Rip off or licenced Casio SA-46?

[Chas]

I was browsing Amazon the other day, and a "sponsored" item appeared looking rather similar to a Casio model.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Keyboard-37-Key-Electronic-Instrument-Multi-function-Music-Educational/dp/B07RLZBVQ3/ref=pd_cart_vw_crc_2_3/140-7371208-5982832?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07RLZBVQ3&pd_rd_r=3e736305-e0fb-4cd7-ae4e-a1b22f6e7a55&pd_rd_w=HWmof&pd_rd_wg=oy4yK&pf_rd_p=aa9f3def-b8ac-4b15-aa4b-c6a8313c2f5e&pf_rd_r=MJQG56XPYK4X2KFX5BWK&psc=1&refRID=MJQG56XPYK4X2KFX5BWK

 

It's branded as a "Canto" (rather similar name to "Casio"), and its design and layout looks almost identical to the Casio SA-46. It has more sounds and rhythms than the SA-46, but judging by the cheap as chips keyboard I recently bought ($15 delivered!) to see just how good/ bad these cheap Chinese keyboards can be, I suspect it sounds awful.

 

The Amazon price is $35.99, but considering the genuine Casio SA-46 retails for just a few dollars more ($39.99 at Walmart), I know I'd rather pay more knowing I was getting Casio build and sound quality. I've also noticed an SA-76 style knock off cheap keyboard available too.

 

Or are these actual licenced Casio designs? I suspect not, and I am almost certain that the construction is cheap and nasty and that it uses a horrible generic Chinese sound source chip!

 

Anyone know if these are blatant copies or actual licenced Casio designs?

 

[XW-Addict]

Well well it does looks like a copy. What I want to know is what multi-function means. 

[Jokeyman123]

Wow, is this legal? I would think not. If Casio isn't licensing "Canto" using an alternate cheesy name, this could be trouble for Canto. but then, the Chinese companies are copying everything they can get away with, at least for now. Of course, there is no guarantee this thing makes any sounds other than weasel farts, duck quacks and cheese. If i were Casio, I would be asking Amazon a few questions.

[Jokeyman123]

Multi-function means you can play the keys, or flip it upside down and use the back for a cheese cutting board. Just a guess.

[craZivn]

I don't know, that "Liquid Erystal Shower" is probably way higher definition than the Casio's traditional liquid crystal display. Anybody know were to source liquid erystals?

 

Ivan

[Chas]

17 hours ago, craZivn said:

I don't know, that "Liquid Erystal Shower" is probably way higher definition than the Casio's traditional liquid crystal display. Anybody know were to source liquid erystals?

 

Ivan

 

 "Liquid Erystal Shower" sounds like something you would take in a post apocalyptic dystopian  world after a nuclear fall out! 😂 

[Ijomne]

I saw a video of the Canto HL-70. 

It sounds like a General MIDI soundset, the exact one used in Chinese and Indian music.

I think they are produced for the South Asian market.

There’s another model called the HL-500 that is a knockoff of the SA-76.

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

Definitely a fake! I own this tablehooter and love it because undoubtly most will hate.

"LIQUID ERYSTAL SHOWER" - WTF!? (fake Casio SA-46)

Last week I got on eBay another Casio bootleg shanzhai tablehooter "CANTO HL-70". The thing looks superficially like Casio SA-46 and even the unbranded original box comes in the classic grey-green. The control panel layout (not button writing) is similar but has no volume slider and changed button colours, and it has 37 instead of 32 midsize keys. The proudly advertised USB port is only the 5V supply (alternatively 4 batteries can be used). Instead of the LCD it has a red 3 digit 7 segment LED display, which black frame has a golden clef and note icon at the sides and a big golden engrish writing "LIQUID ERYSTAL SHOWER" (ROFL-copter... - I couldn't stop laughing when I was reading this on eBay). :-)

It was bought defective, but after resoldering the speaker wire it came back to life. I haven't analyzed the hardware closer, but the flimsy plastic looks and stinks like Chinese MQ-series toy keyboards (hole for deadly mains jack was obviously removed in the case mould). Inside I found on the keymech embossed text "HL-46". (The "46" suggests where the case style came from.) By trashiness this tablehooter can be considered "My Music Center"-grade.

The user interface is very quirky and tends to reset the keypad by timer to the least-useful mode (e.g. rhythm select when rhythm is on). Only 3 digit combinations are recognized, or the +/- buttons, those also select main and rhythm volume.

Despite 4-note polyphony, the omitted matrix diodes allow only monophonic play, because certain 2 note combinations truncate each other when pressed slightly harder. (The keys itself don't feel that bad, and soldering 37 diodes in can make it playable.) Even worse, pressing the rhythm start/stop button completely messes up the octave setting of most preset sounds (like organ, flute etc.); apparently certain internal polyphony channels become assigned to a wrong octave or sound, so every 2nd played note (excluding repeated notes) play wrong, which gives an accidental strange arpeggator-like behaviour. This makes rhythm very akward to use, because after starting it, the preset sound needs to be re-selected by hand.

The thing has impressive 128 preset sounds (each made from a static waveform with volume envelope, some are doublets) with strong aliasing noise in high notes. The 'effect' button cycles through {sustain, fast vibrato (8hz?), off}.

The 128 preset rhythms are made from plain lo-fi samples and mostly sound like algorithmically generated from bit patterns of their number or such things, so many hammer very machine-like (not that bad - can be inspiring for tekkno). Some even include some kind of phasing, like when accents are simulated by playing twice the same drum.

There is also the typical monophonic record/playback sequencer found on toy keyboards, and even a simple programmable drum pattern (using the 4 percussion sounds of the drumpad buttons).

The 5 demo songs sound poorly arranged like when its sequencer tracks run slightly out of sync. Apparently they can be also used for some kind of learning mode.

demos:
- Camptown Races
- MY Bonnie
- Ring De Banjo
- Oh! Susannah
- Christmas Tree

This tablehooter is another nice example what you can expect when a knock-off looks somehow like Casio but isn't.

[mike71]

On 12/14/2019 at 10:11 PM, Chas said:

 

 "Liquid Erystal Shower" sounds like something you would take in a post apocalyptic dystopian  world after a nuclear fall out! 😂 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g24z3_og_zY

Originally the name was Magical Sound Shower

 

Back in topic, given the cost of the original Casio keyboard, what is the target market?

I think it's a rip off for grandpas that will like to make a gift, and for the kid that gets a bad toy. These ultra cheap keyboards are normally found in open air markets and in some toy shops.

I've seen these keyboard near more sesible instruments like these mechanical toy piano.

https://schoenhut.com/collections/baby-grand-pianos/products/18-key-mini-grand

[Jokeyman123]

Yes....but these Chinese knock-offs can run off dilitihum crystals, whereas the genuine Casios are limited to regular battery power. And can play at warp speed. Make sure you wear your hazmat suit though, don't get too close to the impulse power.

 

[Chas]

2 hours ago, mike71 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g24z3_og_zY

Originally the name was Magical Sound Shower

 

Back in topic, given the cost of the original Casio keyboard, what is the target market?

I think it's a rip off for grandpas that will like to make a gift, and for the kid that gets a bad toy. These ultra cheap keyboards are normally found in open air markets and in some toy shops.

I've seen these keyboard near more sesible instruments like these mechanical toy piano.

https://schoenhut.com/collections/baby-grand-pianos/products/18-key-mini-grand

 

The monent you mentioned "Magical Sound Shower", and before I even opened your link, I was immediately taken back to 1987 where I pumped far too much of my money into Out Run and Space Harrier arcade machines!

 

With regards to the target market for those Casio rip offs, I believe it's a Chinese home market keyboard made as cheaply as possible. The Chinese market has a very lax attitude towards copyright, hence these Casio clones appearing. However, it appears that it is only the looks that are cloned, underneath they are cheap and nasty and sound no where near as good as a real Casio. Some distributors import them and sell them at knock down prices to unsuspecting buyers. My concern is that some are so awful they could put budding keyboards off playing keys for life!

 

I recently bought an "MQ" keyboard, advertised as a "Music Workstation". It was new and cost just $15 including shipping (!) I bought it to see just how bad they could be, and also to see if there was any possible way they could actually be used in a decent recording. If you buy one, you can immediately see how they are able to sell them so cheaply. Everything about them is the lowest possible quality, from construction and parts to the actual sound engine. It also had that unmistakable cheap plastic chemical stink! 

 

I'm still going to try and make a whole track with it, but unlike the Casio SA-76 track that I recently wrote (see share your own music here section for the track "Harold F."), using the MQ to get anything close to what I could do with the SA-76 is going to be quite a challenge...😱

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

By the way, MQ keyboards are manufactured by the Chinese company Jinjiang Shengle Toys.

http://www.shengletoys.com/en

These tablehooters are made of very flimsy brittle (recycled?) polystyrene plastic that stinks of gasoline, and contain a mess of very flimsy wires. Early models even contained a switching PSU as a tiny PCB dangling on a single screw on its brittle plastic posts - this all connected to the mains jack and other parts with the same flimsy wires. Any hard bump could have torn it loose to start a room fire or electricute headphone wearers. While Yongmei keyboards can be very similar, details look different. E.g. MQ stuff often has an embossed decorative pattern on the plastic case bottom.

Most annoying are polyphony flaws by omitted matrix diodes. These can be retrofitted, which however needs very much of unpleasant soldering work using enamelled wires and one diode per key. (I today examined the keys PCB.) The glassy sounding single chip CPU may be made by Holtek (original "My Music Center"), SunPlus or Nyquest.

And no, it was no meant to be "Magical Sound Shower". (The nice Outrun theme ran on FM sound hardware almost comparable with a Yamaha DX7 synth.)

The Canto HT-70 is not even really a fake (else it would be printed "Casio" and imitate it closer) but a wannabe. Chinese name that "shanzhai", which is a culture that can be rather considered a more or less artistic form of irony than an actual attempt of frauding customers. Yes it may fool some grannies (those saw a real SA-46 in a store when their child pointed at it), but nobody would really confuse both. I do also proclaim "CMD.EXE" (Copyright Must Die - EXEcute it). Such products are not actual fraud. Only the poor quality (polyphony bugs, solvent odour, deadly mains jack in old versions, and of course sweatshop labour) may make them an unethical business. And of course an SA-46 sounds and functions so much better. If you want one, buy it from Casio.

[mike71]

It's not like the Adidash brand 🙂 https://www.gigole-store.com/en/prodotto/ENERGIE-/14489/?c=229 

https://store.kitchenrebel.com/products/adihash-mens-short-sleeve-t-shirt

 

On the other hand I have seen "CASION" watches, in the case of watches the lower quality was apparent: they normally used an LCD movement common to other low end watches, with only 4 digits.

On the other hand I've seen calculators that are looking exactly like this https://www.casio-intl.com/asia/en/calc/products/SL-760LC-BK/

but don't have the Casio branding, instead they have a store brand, and have different fonts and colours used. Maybe they were done by Casio and rebranded or someone made them exactly like the original, getting ICs and LCD from suppliers. I have bought some stuff sold on that store brand, and is of decent quality.

 

PS:for some food it's easy to find that are made in the same shop. See the store brand and the manufacturer brand. I can assure you that they look and taste the same 🙂

 

 

 

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

In Germany we also have plenty of rebranded cookies made by the same companies (e.g. Aldi sells them). Because EU enforces codes for postal address on food product packages, they can be easily identified.

The CPU inside my Canto HL-70 is labelled "KT64C-02A8, 130909" (28 pin COB, crystal clocked at 14.31818MHz). It apparently has 2 stereo channel outputs (printed on PCB) despite there is only one speaker installed. The slightly chorused timbres with aliasing distortion sound like a Holtek product, but I haven't dug deeper into the waveforms.

By the way, also Casio made MQ- stuff. But these were melody calculator alarm clocks. Today I took PCB photos of a broken Casio MQ-1200 (based on ML-90 CPU) with the infamous LCD foil cable problem.

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

Another variant of the SA-46 knockoff is named SANMERSEN YCY-0878 (box brand SANMERSEN, seen on eBay). It is labelled with only each 100 Tones and Rhythms (not 128) and has a real LCD (backlit 3 digit dot matrix, bezel has only note icons, no label "Liquid Erystal Shower"). The button names differ from HL-70. Pink, black and blue versions were made (depicted on box).

It has 10 demos. The names on photo are barely readable and so may be a wild guess.

00 For Elise
01 Music Box Dancer
02 The Farmer in the Dell (?)
03 Little White Boat (?)
04 Happy Birthday
05 Twinkle Twinkle Little Star
06 Mozart Piano Sonata
07 Chopin Nocturne
08 The Maiden's Prayer (?)
09 Dancing (?)

The buttons are:

EFFECT, TONE SEL
RECORD, PLAY, PROGRAM, START/STOP [the big button], "Combinational Key" (?) [= numpad]
ME TRONOME, DRUM KITS, VOLUME, TEMPO, TRAN SPOSE, DEMO ONE, DEMO ALL, TONE, RHYTHM

I don't own this version but only saw it on eBay. Interesting is that the panel button contacts on my HL-70 PCB are printed with even different names (e.g. CHORD, SYNC, SOUND, RHYTHM | MODE, TONE | RECORD, PROG), which hints that a 3rd version with yet another different CPU (likely including chord/accompaniment) exists.

[timbr]

Dang, if I'd bothered to read this thread to the end first, I wouldn't have written a lengthy post that I can now bin almost completely. But it's not the time to rewrite it now, so here's only the first paragraph of said post, plus a few additional comment: 

 

Due to insomnia, I came across a weird 2020 YT video where some influencer babe was 'reviewing' 8 "cheapest instruments" (of their respective kind) from Amazon (If you want to spare yourself the rest of the video, the keyboard starts at 9:53). What immediately caught my eye, was the resemblance of the Casio SA-46/47. 
 

 

That keyboard is the aforementioned YCY-0878. It differs (among other things already mentioned) in redesigned speaker grills from the HL-70. 

On the Amazon page linked under the video (non-affiliate link), the brand name ist stated as 'TWFRIC', but otherwise it goes by the (only slightly less strange, IMHO) brand name 'M SANMERSEN' (note the single 'M' at the beginning; the brand can be encountered on Amazon.com quite frequently), which is also what the logo on the keyboard itself says (also in the video, top right on the panel). 

 

It's a bit strange that it has redesigned speaker grills, but the buttons are exactly the same (in size and plaecement, not in function) as on the Canto HL-70. And why this thingy only has *single* Volume, Tempo and Transpose buttons, is beyond me. 

 

Pic YCY-0878 & box. 

 

 

BTW: Quite recently, a video with an intensive review of the Canto HL-70 has come online: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DPuhhP4Als

 

[Pravito]

128 sounds? must be a GM bank without drum kits

[Pravito]

On 1/30/2020 at 11:41 PM, Brad Saucier said:

Wonder what will happen when the LIQUID ERYSTAL SHOWER hits 88 miles per hour.  

I would like to made this word into a sticker and put it under the screen of my CT-X700 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Pravito]

Okay, jokes aside, I think "shower" is just a corruption of "Display". The display was meant to "show" the information, so it's poorly termed "shower" under a broken English 😅

 

While "Erystal" is, well, typical Chinese knockoffs with its typos. I've seen worse "typo" products, such as fake keyboard amplifier with 'Rollens' brand (possibly Roland KC-350 knockoff due to its design), EL LUMINOUS watch which replicate the Casio Illuminator watch, or even a fake PlayStation Portable called POP Station (which plays nothing but Tetris) 

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Pravito

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

When a bootleg plastic case of a device has same size but some details changed, it may even be that the manufacturer copied the mould by scanning the case of an original from inside and outside to replicate it, because development of injection moulds is complex (needs to compute material thicknesses to prevent cracking or distortion during cooldown etc.) and severely expensive. When the design is taken from an older out-of-production device, it can also happens that the original mould was bought/found as scrap and put back into use.