Complete Slap Bass?

[AlenK]

Every keyboard that includes a GM sound set has a slap bass tone or sample. But it is almost always ONLY a slap bass tone or sample. When playing a bass guitar in the slap-bass style, two other tones are typically produced in addition: a "pop" tone made by pulling a string away from the body, and a dead-note tone resulting in part by muting the strings or string with the fret hand. 

 

Does any current or past Casio keyboard implement any of those "extra" tones? If not, has anyone here managed to emulate them by editing some other tone? I have a few ideas along those lines but I don't want to re-invent the wheel, so to speak, if it's not necessary. 

 

 

 

[XW-Addict]

43 minutes ago, AlenK said:

Every keyboard that includes a GM sound set has a slap bass tone or sample. But it is almost always ONLY a slap bass tone or sample. When playing a bass guitar in the slap-bass style, two other tones are typically produced in addition: a "pop" tone made by pulling a string away from the body, and a dead-note tone resulting in part by muting the strings or string with the fret hand. 

 

Does any current or past Casio keyboard implement any of those "extra" tones? If not, has anyone here managed to emulate them by editing some other tone? I have a few ideas along those lines but I don't want to re-invent the wheel, so to speak, if it's not necessary. 

 

 

 

Mike programmed a nice example contained in the second PX5S All file if its any help, its a guitar hexlayer with the muted strings and I believe a pop but not string with the fret hand. Interesting that you mentioned this right now cause I was examining phrase slap bass 1 on the PX5S today , listening to it at tempo 20. Keyboard players  such as me at my level can't play bass creatively I pondered how to put the pops and mute's as well nice bender value's to get going.   

[AlenK]

 

On 8/29/2021 at 6:19 PM, XW-Addict said:

Mike programmed a nice example contained in the second PX5S All file if its any help, its a guitar hexlayer with the muted strings and I believe a pop but not string with the fret hand. 

I don't have a PX-5S and apparently the PX-5S data editor won't let you see the structure of tones without having a PX-5S attached. If a similar tone were available for the PX-560, which I do have, I would be all set.

 

Re muted "dead" notes or what most bass players seem to call "ghost" notes (ghosts are dead people, right?), there are apparently _three_ different kinds and they all sound different. One is a slap with strings muted. The other is a pop with the strings muted. The other is a slapping action against the strings with the _fret_ hand to mute them. The latter was often used by Mark King of Level 42. As if complete slap bass emulation wasn't hard enough. 

[Jokeyman123]

I'd have to double-check as I've been programming the XW, PX560 and an Alesis Fusion all in the same week (!) so I can't recall-but somewhere in one of those, I think i came across 'articulation" guitar samples with one of the tones-i think it was the 560-in part of the range for one of the guitar tones. i think the only way to do some of this-would be a hex layer-with a separate layer that is only audible on key release for the tail end pops or mute sound. I know (just reviewed in your XW doc) that the XW does not generate release velocity and i don't think the 560 does either-but an envelope could be created separately from the body-maybe even 2 or 3 with varying levels of release-which unfortunately for the PX560 would have to be saved as individual hex layer bass guitar tones for the varying tones created on release, pr [ossibly in different zones-on the 88 keys this wouldn't be too hard. Getting the timing just right between attack, sustain and release-would probably have to be pretty short for sustain and release-might be possible with one tone-as you've documented with the XW-several factory tones use a release envelope to mimic their natural key-up such as harpsichords. I'm guessing something like this approach might work, haven;t tried it myself.

 

 String articulations-murderously hard to recreate-i play bass and each time i hit the string-it will sound different-even on the same string and pitch. 

[Chas]

1 hour ago, AlenK said:

 

Re muted "dead" notes or what most bass players seem to call "ghost" notes (ghosts are dead people, right?), there are apparently _three_ different kinds and they all sound different. One is a slap with strings muted. The other is a pop with the strings muted. The other is a slapping action against the strings with the _fret_ hand to mute them. The latter was often used by Mark King of Level 42. As if complete slap bass emulation wasn't hard enough. 

 

Then you get the upward thumb sound, as used prominently by epic jazz bassist Victor Wooten. You slap down with the thumb for the initial slap, then draw it back to play the string again with the back of the thumb nail.  And some even do right hand hammer-ons to play notes on the fret board. YouTube bass sensation Davie504 does this a lot.

 

That's the problem with slap bass being recreated on anything other than another bass guitar. There are so many different aspects and playing techniques that can be and are used way beyond the basic slap and pop. It's a style that encompasses rhythmic, melodic and percussive elements, sometimes simultaneously.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Chas

[AlenK]

1 hour ago, Chas said:

That's the problem with slap bass being recreated on anything other than another bass guitar. There are so many different aspects and playing techniques that can be and are used way beyond the basic slap and pop. It's a style that encompasses rhythmic, melodic and percussive elements, sometimes simultaneously.

Luckily, for most songs employing slap bass we wouldn't need to emulate every possible articulation. Nor would we need to sound like any particular player's personal style or like any particular bass guitar. We just need to sound like someone reasonably competent is playing _a_ bass guitar.

 

I was initially motivated to explore this after watching instructional videos of how to play Mark King's bass line in Level 42's "Love Games." Every player did it somewhat differently, every player had a different sound out of their bass guitar and even King played it differently live than on the recording. Unlike Jokeyman, I don't play bass, only regular guitars, so it makes the challenge somewhat harder. 

Edited September 5, 2021 by AlenK

[AlenK]

3 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

I'd have to double-check as I've been programming the XW, PX560 and an Alesis Fusion all in the same week (!) so I can't recall-but somewhere in one of those, I think i came across 'articulation" guitar samples with one of the tones-i think it was the 560-in part of the range for one of the guitar tones. i think the only way to do some of this-would be a hex layer-with a separate layer that is only audible on key release for the tail end pops or mute sound.

The 560 (and presumably the 5S) allows triggering a layer on key release. Unfortunately, the XW models do not. Re release velocity, AFAIK, no current Casio keyboard generates or responds to it. Heck, I doubt there have been more than a few synths/keyboards that could.

 

But, not being a bass player, I don't understand how triggering a layer on release would help for any of the articulations needed. For example, a string pulled in order to do a "pop" doesn't seem to make a sound until it is released (AFAIK from listening to videos). So when emulating the sound you would need only start it on key depression as normal. What am I missing? 

[Jokeyman123]

I can also make a second sound after I pluck or hit the string-could be called a "dead stroke" that you called a "ghost note" where it actually sounds roughly a 16th note after the intial attack and sustain-where you are noot hearing a pitch-just a secondary thump or click depending on how you damp the string-this would be your secondary sound on release-you are actually sounding 2 rhythms-similar to a keyboard where you might play a note half-step or whole step apart in quick succession-called a "hammer-on" but without the pitch? I will ask my brother-a pretty advanced bass player much more adept than me. Hard to describe-but to do this as fast as it needs to be done, I would think on the keyboard, it would have to be triggered with a key release-or with 2 different keys-one with the bass note, played quickly after with the sound of the secondary pop or mute sound. Its not quite right to call it a complete "mute" because there is an audible sound to the secondary "attack" in order to mute or dampen the string-subtle but its there. At leadt that's one way to play this. Stanley Clarke was doing this a long time ago. Try to find some tracks by Stanley Clarke playing solo work-I think "Vulcan Princess" comes to mind.  If i have any mp3s, I'll upload an example here.  Oops, no it's called "Sorceress". Here it is...not the most aggressive example-but then, this is one of the earliest examples. Wooten of course another outstanding player for this style, but i first heard it with Stanley Clarke, not sure who invented the style. And of course, the wonderful Chick Corea, another synth/piano pioneer. But then, this is one of my favorite tracks-still have the vinyl. 
Acoutic piano, synths-never heard him complain about "key action"! Armando, rest in peace.

Sorceress.mp3

Edited September 5, 2021 by Jokeyman123

[Jokeyman123]

Here's an even better example this is a Stanley Clarke composition, same album.. always loved the "slide whistle" ending. 

The Magician.mp3

Edited September 5, 2021 by Jokeyman123

[XW-Addict]

This going to be some challenging hex layered programming 

The bass play I'm lusting to do is Mark Ronson uptown funk. 

I'm kinda stoke how to make that one note slide while the rest being played.  

[AlenK]

12 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

Here's an even better example this is a Stanley Clarke composition, same album.. always loved the "slide whistle" ending. 

The Magician.mp3 5.02 MB · 3 downloads

Seems to be be some atypical bass playing there. I am going to make my life simpler and not try to emulate any of that!

[AlenK]

3 hours ago, XW-Addict said:

This going to be some challenging hex layered programming 

The bass play I'm lusting to do is Mark Ronson uptown funk. 

I'm kinda stoke how to make that one note slide while the rest being played.  

Realistic slides even with no other notes playing are hard to accomplish without actually sampling them. Hammer-ons and pull-offs (do bass players do the latter?) are also difficult to do well without sampling. Maybe impossible given that I have yet to hear any of those done convincingly. Maybe there is something in the TwiddlyBits library, which I have not heard other than the few freebies that were (once) on the company's website.   

[Jokeyman123]

Hammer-ons-i once watched my brother play an entire song with his left hand on the bass-he hammered the entire song-so he could play a blues harp with his other hand. That's when I knew I had to start paying more attention to what he was doing! And it sounded like he was finger-picking, I didn't even notice at first. Well, he''s good, studied with Richard Dsvis-the acoustic jazz bass virtuoso-in NYC. good slides-you need a good fretless electric bass. Before these were made-he made his own-by pulling the frets out and filling in the neck-was a long time ago-after he saw Jack Bruce with one. you can slide with a fretted bass, but it doesn't have the same nuance/smoothness-for playing between the notes. Harder to play-like a violin or acoustic upright-you need to constantly monitor your pitches to get your pitches exactly right-or in between but much more expressive. 

[Casio Key]

On 8/29/2021 at 6:27 PM, AlenK said:

Every keyboard that includes a GM sound set has a slap bass tone or sample. But it is almost always ONLY a slap bass tone or sample. When playing a bass guitar in the slap-bass style, two other tones are typically produced in addition: a "pop" tone made by pulling a string away from the body, and a dead-note tone resulting in part by muting the strings or string with the fret hand. 

 

Does any current or past Casio keyboard implement any of those "extra" tones? If not, has anyone here managed to emulate them by editing some other tone? I have a few ideas along those lines but I don't want to re-invent the wheel, so to speak, if it's not necessary. 

 

 

 

CASIO CT-X5000

[Casio Key]

CASIO CT-X5000 and CT-X3000.

[Casio Key]

25 minutes ago, Casio Key said:

 

 

[AlenK]

Yeah, the versatile tones are pretty good. But are either of those two bass tones slap bass? Or are they primarily fingered or picked bass? They do include a slap tone but as I discussed in the OP, a pop tone and one or more very specific sounding ghost notes are also necessary for a (semi)complete slap bass emulation. And even a gliss from a slap will sound different (initially) than a gliss from a fingered note.

 

PS. Is there any example audio or video of either of those particular tones being used? Not owning a CT-X instrument, I can’t audition them myself. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by AlenK

[XW-Addict]

19 hours ago, AlenK said:

Realistic slides even with no other notes playing are hard to accomplish without actually sampling them. Hammer-ons and pull-offs (do bass players do the latter?) are also difficult to do well without sampling. Maybe impossible given that I have yet to hear any of those done convincingly. Maybe there is something in the TwiddlyBits library, which I have not heard other than the few freebies that were (once) on the company's website.   

No hexlayers and zones are the trick , Most notes can be programmed in a way that with velocity that single note slides where it needs to go. 

including hammer-ons. I think the mistake people make with zones is for different instrument usage while in reality one can program one single 

instrument using all zones complete with velocity dsp and eq. This is certainly true for PX5S and PX560. The XW maybe the P1 hexlayer but not

the zones without cause of the limit tones have. Dave Weisner made cool bass sounds.  

[AlenK]

20 hours ago, XW-Addict said:

No hexlayers and zones are the trick , Most notes can be programmed in a way that with velocity that single note slides where it needs to go. 

including hammer-ons. I think the mistake people make with zones is for different instrument usage while in reality one can program one single 

instrument using all zones complete with velocity dsp and eq. This is certainly true for PX5S and PX560. The XW maybe the P1 hexlayer but not

the zones without cause of the limit tones have. Dave Weisner made cool bass sounds.  

Okay. How would a hammer-on sound be programmed in, say, a PX-5S or PX-560, which both have a better Hex Layer implementation than an XW but do not have, AFAIK, any hammer-on samples? 

[XW-Addict]

3 hours ago, AlenK said:

Okay. How would a hammer-on sound be programmed in, say, a PX-5S or PX-560, which both have a better Hex Layer implementation than an XW but do not have, AFAIK, any hammer-on samples? 

It might not needed be hammer-on samples per se if you got synthesis. For special purpose instrument it would be nice to have but that is workstation range keyboard. And I'll bet even the popular sold WK-7600 doesn't have that. 

 

PX-5S and PX-560 every sample is a wave sound and has certain properties that can be used,  if there are no samples fitting to an instruments musical behavior one can approximate those with wave sound within both instruments. That is what synthesis is for its not only for manipulating synth sounds like pulse , sine and other sampled instrument to just layer on top of each other like wow. It would be a waste of an instrument to not look at it as such one can purpose it in anyway u want . One of the reason for me to look and ask for expanded capabilities like better more filter , dsp - chains, eg, step-lfo , holds etc because the tech has great sounds, fine synthesis to open up ones creativity creating emulating the missing parts for an performance. 

 

Thrills and triple strikes thus fast play is the magic which i keep in mind cause I'm no guitar player and I once saw how a piano player played two note interval to get an modulation. If possible playing two notes like that an hammer on is also possible , On a synth you can cheat with  Key -off , velocity ,  filter envelope and . 

 

Two notes three tones, The first tone the note pressure mustn't die the transient attack has to stay so you don't want the amp envelope changed, 

however the second tone has to get plucked quickly and balanced in the transient when you hit that note it shouldn't bounce it need to get locked in harmonious. There what the second tone is for this one plucked should fall in balanced with the transient attack of the first tone level so it has to be filter response for this one where it has to lock into the first tone , the filter has to be set on the same length as the transient attack of the first tone, but there a problem surfacing cause you don't get that hammer-on effect because it will sounds to harmonious like a dyad, So you want to mask this long enough to hide overlap of two separate tone. that where the third tone is for.

 

This Third is the key-off this tone is when the first tone is struck and softly plucked by the second tone filter response only the second 

tone when played  figural speaking struck the second note by velocity response while transient attack still continue cause the first note has to continue until the moment the key is released .

this triggers a key-off by  the third tone which is programmed short on the amp level but with high filter envelope response as an off tone

Meaning  this third is a short -off version of the first tone  but with filter envelope response to match the second tone filter envelope. 

 

 

The velocity level has to be as such,  hammer on is playing fast without plucking a snare full on a second time like the first one has been done. 

the first Tone pluck has to be played at full range with out losing its transient attack, The second tone has to be locked in without getting bend it has 

to stay balanced with the first pluck that when filter response comes in at the point it can lock into the first tone transient. The third tone is when this

second tone get released it twangs a little at the same level of the second tone filter response level like it left after the second note thus both exposed as 

a nice harmonic twang end. Both second and third tone should play at the same velocity level to pull that off. So I guess the first tone has to be a lower 

velocity level and second and third note at highest velocity. This is when the modulation comes at play with two notes just like how I saw it done. :). 

 

I've used some principle methods that are much related as and from layering with hexlayers.  I agree totally that the implantation on the PX560 and 

PX5S are far better. Tone edit on the XW is limited actually its all put in solo synth, XW tone not a true ADSR compared with the PX. 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by XW-Addict

[AlenK]

Thanks for the detailed answer. There's a lot to unpack there. I will have to study it more carefully. In the meantime, do you have any audio examples of those techniques? 

Edited September 7, 2021 by AlenK

[AlenK]

For an example of pretty good slap-bass emulation - but by no means complete or comprehensive - there is Bass Slapper: 

 

 

I actually have this. The sample set (1 GB or 4.9 GB) for this one instrument alone dwarfs the entire sample waveform set in any Casio keyboard. So, I don't _need_ to try to emulate slap bass on a Casio keyboard. But the challenge is intriguing. 

[XW-Addict]

On 9/8/2021 at 12:23 AM, AlenK said:

Thanks for the detailed answer. There's a lot to unpack there. I will have to study it more carefully. In the meantime, do you have any audio examples of those techniques? 

I have projects that I've ranted a while back about , Can't do though at the moment or coming weeks. Its an interesting project but I got to finish the other ones I have little or no time, I was pondering about it some more the solo-synth is basically a monophonic hexlayer it could do it as well but with legato. 

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by XW-Addict
Text Correction Bot Annoying Me -_-