PX-S3000 keybed into a PX-5S?

[pax-eterna]

My old PX-5S keybed is so noisy now it is not fun to play (unless audio is very loud haha) so I was wondering if I can find a used PX-S3000 (or 1000) and swap the keybeds over to the PX-5? Reason is I still would need the MIDI capability of the 5S. The S3000 is not quite the same really.

 

They seem to have the same specs, but as always the devil is in the detail so I thought I would ask here and see if any Casio gurus could chime in with an opinion.

[Joe Muscara]

Nope, the action of the new PX-S line is different than the older PX models. Hence the S.  I guess there is a chance that they use the same connector, and with some industrious work you might be able to mount the PX-S action in the PX-5S chassis, but I doubt it's a simple swap if it's possible at all.

 

OTOH, a PX-160, 360, 560, CGP-700, and possibly the PX-x50 models should all be the same action and you're more likely to find a donor from one of those than a newer PX-S.

 

Oh, and also, the Grand Hybrid uses the same connector too. I've seen someone use that action to play a PX-5S engine.  If they want to reply here I'll let them do it themselves.

[Jokeyman123]

If you are ambitious enough-you might want to consider modding the key assembly like I did for the 350-has an identical keyboard assembly-I've studied the construction of both and was able to make a huge improvement in eliminating mechanical key noise in mine-which happens almost entirely due to the felt cushions being compressed-both the upper and lower felts compress over time and now the fulcrums are closer to hitting on the plastic frames the felt strips are mounted on. I just did an extensive felt mod to one of my Alesis Fusions for this reason-which has a much heavier Fatar TP40 action-and also had become too noisy for my taste-not unique to Casio-if you were to shop around for other brands-study their respective user groups-you will find, almost all the other majors end up with this problem in time, even the most costly workstations. I believe the newer PX series has improved on the amount of felt used to quiet the keys, not so simple a re-design, as any even slight change in the geometry of how the key swings feels huge when you play, has to be done just right. I am pretty sure, the front to back difference between the PX5s and PX3000 key assembly will not be the same, since the entire hammer mechanism has been re-designed. I don't think there are too many PX3000s that are worth cannibalizing just for the key mechanism! I would look at all the used parts vendors-see if you can get some eyeball views of the parts for each and compare physical dimensions, before  trying to find a complete possibly foobared PX-S3000 to destroy. There may be a parts vendor that has a key assembly-I am pretty sure Casio will not sell a part like this to anyone but an OEM repair shop.

[pax-eterna]

Thanks guys.

 

@Jokeyman123 yes I tend to agree that Casio would not sell me a replacement keybed for the PX-5 (although I also doubt if any even exist anymore).

 

Ok, I might have to offload the PX for the best price I can get and look at alternatives.

 

Again, my thanks.

[Jokeyman123]

You are welcome. The 560 has been fine, no problems like this. Tough call-even the other majors-with lightweight designs, are using cheaper key assemblies i wouldn't think are much of an improvement over the Casios. I discovered for example-the newest Kurzweil PC4, in their infinite wisdom decided to dumb down the key mechanism to a very plasticky-looking Medeli key assembly which from what I can find out-I'd be surprised it lasts a year with steady playing. And this thing costs more than double the cost of a 560. Roland DS-88 looks nice, but when I checked out its specs, it offers less than the Casio. Not trying to be a fanboy, but apparently the majors have been forced to go lightweight to compete with Casio, and may not even have as many features/build quality. I looked up the inside of the Medeli weighted action piano for example-and was shocked to see-the weighted keys use a flexible plastic endpiece as part of the action-rather than a solid design with a mechanical hinge/spring! same design as the non-weighted Casio WK/CTK/CTX keys. In a non-weighted design, this works fine. but a weighted key? I think the Kurzweil PC4 is using the same key assembly. I'll stick with the 560/350 Casios. even my old weighted PX575 is a very solid design, more like the older CDP series.

[pax-eterna]

Yes I did like the -560 and in fact about 9 months cast around for one down here...none available.

[Joe Muscara]

18 hours ago, pax-eterna said:

replacement keybed for the PX-5 (although I also doubt if any even exist anymore

I would guess otherwise. Since this action exists in numerous Casio models, there probably are replacements in the service chain or whatever they do. Whether you can buy one directly is another matter, but I would be surprised if a tech were unable to get a replacement if they needed it. The PX-5S, PX-560, and PX-360 are still listed as products on casiomusicgear.com, so they are considered "current." I would expect to be able to get them fixed for a while after they are no longer current.

[pax-eterna]

3 hours ago, Joe Muscara said:

I would guess otherwise. Since this action exists in numerous Casio models, there probably are replacements in the service chain or whatever they do. Whether you can buy one directly is another matter, but I would be surprised if a tech were unable to get a replacement if they needed it. The PX-5S, PX-560, and PX-360 are still listed as products on casiomusicgear.com, so they are considered "current." I would expect to be able to get them fixed for a while after they are no longer current.

 

Thanks Joe. Yes I have since learned from Casio Australia that they are obtainable. $650 Now I need to decide if I want to spend that or put it toward, possibly, the new Numa X Piano from Studiologic. Trouble with those is I have heard that first shipments are still way behind (COVID and supply chain issues) and that even in the US it will be at least mid February 2022 before units start to arrive. Which means (usually) even later for Oz,

[Joe Muscara]

Maybe see if there's a used model I previously mentioned that's in good shape, and transplant the action from that into your PX-5S?

[Jokeyman123]

Make sure you do your homework if you buy a Numa or any other 88-key weighted controller-some of these might still have the notoriously defective Fatar TP keys that can exhibit a tremendous velocity discrepancy from black to white keys-at least 20-30 steps difference, its significant. I thought only the older weighed keyboards had this problem, but apparently it still crops up in brand new instruments. Study the user groups, see what other players are saying before you get stuck. I know, I've done way too much research already about this, having run across it in several groups online, and owning one like this. Seems to be only the Fatar TP40 versions that are in many weighted workstations and controllers.

 

One seller on e**** was selling off parts to a cannibalized PX-560-I bought the 3-knob control board as a spare. He had the entire key assembly in parts, but now he has only the contact board assembly so Joe is right-parts will show up, just have to dig around. And a bit of good news-I just got an email from Casio and they are selling-at list price-any of the available Casios on their website with free shipping. I was pleasantly surprised, this still included a few of the older Casios in the CTK/WK categories as well as all the CTX and newest CDP. In this day and age, good to see there is still inventory.

[pax-eterna]

Cool, thanks jokeyman   Pretty sure we cannot buy from the US site, and in Oz I think their dealer/distributor agreements prevent direct sales, but I'll have a look anyway.

Edited December 10, 2021 by pax-eterna

[anotherscott]

On 12/9/2021 at 11:25 AM, pax-eterna said:

 

Thanks Joe. Yes I have since learned from Casio Australia that they are obtainable. $650

There would seem to be a few options. One option, as Joe Muscara mentioned, is to find something like a like-new PX-150 or PX-160 and scavenge from there... I don't know Australian prices, but I suspect you might be able to find that for less than $650. But if you are mechanically oriented enough to have even been thinking about opening up your board and putting a replacement action into your PX-5S, you are probably mechanical enough to open up your board and quiet down the your existing action with felt as Jokeyman 123 discussed. He talked about modding an action that was inherently noisy, but it sounds like yours was okay but just got noisier over time, which should be a simpler thing to address (restoring it to how it was originally, rather than trying to make it better than it was originally), even though the basic process would be the same. Another option could be to bring the board to a service center, who can probably replace the felt to quiet it down to how it was originally, for a lot less money than putting in an entire $650 replacement action.

 

One more thought... even if you bit the bullet and bought that $650 action as a replacement part, I would not assume that necessarily includes the felt parts where things hit, those could conceivably be different parts, so it's not impossible that you could install that new action and still have the same problem.

[pax-eterna]

thanks, but it is not just the noise. The sideways movement of the keys has become excessive as well. I mean I may not even go ahead and simply sell it off, and look at something else...haha, might even strip it of the keybed reduce the size (front to back) and add it to another keybed via MIDI, in a modded casing...who knows. Limited only by imagination

[Jokeyman123]

You know, Pax, that may not be such an outrageous idea.

 

I've mentioned in another post somewhere I've come across a few custom designs-where the designer took a small controller-such as an Arturia Keystep or similar-and a modular keyless synth such as the Behringer clones-and created an entirely unique wood cabinet and installed both in that cabinet. But the these "entrepeneurs" are charging 3-5000 dollars US for an item that at best cost them 4-500 dollars, some wood and carpentry skills.

 

Technically-the question has to be-what is the  functional difference regarding directly connecting a keyboard controller to a different operating system via midi vs. the hardware cables connected directly to the mainboard-I am not sure. There must be some advantage to a directly-scanned key assembly directly connected to a mainboard, but maybe not. I know some have already tested this by simply disconnecting the key assembly from the mainboard, and operating the keyboard from the midi connection and it works. I just don't know how this might possibly slow down the keyboard's response, or possibly eliminate other functions needed by that mainboard connection. 

 

Considering how mid functionality has evolved over the years, how just about every function in a DAW can be directly controlled from a controller keyboard, i don't see why you couldn't custom-design your own. As long as whatever you gut from your keyboard controller retains its functional electronics directly (or indirectly) needed by the midi in/out ports-and not USB, would have to be midi DIN due to needing an intermediary "host" device if you come out the USB port to the other devices' midi DIN port. I would try to find the "dumbest" 88-key controller I could find-one without any hardware controls, sliders, knobs as that would complicate your mod. Maybe one of the older CDPs such as the CDP130 or similar-even an older PX100 or so-I've owned 2-3-the weighted actions on these-you will lose the tri-sensor action-but these play really well, very sturdy quiet actions. I gave my brother a PX-110 and I play it when I'm there-this still feels really nice as a piano. and these have midi din out ports.

 

The other problem I see, not so easily solved-power supplies. Since each unit (the controller and the PX5S or other) use a dedicated power supply, with probably different voltage and amp requirements-unless you keep both supplies intact, you would have to re-design a new power supply capable of powering both the controller and the PX5S, or try to power both with one power supply-probably not a good idea as most supplies are designed to pretty strict tolerances as to how much overhead-how much additional voltage and amperage these can handle without overheating-and likewise the PX5S and controller probably do not want to see any additional drain on their supplies in order to function properly. But you might be able to tap off required voltages since you will not be powering the original key assembly from its original supply-might work. Having repaired and modified many keyboard enclosures-there would be some challenges but if you are handy with wood-working or plastics-might not be too difficult. make sure you install shielding and ground connections for everything-I can tell you this is an area that manufacturers sometimes short-change a design, and considering how much EMF and RFI a typical mainboard puts out, there is a reason you see alot of ground connections to a metal-based keyboard-or not. and a plastic cabinet-especially if you have computers or other electronics (digital recorders, modules) it could cause hum and interference between devices if there isn't some kind of shielding which often lately there isn't.  Cheapness as Frank Zappa used to say-but he was referring to science fiction movies.

 

If you could kludge one to the other-keep both supplies intact in the same cabinet-and live with having 2 AC power plugs to get this new "hybrid" keyboard to work,  I'd have done this already--for example to mod my XW to an 88-key controller but with a multi-rack keyboard setup, it is much easier just to have stacked keyboards connected with midi din cables. I found an old Korg SP-500 which although the acoustic pianos are pretty nice considering how old this is, it does not compare to the PX560 acoustics-but it has a beautiful graded, weighted "RH2" action. i connect it to the px560 or XW-P1-and presto, all the functions of those are now playable from the Korg-double manual Hammond, hoo-haa! But with weighted keyboards, well I can do it but my fingers are a little sausage-like.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Jokeyman123

[pax-eterna]

Yes interesting post Jokey....one thing I have found is that the USB port (front panel) CAN supply power to an external device. I use it to power the Midi Expression iO (which gives me expression pedal and "half-pedaling" for the sustain pedal) works really well. I only use that as an example that sometimes things work in a manner that one would not expect. I tried that as the USB spec (and Casio built the PX within spec for both USB and MIDI afaics) is standard, it port SHOULD provide +/- 5v and it turned out it did. Or thereabouts and certainly enough to run the device.

 

I have noticed over the years that a lot of keyboards use the same ribbon cable and clamp connectors for the keybeds connection to the mobos as well...not saying they are the same just they all use the same method. As for MIDI, there may be a slight timing difference between using midi or the ribbon cable, but I daresay noticeable only on the test bench and not in real-time.

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by pax-eterna

[pax-eterna]

On 12/9/2021 at 12:01 AM, Jokeyman123 said:

If you are ambitious enough-you might want to consider modding the key assembly like I did for the 350-has an identical keyboard assembly-I've studied the construction of both and was able to make a huge improvement in eliminating mechanical key noise in mine-which happens almost entirely due to the felt cushions being compressed-both the upper and lower felts compress over time and now the fulcrums are closer to hitting on the plastic frames the felt strips are mounted on. I just did an extensive felt mod to one of my Alesis Fusions for this reason-which has a much heavier Fatar TP40 action-and also had become too noisy for my taste-not unique to Casio-if you were to shop around for other brands-study their respective user groups-you will find, almost all the other majors end up with this problem in time, even the most costly workstations. I believe the newer PX series has improved on the amount of felt used to quiet the keys, not so simple a re-design, as any even slight change in the geometry of how the key swings feels huge when you play, has to be done just right. I am pretty sure, the front to back difference between the PX5s and PX3000 key assembly will not be the same, since the entire hammer mechanism has been re-designed. I don't think there are too many PX3000s that are worth cannibalizing just for the key mechanism! I would look at all the used parts vendors-see if you can get some eyeball views of the parts for each and compare physical dimensions, before  trying to find a complete possibly foobared PX-S3000 to destroy. There may be a parts vendor that has a key assembly-I am pretty sure Casio will not sell a part like this to anyone but an OEM repair shop.

 

Would you happen to have a link handy for where you posted info on doing this? I am also thinking of re-spraying the PX to another colour (can be done a guy at another forum did it ) so maybe I can kill two objectives in the one opening session

[Jokeyman123]

Here you go-I'm glad this group saves all the content-I wonder the servers don't burst! Plus, I forget my own work sometimes! Often I google to find my own old posts-it usually works quite well. I remembered what I called this, typed it in google, and there it was at the top of the hits. Happy New Year!

[pax-eterna]

4 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

Here you go-I'm glad this group saves all the content-I wonder the servers don't burst! Plus, I forget my own work sometimes! Often I google to find my own old posts-it usually works quite well. I remembered what I called this, typed it in google, and there it was at the top of the hits. Happy New Year!

 

Excellent, thanks!

[anotherscott]

On 12/30/2021 at 7:31 AM, Jokeyman123 said:

Technically-the question has to be-what is the  functional difference regarding directly connecting a keyboard controller to a different operating system via midi vs. the hardware cables connected directly to the mainboard-I am not sure. There must be some advantage to a directly-scanned key assembly directly connected to a mainboard, but maybe not. I know some have already tested this by simply disconnecting the key assembly from the mainboard, and operating the keyboard from the midi connection and it works. I just don't know how this might possibly slow down the keyboard's response, or possibly eliminate other functions needed by that mainboard connection. 

 

No need to open a board or disconnect any internals... you could test this by engaging the "Local Off" function, and running a MIDI cable from the board's 5-pin MIDI Out back to its MIDI In.

 

It's an interesting question as to whether "direct scanning" offers advantages over MIDI... I think boards have actually been designed both ways. My understanding is that Yamahas like Montage/MODX and their Motif-based predecessors use MIDI even internally for their keys, but that other boards may work differently.