to reach for their wallets, FM or LA reissues would probably be more effective than PD. I would agree EXCEPT I doubt Roland or Yamaha would ever let them. No one can, effectively, do an LA re-issue without licensing the waveforms in the ROM. Many (although not all) of the most famous LA sounds depend on those specific waveforms. I doubt that Behringer would pay a license or that Roland would agree to license it to them. For FM in hardware (pure software is a different thing), the original patents have lapsed, but it seems likely Yamaha has newer ones that cover the technology given their recent re-introduction of mainstream FM in the Montage and MODX (and a little earlier in the Reface DX). Yamaha has traditionally been aggressively litigious concerning FM and I would expect similar vigor today. So IF Behringer ever does a classic digital-synth re-issue (a big if, I admit), the CZ line is probably the next best thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler Holloway Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Good point about Roland and LA synthesis. You're a very knowledgeable guy Alen, it's nice to have you around on the forums. I would point to the Elektron Digitone and the Korg Volca FM (which is basically a 3-voice DX-7, even down to patch compatibility) as examples of other companies taking a swing at FM synthesis with great success. Unless there's some distinction in the FM implementation on those units that protects them from a potential Yamaha lawsuit, in which case I'm all ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike71 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 In the computer I am using in this exact moment I have a 01:00.0 Multimedia audio controller: C-Media Electronics Inc CMI8738/CMI8768 PCI Audio (rev 10) board that has a PCI-compatible bus interface and a FM capable 4-operator sound generator. I think that one could take a bunch of these chips, an Intel SoC with a PCI interface and make an FM synthesizer. Besides, if chip makers were making OPL-3 compatible sound chip and Yamaha didn't catch them maybe a reverse engineered IC was OK. By the way, it's not too difficult to emulate an FM chip in hardware, I think that a SID 6851 it's harder... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscar1 Posted January 30, 2019 Author Share Posted January 30, 2019 (edited) It is true about behringer. Even people I know that would never touch behringer with a ten foot pole now changed their mind. Behringer totally rode the success from cheap made copies of effects and racks into a serious synth company. Had they do it in reverse and started with serious synth they would not exist today. I was thinking of upgrading from the PX-860 to PX-870, but I changed my mind and I will simply wait what casio has in store in the next year or two. The PX-860 is perfectly fine and casio seems to really be serious about the digital piano market. Funny, like the behringer casio used to be a bad word in the digital pianos but the tides are changing. Still I have yet to see a casio piano in music halls, kawais and yamaha still hold the torch, but it may not be for long. It only needs peoples opinion to change, otherwise the pianos are already there. Edited January 30, 2019 by oscar1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlenK Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 5 hours ago, Chandler Holloway said: I would point to the Elektron Digitone and the Korg Volca FM (which is basically a 3-voice DX-7, even down to patch compatibility) as examples of other companies taking a swing at FM synthesis with great success. Unless there's some distinction in the FM implementation on those units that protects them from a potential Yamaha lawsuit, in which case I'm all ears. Good examples. The Korg Volca FM is indeed straight-up DX7 style FM and the Digitone (which I didn't know about) is 4-op FM with a nice little enhancement (additive harmonic control of waveforms). Korg, being a fellow Japanese company and unfailingly "polite" when it comes to using the technology of other companies, probably sought Yamaha's blessing. They may already have had that given their DS-8 in the 80's and MOD-7 in the Kronos more recently (although strictly speaking the latter is really just a software implementation, which is muddier waters). Elektron may be too small of a company for Yamaha to care about. Or maybe you are right and Yamaha is not today so lawyer-happy. But does that mean that a company like Behringer could come out with an in-your-face re-issue of a DX7 or even a DX9 without blowback? Maybe, maybe not. It could be that as long as Behringer doesn't use anything Yamaha has recently patented, Yamaha wouldn't legally be able to do anything about it. BTW, I don't share the Internet outrage I have heard over Behringer's re-issues of historic synths. If it's legal (which it has been so far, notwithstanding some cloned products Behringer did in the past) and if they think they can be successful at it, more power to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler Holloway Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I don't really get the outrage either. If the patents have expired and the parent companies haven't put forth their own reissues (or they haven't reissued it in a way that satisfies the customers begging for a reissue), then you can't fault others for trying their hand at it. If they were cheap knock-off cash grabs, that's one thing, but judging from the critical reception, the new Behringer clones have great build quality and manage to remain faithful to the originals while also going a step further to make it a true "reimagining" (like the Behringer 808, or the forthcoming Oberheim clone). They also have original synths alongside the clones that have been well-received in their own right, like the Crave and the DeepMind. The pricing of the clones is definitely cause for concern. On the one hand you can't fault him for making analog synthesis (in the context of these "legacy workflows") more accessible to the masses, but on the other hand I think the affordable analog synth market is already in a very precarious financial bubble and all these sub $300 powerhouse Behringer clones are unlikely to improve that situation. It's great now, but the lasting impact of this pricing arms race is likely to hurt boutique companies like Moog and DSI who need to charge premium prices to support the way they do business. However, I think my previous speculations are correct. Behringer plans to conquer the affordable eurorack market with a line of 40+ sub $100 modules to hit the market over the next two years. I think the digital synths will be safe from cloning for at least a few years, but who knows. The company is poised for massive growth in the next few years, no doubt about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headhunter Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 On 1/30/2019 at 10:43 AM, mike71 said: You're forgetting the PX-5S - was marketed in 2013. I consider it a stage piano/synth hybrid, and the PX-560 is different in some aspects. I sectetly hope that they are testing a new chipset capable of sampling and having a phase distortion engine with customizable wave shapes, but I don't hold my breath. A new successor to the PX-5S would be exactly what I am looking for. Considering the new PX-S line perhaps with their new (less noisy!) smart scaled hammer action, the new piano sounds, the AiR/AiX hybrid sound engine used in the PX-S series, but still with Hex layers and the extended controller functions from the PX-5S. Expression pedal port and Audio over USB would be nice, too. If it gets a touch screen like the PX-560 and the portable 3-pedal solution of the PX-S series, it would make the perfect digital piano/controller/synth workhorse. As the PX-5S is quite old now and already hard to get in stores (is it still in production?), I hope that there will be a successor, soon. I am currently in the situation having to decide if I buy a PX-560 NOW or wait for the PX-5S successor. The new PX-S line doesn't really appeal to me (only rudimentary MIDI controller functions, no firmware updates planned (as stated here in the forums)). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- T - Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 On 1/30/2019 at 12:41 AM, Chandler Holloway said: We can tell from the release of the CDP-S350 and the LK-551 that they are looking to implement the AiX sound source in a wider range of products Chandler What is an LK-551? When I search on that, I get either the LK-55 or the CTK-551. Both of these are older entry level models. Did either or both of these have the AIX sound engine. I didn't realize it had been in production that long. The spec sheets in the manuals for either of these models do not list the sound engines. This caught my attention, because I thought I new the entire "LK" line fairly well, but had never come across an LK-551. - T - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler Holloway Posted May 25, 2019 Share Posted May 25, 2019 Ah, my bad. It’s actually the LK-511. Too many model numbers to remember, eh? It’s a Japan only model produced as part of Casio’s Hikari sub-brand, which doesn’t exist here in the states. Here’s the product page. It will most likely be localized to the US and EU with a case redesign in the near future, although that’s just my educated guess. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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