Layered phrases-how is this done?

[Jokeyman123]

I'm not sure what is happening here, but I've noticed (only took me about 4-5 years) some of the factory phrases are calling up (I think) several layered sounds at once. I can't tell if this is being done with a "performance" setting or not. I thought (wrong again apparently) only one tone would be recorded with the phrase sequencer..Many phrases seem to be preset with a specific tone depending on the phrase-such as a bassline, chord progression etc. and I can't seem to access the mixer quite right to see exactly what is going on with these "layered" phrases-all of which are showing as tracks 1,2 and 3. Are these "layered" phrases calling up a hex layer" or doing this some other way I can't understand?  I hate that...

[Jokeyman123]

I answered my own question.

 

The manual does "sort of" describe this, not too well. Briefly mentions the word "performance". Whatever "tone" you pre-select before you create your phrase, becomes the 'default' tone that will be selected-when you select your phrase the next time-providing you saved the phrase-it saves whatever tone you had selected now as the phrase tone-including hex layers. So there you go. Easy-peezy. 

 

What confused me-some of the phrases call up "performances' as the default "tone" for the phrase-but what is actually occuring here is that there is a hex layer in the performance-I think. Of course a performance can be layered too, so I would imagine a performance can be saved-connected to a phrase, but I'll have to test that out next.  Another trick I'm going to try-since a phrase can have several "overdubbed" parts-and can also be played with a hex layer as the tone-design a hex layer with drums, bass, chord or accompaniment parts-and try overdubbing distinct parts using one phrase. 

 

This is what I like so much about the XW-even with my heaviest-hitter workstations-is still a fascinating musical instrument. Re-visiting the tones-even though just "AHL" preceding the AIX-through quality phones-A-B'ing with some more "powerful" read "expensive" keyboards-these tones are surprisingly clean. Not to sound like a fanboy-my problem now becomes a compositional one-choices for sounds, automated features is now so vast compared to even 10 years ago-I have trouble sitting down to compose simply because I can choose between thousands of sounds, and ways to construct music. And the XW can do alot of this. I remember an exercise years ago in Keyboard Magazine-I believe it was Jim Aiken or one of the pro editors that was working in the film industry at the time-he posed a simple approach-to 'define" a particular "style" (very hard now with so many or create your own)-define only a small assortment of instruments to use (again very difficult-I have 30-40 different trumpet sounds alone for example between 7-8 keyboards and modules) nail your tempo, time signature, a motif and work from there. Of all the "motif' oriented composers i can think of, the best was Beethoven-can you hum even the most popular hit right now? But how many can hum the 5th Symphony theme-ad nauseum! And of course-the 9th symphony final movement. And there is always-well you fill in the blank! __________________________

[AlenK]

An interesting observation. Can you provide some examples (identifying both the phrase and the Peformance that normally plays it)?

 

If indeed some phrases are designed to play specific Hex Layer tones, then this is reminiscent of Yamaha's old "MegaVoice" technology. In Yamaha keyboards, this was (still is?) used with pre-programmed "arpeggios," which can incorporate what we would call phrases. 

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by AlenK

[Jokeyman123]

Hello AlenK-I was reading over coincidentally your latest document revision about-well everything with the XW! Yes I will upload a few mp3's that (I think) are doing this based upon what I am seeing in the mixer screen as I play live. The interconnected synergy of the different parts of the XW still get me a bit confused at times-one of the reasons I was studying over your documentation-particularly how to use the sequencer for emulating specific tone effects not possible with the DSP settings but possible by using CC as part of the sequence. Busy day today, but I'll try to get to this later today.

[Jokeyman123]

Here is an example of my own construct, an mp3 which uses a performance in 4 parts zoned across 61 keys-simple drum, bass, piano and organ (one of my favorite organ tones I've gotten from someone here-is duplicated on the PX560 and probably others) and stored as one phrase. i did not realize the phrase recorder could be used like this-and also for of course layered hex tones which can also be overdubbed. After further experimenting-I was incorrect that particular phrases are tied to respective performances, this is not the case-each is independent of the other as far as i could find. And there are several phrases that are triggering 3-4 tracks-without the sequencer playing-in the 1st 2-3-4 tracks depending. But these seem to be mostly for layered sounds, not for independent parts such as in my mp3.  I can upload an example or two here, its not hard to find several of these phrases-but would have een easier if these did call up the correct performance!

 

  I  did not familiarize myself with the phrase concept thoroughly enough to understand the power just this one function has!  i did not create one-but as this phrase recorder, capable of overdubbing several independent parts will also synchronize with the sequencer, wow! One other difficulty I could not get a grip on-switching to the mixer when playing my phrase for example-it always defaults to controlling only the sequencer tracks-i can get to tracks 1-8 but only if I switch to editing individual parts-and can control each part from 1-8, whatever is in a programmed performance-but....alas! Moving the sliders does not give me individual control of each part independently of the others-it switches to only playing that part, and mutes the others temporarily-I can move each slider to control each part/track individually-but only one track will now play at a time. Odd, and kind of defeats the purpose of trying to make this a secondary pseudo-real-time layer control. But brings out some very handy musical possibilities-only limited by what can be done by editing a performance-and then using the not just the sequencer to play individual parts-but the phrase sequencer as well.  Here is a short example of a "phrase" created with one performance. forgive the less than pristine quality-did a quick and dirty recording directly into audacity from the lenovo laptop stereo input-now I remember why I don't usually record like this! Jokeyphrase.mp3

[AlenK]

3 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

I  did not familiarize myself with the phrase concept thoroughly enough to understand the power just this one function has!  i did not create one-but as this phrase recorder, capable of overdubbing several independent parts will also synchronize with the sequencer, wow! One other difficulty I could not get a grip on-switching to the mixer when playing my phrase for example-it always defaults to controlling only the sequencer tracks-i can get to tracks 1-8 but only if I switch to editing individual parts-and can control each part from 1-8, whatever is in a programmed performance-but....alas! Moving the sliders does not give me individual control of each part independently of the others-it switches to only playing that part, and mutes the others temporarily-I can move each slider to control each part/track individually-but only one track will now play at a time. Odd, and kind of defeats the purpose of trying to make this a secondary pseudo-real-time layer control. 

 

The phrase sequencer does not actually synchronize with the step sequencer, at least not when operated by the front panel button or by pressing keys with KEYPLAY enabled. Are you perhaps referring to the ability of the sequencer to call up phrases? That will indeed synchronize a phrase with a sequence but this is actually separate from the phrase sequencer itself. Because it is separate you can actually play a phrase directly from the phrase sequencer while a phrase is being played by the sequencer.

 

However, there are some caveats regarding the use of a phrase in a sequence. First caveat: the phrase can only play a tone in part 1 or parts 8 to 16 (1 only when that part is selected rather than part 14 for the Solo1 track) whereas a phrase played directly from the phrase recorder can play whatever is enabled in zones/parts 1 to 4. Second caveat: A phrase played from the step sequencer can only be as long (timewise) as the step-sequence pattern that plays it. When a pattern loops, the phrase will be restarted.  

 

Regarding the action of the sliders in the mixer, yes, it's unfortunate that the sliders for non-step-sequencer parts (1 - 7 ) behave in that way. I tend to think that this is a bug. There is no useful reason for such behavior whereas the usefulness of behaving the way we want it to behave is obvious.  

Edited August 29, 2021 by AlenK

[AlenK]

double post

Edited August 29, 2021 by AlenK

[Jokeyman123]

So when the phrase is playing-manually when I start it independently of "attaching " to a sequence-I guess the tempo clock is keeping this manually synced to the separate sequence? I've been doing this today-just as an experiment-and it seems to play along as if it is synchronized-even though I've created my phrase to play independently of any particular sequence-I've not programmed a sequence to play the phrase. I can record an example and upload it here if you want to hear what I am referring to. I did not set the tempo clock for the sequence, just for the phrase-and only called up a sequence as an afterthought to see if it would synchronize manually-and it did. i tried a few different factory sequences, and it seemed to behave this way throughout-I am guessing (again) what ever tempo I set when i recorded my phrase-is just manually playing the same tempo for whatever sequence I pick-rather than whatever factory tempo it was preset to, I'll have to try to pick and play a few more to see if this is definitely what is happening.

 

I have found with the PX560-and other midi gear that this is so-the Casio internal tempo clock is accurate enough to stay in sync with my other external midi devices-even without clock sync-which the 560 does not have, another rather useful little discovery.

 

So then, since I created this 8-measure loop-not really a loop but simply an 8-measure phrase-the length will only be limited by the internal phrase memory-providing I do not make it a part of a sequence. This is useful as it means I could create a rather long multi-instrument phrase (similar to my mp3 example-and manually play an entirely separate sequence composition along with it again only limited to the the sequencer's memory/length capability-hypothetically creating a phrase that will play beyond the sequencer arrangement. This seems to be what I can do. and of course the other way around. And another phrase-an entirely different phrase-which I record and save-can also be part of my sequencer recording-in sequencer mode. pretty amazing actually. I can see the need for more than 64-voice polyphony suddenly! This is definitely a swiss army knife keyboard. I also noticed-when I start switching around through all these experiments, through the various sections-performance, sequencer, phrases, hex layers-I am reaching-I think-the limits of the internal CPU-as it seems to be hiccuping a bit when I switch functions around from one to the other. Not as to interrupt the final playing mode-which seems to play without hitch-but when jumping from mode to mode, can get a little choked up.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Jokeyman123

[AlenK]

Since the step sequencer and phrase sequencer (and the arpeggiator and the LFO's) all run off the same clock, they are certainly synchronized to clock ticks. But the question is, and what I meant by being synchronized, is the start of a phrase aligned with any larger unit of time such as a beat or a measure of the step sequencer? I'm pretty sure it is not. But you can easily test this by intentionally trying to start a phrase in-between major beats (say, in-between quarter notes in 4/4 time).

 

P.S. I should address how quantizing incoming notes in the phrase sequencer affects things. My guess (I have not checked) is that the quantization timing is with respect to the first note (or controller movement) you enter when recording a phrase. So, for example, if you select quarter-note quantization and 4/4 time in the phrase sequencer and you start the phrase a little late after the beat of the step sequencer, the resulting notes will all align to quarter notes but with the same delay after the beat as the initial note. The notes of the phrase will not snap to the quarter notes of the step sequencer. But I could be wrong. In any event, this shouldn't be a problem in practise because most people will be able to start recording a phrase on a beat. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by AlenK

[Jokeyman123]

Right-regarding having to manually start the phrase and step sequencer manually-these do not snap to anything! I will try out the quantizing-so far my phrases have been done with no quantizing at all, so i did not check this. I'm sure your right about that too-regarding the delay if quantized to quarters, halfs, etc.

 

The beauty of this, despite what the XW can't do-this one has clock sync fo other midi devices, and midi din in/out-and Casios (right-think watches) have such accurate internal clocks that I can manually synchronize my other midi devices without a midi connection-if i hit my start points exactly right!  Still gives me plenty of power to create a multi-aspect arrangement with other keys, modules, sequencers-i haven't checked this manual synchronization with computer-rendered midi files or arrangements-as I assumed most computers aren't the most robust with their internal clocks for midi-not the computer's internal clocks which have solid crystal clock chips and CPU's, but the software which depending upon how well the code is written and designed, will or will not bog down the midi stream and software timing. Given how many software glitches and hiccupping I've experienced just playing midi software arrangements-even with i5/i7 Intel machines running in one laptop 16GB of ram I haven't been motivated to try that experiment.  I'm happy my hardware midis can do this. 

 

Here's something I am going to try

 

just for sheer madness-get an XW going with a step sequence arrangement with multlple tracks, a phrase sequence-then synchronize this manually with a multi-track midi and audio arrangement from my Alesis fusion, while synching all that to my 1) MC-505 2) Yamaha QY100 and 3) PMA-5 and add a few tracks from my Equinox while playing (something) live on top of all that!!!!   HA-HA-HA!!!!!! this give me roughly almost 100 tracks of music simultaneously!!!!!! MADNESS!!!! Hoo-haaa!! seriously though-would probably sound like?? well if you mix all your paint colors together into one what do you get??? I don't know that one either. XW-Addict are you reading this??? AlenK I hope you are not! they're coming to take me away ha-ha where life is beautiful all the time, and I'll be happy to see those fine young men in their clean white coats......here I am when i realized-all this was futile after all. they haven't invented electricity yet!!!! Boy does that p** me off! Napoleon the XIII.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Jokeyman123

[AlenK]

On 9/1/2021 at 1:20 PM, Jokeyman123 said:

just for sheer madness-get an XW going with a step sequence arrangement with multlple tracks, a phrase sequence-then synchronize this manually with a multi-track midi and audio arrangement from my Alesis fusion, while synching all that to my 1) MC-505 2) Yamaha QY100 and 3) PMA-5 and add a few tracks from my Equinox while playing (something) live on top of all that!!!!   HA-HA-HA!!!!!! this give me roughly almost 100 tracks of music simultaneously!!!!!! MADNESS!!!! Hoo-haaa!! seriously though-would probably sound like?? well if you mix all your paint colors together into one what do you get??? I don't know that one either. XW-Addict are you reading this??? AlenK I hope you are not!

How could I not read this?  Utter madness for sure. Maybe you can record the result and sell it to pest removal companies, for surely it would drive invading critters out of any house (as well as all the people). 

[Jokeyman123]

And I just had to pay an exterminator to remove a huge wasp nest!!! I hadn't read anything in your XW documents suggesting this....there are certain people that....

But seriously-thanks for the extensive work you've done with the XW-it is one of the reasons I can constantly "rediscover" the XW. I have been delving in a new way into the XW again-after studying many of the newest keyboard/module and software instruments-amazing hw well the XW stands up-yes it has its limitations but i've always felt a limitation can be an incentive-and much of your knowledge has verified that for me-by showing how some of those limitations can be turned into a new or different way of approaching sound design or performance features. Just my convoluted way of thanking you for your work. Jokeyman can joke about alot of things, but your knowledge is not one of them! Now back to my work!