CZ-2000S MIDI issue

[Hylke95]

I recently acquired a Casio CZ-2000S. I have been trying to upload some patches to it from my computer. I use MIDI-OX and a MIDI-to-USB cable to send midi messages between the CZ and my computer. Notes played on the CZ are shown in the MIDI-OX window, hence I expect the midi connection is ok. However, no sysex data can be received or sent, no bytes are transferred. If I plug in the MIDI-to-USB cable while the CZ is turned on, it shows the following error message:

 

  *MIDI*
DATA ERROR!

 

When I turn it on after connecting it doesn't show this message. I'm not sure whether this error is related to the problem described above or if the CZ should be turned off when connecting anyway. I would like to be able to exchange sysex files between my CZ and computer. Any help would be much appreciated!

[Jokeyman123]

I'm not sure, memory eludes me but I think I needed to use a specific patchloader/librarian for the CZ series. Here's one but I haven't tried it....

 

https://github.com/coffeeshopped/casio-cz-editor

 

I recently sold my CZ230s which is very similar to the 2000. At one point-jumping through hoops, I installed an Atari computer emulator and the original CZ Atari editor I used when this is all there was and i was busy creating tones on the CZ-3000, CZ-101 and CZ-1 and 3-4 EZ-CZ cartridges, was tons of fun!  It worked-I'll try to find it and post here. 

[Jokeyman123]

I found this, it installed on Windows but I can't test it, I don't have the CZs anymore. The other editors are designed for MACs or ipads/iphones

 

http://olivar.premier.pagesperso-orange.fr/CZ1000/czedit.htm

[Hylke95]

Thank you for sending these links! I tried both, I haven't quite figured out how to use the first one yet. The second one seems to be the easiest program. When loading a downloaded patch, it shows the settings but "Send Patch" unfortunately doesn't work. None of the patches on the synth are updated. "Play Note" does work: the CZ plays a note but using the current patch. I will try the other editor later again

[IanB]

I recently wrote a patch editor for all CZs which is available from the Windows 10 store. It's completely free. I announced it here at the forums-

 

 

Here's a direct link to the Windows Store-

 

https://www.microsoft.com/store/productId/9NBT2LCQV3NQ

 

Feel free to give it a try

[Chas]

On 2/29/2020 at 8:41 AM, Hylke95 said:

I recently acquired a Casio CZ-2000S. I have been trying to upload some patches to it from my computer. I use MIDI-OX and a MIDI-to-USB cable to send midi messages between the CZ and my computer.

 

The MIDI to USB cable might be part of the problem. USB moves data much faster than 5 Pin DIN, so there might be timing issues when data goes from USB to 5 Pin DIN and vice versa.

 

The other issue when using any MIDI over USB is that the USB cable must be plugged directly into one of the computer's main board USB sockets and NOT via a USB hub. Hubs can cause timing issues that result in MIDI errors and problems.

 

Double check how you are connecting your USB to MIDI cable to the computer that is running MIDI-OX, and if you aren't using a USB hub, try another port on the computer anyway just in case. Also, if you have any other devices that use 5 Pin MIDI, try the cable and MIDI-OX with those to possibly isolate whether it's the cable or the CZ2000 that's the issue .

 

 

[Jokeyman123]

What cable are you using? If it is one of the cheap, generic Chinese-made USB to midi din adapter cables-this might be the problem. The other problem which I'm not sure how to solve-the Casio I believe used a rather slow, by today's standards, CPU which will only be able to handle midi data in small "packets". I'm hoping the designers of the CZ software have taken this into consideration-as your computer USB port can slam out midi data much faster than the CZ can handle, so the software must be designed to send out these packets in small enough quantities and slow enough data rates for the CZ to read, compute and create the new tone. The "buffer"-a small amount of memory in the CZ for reading midi data-can only handle so much data at once-presumably only enough for one tone at a time.  The software is sending out a patch, it has to be handled by the "buffer" memory first. All this being said, i would still suspect the cable. i have gotten the CZ230s to write new tones with Windows CZ software, but I think I used an Atari virtual machine inside my Windows OS. Not sure about Midiox, although I think that software has setting sfor 'throttling down" the rate at which the midi data is being sent through the USB port. its under "options"-"buffers" to set for both in and out ports. 

[IanB]

The USB cable is an important point.

 

Firstly tho regarding the speed; MIDI only runs at one standard speed, 31.25kHz. The CZs expect patches as a continuous Sysex stream of 263 bytes, so it's not a speed problem on the CZ. It may well be a problem for the cable though. Many MIDI interfaces don't like a big chunk of data like the CZ is expecting and simply won't send the stream properly.

The Roland UM-One is one which people (including myself!) report as being fine for handling CZ Sysex and other long streams of data. Without a thorough look at the particular electronics it would be hard to know why others don't, but a likely guess is that they have 8 bit microcontrollers inside which the programmers haven't bothered to make capable of handling more than 256, or 255, bytes in a chunk. The result is that they can't even handle one patch, which as I said is 263 bytes.

 

CZs can't do a full patch dump in one stream anyway, you basically have to send each patch separately, so that's not going to be the specific issue here.

As an aside the CZ series use one or more 7811G microcontrollers which are a Japanese iteration of the 8085/Z80 architecture, running at 12MHz. They're plenty fast enough, it's the interface that's suspect.

[Hylke95]

After trying the suggestions here I now also suspect the cable is the issue, though I didn't think it was that cheap. Is the Roland UM-One the only cable known that can handle CZ sysex data? If that solves the issue, it will definitely be worth getting one of those, thanks for pointing that out!

[IanB]

I can't say it's the only one, I'm sure other models do, but I've found on various music discussions people reporting interfaces having problems with Sysex dumps that were not a problem with a UM-One. From my own experience, I have no problems with my CZ (actually a CT6500 but that's besides the point) using it whereas my Behringer UMC interface's MIDI port doesn't work, and that's a nominally studio quality interface.

This is one of those things where it's easy to check if you've got something (in this case a UM-One) but very hard to guess otherwise.

Out of interest, what cable do you have?

I just thought of one other thing- quite a lot of USB devices don't work properly on USB 3 sockets, make sure you try it on a USB 2 socket if you haven't.

[IanB]

And finally  if you are on Windows 10 I would strongly recommend trying my editor VZV CZ (link in previous comment) as it allows you to interact directly with the CZ synth's edit buffer, which is helpful for troubleshooting. If you load a sysex patch file, clicking/tapping any of the preset numbers will instantly send the patch to the CZ edit buffer, which is the "live" sound that the synth actually makes. The patch's parameters will be loaded into the controls in VZV CZ and thus you can make modifications and then click "send live" to again download it to the synth. You can also upload the current edit buffer status with "get live".

Try seeing if any of that works?

[Hylke95]

The USB MIDI interface I use is not branded (although it may have been written on the packaging), it merely says "USB MIDI". Similar to this one, though not exactly the same: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/161466292936-0-1/s-l1000.jpg

It seemed about mid-range in price.

 

I will try your VZV CZ editor once I have tried a Roland UM-One and verified that it works, such that I can make full use of the possibilities of your editor. The live editing sounds like a very useful feature! I will then ofcourse post any bugs I may encounter in the discussion you linked

[Jokeyman123]

Oh no!!!!!  Read this-one example of....

 

https://hackaday.com/2013/07/11/the-perils-of-cheap-midi-adapters/

 

I would bet my Casio PX this is the problem. Just do a search on user reviews of these-it ain't good! I had 2-both were terrible! One flat out didn't work-but the lights flashed alot-and was missing an important IC inside-no wonder it didn't work. Another had defective solder joints-and at best was giving me hit-and miss connections even when I resoldered it. These are generally very poorly designed and assembled. I do have one that works but still chokes on any major transfers.

 

I bought a Midiman Midisport 2x2 and it works really well. Solved all the midi problems i was dealing with-all because of these *&&%%$#@ interfaces. A Midiman box like this i think has better control of sending and receiving midi "packets' of information- i think it has additional buffer memory internally so that even if too much data comes over the midi connections, it throttles it back a bit to enable less error-prone transfers. I've had no errors since i started using this.  A little more money than these cheap-o cables but well worth it if you do much sysex/other software communicating between hardware and software.  i would rate a Roland, Yamaha or these Midiman interfaces as a much more worthwhile product. I chose Midiman because their drivers tend to be more "generic"-each needs its own specialized driver-and although each driver is specifically designed with their products in mind-the Midiman has been around a long time and is (I think) better equipped to connect a variety of equipment. 

[IanB]

Jokeyman, that does look pretty awful. I'm appalled that it doesn't include an optoisolator!

[Jokeyman123]

Well, there you go-i can't make this stuff up! And it cost me hours originally-troubleshooting my computer, keyboard, software before I discovered-it was the **&^%$ cable! No optoisolator-the main component required by the original midi spec! this is alos why so many computer musicians have trouble with USB midi connections-the usb midi spec, although allowing for faster communications-there are no optoisolators in these circuits-one has to rely on whatever components in you music equipment and computer are properly grounded and shielded from sources of radio interference, and this is inconsistent at best. I think many don't understand-this is why DIN midi still tends to be a "little less" problematic than strictly USB to USB midi. I haven't looked but I bet the better quality interfaces have better quality optoisolators-and buffer memory. Pure USB midi must depend upon some kind of electronic isolation circuitry built into the equipment-and some devices I've looked at internally don't have anything like optoisolators in their circuitry, thus all kinds of ground loop hum and other assorted audio/data atrocities! 

[IanB]

Jokeyman, Indeed. It gets even worse when you consider that computers have probably the noisiest grounds you can imagine! They're not really a ground at all, more of "an average of all the noise"...

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

Omitting an optoisolator may even toast your keyboard or PC if everything is poorly designed. Imagine e.g. the keyboard has its midi ground on +12V but audio ground on 0V (with bridged power amp it might even be -15V or such). Now plug such a midi cable into PC (connecting that +12V to PC GND) and the keyboard audio out to the PC audio in (connecting keyboard 0V to the same PC GND) and kaboom! At least without protective resistor inside the midi cable it may make everything go up in soot.

[Hylke95]

That sounds rather dangerous! Luckily that didn't happen. I now have the Roland UM-ONE, and it works! Thank you all for your help!

[Jokeyman123]

You're welcome!

 

I've tried to warn others here on this forum about these cheap and possibly damaging USB/midi adapters as soon as i discovered this-over a year ago! I am also glad i did not damage any equipment-but lost many hours troubleshooting other possible problems before i discovered this c*&^%$ cable was the source of it. Buyer beware.

 

Another interesting thing I discovered re computers and shielding, I've posted this here before too....turn on a radio-portable, anything that picks up AM or FM over the air stations. Put it near your computer, then turn your computer on. This is one good way to test if your computer is "shielded" inside to prevent "RFI" Radio Frequency Interference which can be quite powerful and can even interfere with any kind of wireless-or even wired communications. if shielding is poor you will hear an amazing assortment of weird sounds! Why you are instructed to turn off cellphones in hospitals, jets etc. "Telemetry", the study and measurement of transmission and reception of communications signals is very important to understand when playing with our newest electronic musical instruments-especially now that wireless (wi-fi), bluetooth and even the older infrared communications (near-field) is constantly lurking around. Just my opinion. 

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

If I remember well, such incomplete midi cables already existed for the joystick port of early FM sound cards, so the problem is not new. I don't know if actual hardware damage by poorly made midi cables have happened, or if they only cause mains hum and data mess. But if floating voltage through an optoisolator is part of the midi specification and an old instrument depends on this, theoretically all kinds of nasty things may result when plugging low resistance outputs at different DC levels together those were never designed for such use.

Regarding EMF and shielding of PC cases, I am quite shocked to see how many "gamer" PCs come with transparent acryl sides and plenty of unshielded plastic sections (some people even operate it open), those in 1980th for shure would have quickly sent the manufacturers into prison for causing RFI, since it was considered the most important main purpose of a computer case to block interferences. E.g. the Atari 400 homecomputer and first generation VCS2600 console even contained a thick and heavy cast metal shielding around its PCB. In the age of wifi nobody really seems to care about building TEMPEST grade shielded cases anymore, but in the opposite they want to make big holes everywhere for easily placing antennas behind. (Also my Dreambox DM8000 came with unshielded case holes like barn gates.) 1980th electronics was never designed to cooperate with this plague, so it can cause noisy sound and distorted video. I have upgraded my Highscreen Colani bigtower with perforated sheetmetal and metal flyscreen inserts and additionally added plenty of ferrite cores around cables to reduce interferences on my analogue CRT TV. All my computers have been castrated (wifi and bluetooth cards removed) to defeat brain destroying pulsed microwave radiation.

[pianokeyjoe]

I suspected a cheap USB midi cable from CHINA too lol! Like minded individuals here! But here is another thing to mention for others who may read this: IF you are still using Windows XP, USB midi driver in XP has issues and sysex data corrupts even with a GOOD interface!You have to use a PCI card type MIDI interface in XP. So you are forced to upgrade to Windows 7 as a minimum, to use usb interfaces for midi and specifically sysex! I know this cause I have some Yamaha synths I had to restore data to as well a editing a Ploytec PL2 micro cube synth, and on XP with my midi interface, I could NOT upload the new firmware to either synth and almost bricked my Yamaha AN200! In Win7, I was able to fix it! So the OS matters too! Windows 98se also works great for all things midi but USB can be hit or miss since USB2 was more prevalent with XP and up. Forget Windows 2000...

 

Windows 10, has so much bugs and spyware I can not comment as I do not use that version of Windows. However, LINUX OS does well with modern midi USB devices too so that is an option. Not everyone can afford a iPhone or iPad so I will not comment on those either.

 

A simple cheap solution to the cheap usb midi would be a midisport 1x1 or 2x2 as mentioned above. The midisport UNO was horrible with sysex data and the first versions of this cable even crapped on midi note on/off sending cc messages when note on/off was supposed to be sending, when using a vintage Yamaha midi piano with a modern PC.. though, admittedly, the modern PC was a XP machine in 2007, soo there ya go.