MIDI sync without midi clock

[Jokeyman123]

I have been trying to find a way to sync the midi recorder from the PX560 that does not have midi clock in/out to my other midi devices that do-such as the Yamaha QY100, Roland MC-505 and other keyboard workstations with built-in sequence midi recorders tha have midi clock. I have done quite a bit of google searching already, but I am not finding anything clearly describing how this might be done-I do not want to involve computers, which will IMO only louse timing up even worse. I suspect there may be a way using an audio click track generated from the the PX560, but I haven't had to deal with this problem until now-most of my midi devices have midi clock in/out and i would like to be able to use the PX560 synced to midi recordings I make with other hardware sequencers. I use wind, drum and mallet controllers to record midi tracks, and I can only do that with other midi recorders that can record with external controllers.  Would be very useful to be able to sync those tracks to the PX560, or the other way around. I also have digital audio recorders that generate midi time code, but I don't think this can be used for midi clock sync. Any suggestions are welcome.

[mike71]

Thecnically it's a computer but the route could be using a MIDI - Arduino interface

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12898

 

In this case having on the 560 a drum track that plays 12 beats per quarter and has a 50% length will generate 12 note on and 12 note off events per quarter. Make the Arduino process it and transform in a sync data.

There are libraries to manage MIDI data on Arduino, or one coul directly access the serial port.

 

 

 

[Jokeyman123]

Might work-found this called "Bastl Klik"-a small box that supposedly converts an audio signal to midi clocks.....not sure if this will work, found it for around 57 US dollars.

 

https://bastl-instruments.com/instruments/klik

 

if i know it works, might be a solution to our Casios without midi clock. I haven't tested it yet, but I will check to see if the PX560 audio recorder syncs internally to its midi recorder.  I'm trying to find a way to sync my external midi controllers' midi tracks recorded into my MC-505/PMA-5 or Yamaha QY recorders with the PX560 midi recorder. Would give me a huge leap in capabilities when creating compositions. As an alternate solution-I will see what get sent out from the midi recorder to another midi recorder software/hardware. If this works, I can record existing PX560 midi tracks into the QYs or MC505-add my external controller tracks to those devices-I have recorded some tracks already using a malletkat and Yamaha WX7/11) to the QYs-then play those tracks into  the PX560 which I know will work. A little roundabout of doing what I want-but I wanted to use tones in the PX560 for the entire composition and this might work. 

[Chas]

If you are recording into DAW, then you might get away with simply matching the tempo of the PX to the tempo set in the DAW.

 

I did this recently when I wanted to add some extra parts to a track that I had previously recorded as a stereo mp3. I knew that the original track was performed at 120 bpm, so set that as the master tempo in the DAW. Then I imported the mp3, carefully lined it up to match the DAW metronome, et voila, perfectly aligned and the timing was perfect for the entire song duration. It also shows that modern keyboards can be so accurate with their bpm that as long as they are initially aligned to a beat, they will keep perfect time with it and without MIDI clock.

 

It's a work around for sure in a studio, and is less relevant in a live situation when multiple devices might need to be synced quickly for a performance. I also can't understand why Casio keep leaving MIDI clock out of many of their modern keyboards? Is it a limitation of USB MIDI or something? Just seems to unnecessarily cripple some otherwise wonderful products.

[Jokeyman123]

I'd be happy to be able to sync whatever is coming out of the PX560 to even one other midi device. I will try what you suggest. The Casio may have an accurate tempo clock internally-I'm not sure about some of my older equipment-such as the Roland MC-505 or my Yamaha DTX or DAWs but it is worth a try. Haven't done well trying manual sync in the past-why I never thought to try it now.  I'll work on this today and post back my results. The XW has midi clock out-but it's the sequenced tracks from the PX560 I need-and syncing my "live" recorded remote midi devices, that I need to record with other sequence recorders since the PX560 midi recorder can't record from external midi. If I lay out say a live drum performance from my DTX kit and want to use that to sync to several tracks recorded using the PX560, this creates a bit of a problem. I can always record this as audio-but again, without midi clock in the PX560 will be hard to get all parts lined up right. would be so much easier if i could just clock sync everything. The other solution which I haven't tried because I don't think it will work. Record my drum, malletkat or other midi external devices into the PX560 audio recorder, then play and record the remaining tracks live using the audio track as my "clock". I would think doing this would keep everything in sync-if the midi and audio recorder stay in sync once I've recorded the midi tracks. Thanks Chas. 

[sslyutov]

This is a great question.

I have reviewed User Guide, MIDI implementation and Appendix.

What I have found PX does use internal (adjustable to different time signature) synchronization but it does not help with synchronization with external devices.

Maybe the information about synchronization with external devices can be found somewhere else.

 

Generally there are two options for synchronization - using MIDI and audio.

If the device can be a master (in MIDI) then it supposes to be able to send clock out messages.

 

I would assume that PX by default in the master mode. To check this, pair it with another device in a slave mode and start some accompaniment.

You can do the reverse test in order to see whether PX reads the sync messages.

 

The audio synchronization is available on many devices. Normally such devices have follower functionality.

If your other instruments have the option to synchronize using audio-in then PX can serve as a master device for them.

 

 

 

 

[sslyutov]

Your are Yamaha QY100 does support MIDI sync (master and slave modes)

https://jp.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/8/318568/QY100E1.pdf

page 247

 

Same thing about Roland MC-505

https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/MC-505_OM.pdf

chapter 15

[Jokeyman123]

I'd be happy to be able to sync whatever is coming out of the PX560 to even one other midi device. Chas, I will try what you suggest. The Casio may have an accurate tempo clock internally-I'm not sure about some of my older equipment-such as the Roland MC-505 or my Yamaha DTX or DAWs but it is worth a try. I know all these devices have midi clock in/out and can be synced together.

 

Haven't done well trying manual sync in the past-why I never thought to try it now.  I'll work on this today and post back my results. The XW has midi clock out-but it's the sequenced tracks from the PX560 I need-and syncing my "live" recorded remote midi devices, that I need to record with other sequence recorders since the PX560 midi recorder can't record from external midi. If I lay out say a live drum performance from my DTX kit and want to use that to sync to several tracks recorded using the PX560, this creates a bit of a problem. I can always record this as audio-but again, without midi clock in the PX560 will be hard to get all parts lined up right. would be so much easier if i could just clock sync everything. The other solution which I haven't tried because I don't think it will work. Record my drum, malletkat or other midi external devices into the PX560 audio recorder, then play and record the remaining tracks live using the audio track as my "clock". I would think doing this would keep everything in sync-if the midi and audio recorder stay in sync once I've recorded the midi tracks. Thanks Chas. 

 

 

[sslyutov]

I know for sure I was using PX as a sound bank playing on Roland FA-08

[Jokeyman123]

Ss...gives me an idea....

 

Sounds like you are talking about MTC-midi time code-which is similar to SMPTE-for syncing digital and older tape machines-a few of my digital recorders have this capability-to be synced with an audio sync signal recorded along with whatever musical content is recorded, to keep more than one recorder synchronized. If the PX560 sent this type of signal out it's audio jacks, that would solve the problem. But it does not have MTC-most keyboards I've used don't, only recorders. HOWEVER>>>>

 

I have a VS-840GX Roland digital recorder that sends and receives MTC, and I'll have to check the manual but I think the Roland MC-505 may have this capability as well. I'm wondering.....................

 

If i record PX560 audio out using this recorder-MTC and the Roland-record it back into  the PX560's audio recorder-will it record the MTC sync signal? because now-I could use the PX560 audio our-as a "sync" track back into the Roland-and possibly sync whatever additional tracks I record using the PX560-into the Roland again? 

 

For example 1) I record my Yamaha DTX drum track-using the Roland VS for an audio recording. Now record that track into the PX560 audio recorder-again with the MTC signal (hopefully) striped onto that audio recording-2nd generation but its still digital, so should be no loss of quality. Now, using the audio playback from the PX560 track of the DTX drums-I add additional tracks, using the drum track as my timing guide-say adding a bassline, piano comping etc. and record this with the PX560 midi recorder-it should line up, as long as I play accurately along with my drum, or whatever rhythm track guide I use-could be a simple metronome audio recording.

 

Now I have a complete recording. Yes, an additional step or two-but if this works, it will solve the problem of recording additional midi external controllers that can sync with whatever composing i do with the PX560. I will try it, ASAP! thanks Ss for the idea, and again Chas I will try yours too. If this works I have one word to say... BRILLIANT!

[Jokeyman123]

After all this....sigh.....I was wrong, this MTC sync won't work-at least as far as I can tell. The VS-840 sends the MTC (midi time code) through it's midi port-it is not an audio "striping" track-and must be recorded using......a midi recorder. since the PX560 does not record external midi using its midi recorder, this won't work. Would have been nice, simpler. Chas-I won't give up trying the manual sync-setting tempo clock on each to the same setting, and seeing if I can keep separate midi tracks lined up. seems like the only solution so far-record my remote midi devices into the PX560 audio recorder-and record along to that with the PX560 midi recorder.

 

Brad-could you weigh in on this? What do you think-seems pretty convoluted at this point. all I'm trying to do is use a live drum/percussion track and combine it into one PX560 recording using additional PX560 midi tracks-and without using a DAW, trying to keep the computers out of the projects if at all possible. I am more confident using midi hardware whenever I can rather than software for something like this.