Issue on sliders/knobs for parameter named "Manual" of DSPs named “Phaser” and “Auto Pan”

[Justin Time]

In edit mode, the values for the DSP parameter "Manual" (Phaser and Auto Pan) have a range between -64 and +63, what I call the “parameter scale” in this text.

If the DSP parameter Manual is assigned to a slider (or knob), so that you can control its value while making music, the slider can be set to the range between min-value 0 and max-value 127 (I call it the “slider scale”), which usually reflects the full scale of the assigned parameter, i.e. slider value 0 should represent "Manual" value -64 at the lower end of the scales (or lowest slider position) and 127 should represent +63 at the upper end of the scales (or highest slider position).

If I look at the display of my PS-5X (firmware version 1.13) showing the changing parameter value, when the slider is used, this scale mapping seems to apply. But the effective parameter value is different if I display the DSP in edit mode.

The effective scale mapping between slider and parameter that I experience looks like this:

(lower end)|   0,     1,.. 63,   64,   65,   66,.. 126, 127|(upper end of the slider scale)

(lower end)| 63,  63,.. 63, -64, -63, -62,..    -2,   -1|(upper end of parameter scale)

When the assigned slider is used, the display shows changing values as follows:

(lower end)|-64, -63,..  -1,    0,   1,      2,..    62,   63|(upper end).

The displayed value pretends the scale mapping of slider and parameter to be correctly, but it is not, and if you try, you can hear it, of cause, especially when the parameter jumps from value 63 to -64 while the slider is moved over middle position.

 

As a result, while playing I cannot manipulate the DSP parameter “Manual” with sliders or knobs for values between 0 and 62.

I do not refer to the special behavior for Knob2 within edit mode, which works properly for the whole scale range of the DSP parameter “Manual”, i.e. in edit mode the displayed value doesn’t lie to you (and me;).

Can you please provide tips, how I could fix this issue? Thanks a lot!

[jaspeter]

There must be a glitch in the Matrix, because I could have sworn Brad responded to this question with an answer that was new to me. But when I came back too comment how useful I found it, the answer was gone.  Maybe he needed to edit it or something... ?

[Brad Saucier]

Yes, I'm double checking what he wrote using my PX-5S.  We're still dealing with offset parameters, but I want to make sure I understand his post fully.

[Brad Saucier]

Okay, to repost some of what I wrote before, -64 to +63 is called an offset parameter.  Zero represents no change to the original parameter. 0-127 is absolute.   The phaser DSP effect "manual" parameter in the edit menu is the offset type.  In this case, the slider can't control the full range.  You can set your slider to min 64 and max 127.  This will give you control over the lower half of the offset range.  

[Justin Time]

Thank you, Brad. I wasn't aware about offset parameters.

1. If I understood correctly, the offset is relative to a starting point (you called it original parameter) and I cannot change the starting point in order to access to the upper half of "manual" with a slider, can I?
2. I can adjust a fixed offset-value for "manual" higher than 0 (accessing to the upper half of "manual") using the DSP edit menu, can't I?

If I use Knob2 to edit the value of "manual", there is neither a value-jumb to be heart (playing notes in parallel) nor to be seen when passing the middle position. Editing with Knob2 is different than to control the parameter afterwards with a (even the same) knob or slider. This conceptual distinction is just a bit hard to understand, but I can accept if I have to.

[Brad Saucier]

Yes, it works a little differently when using knob 2 to as the entry method during editing.  

 

1.  Unfortunately I'm not aware of a way to do that.

2. Again, no.

 

 

[Choppin]

Hi,

 

Hmmm try the flanger feedback and the chorus feedback.  These also have a -64 to +63 range.   If they can't be adjusted in real time correctly (not edit mode) then that should warrant a fix from Casio I would think.   That's an actual glitch in the programming as opposed to a "nice to have" request.  I tested the Phaser Manual using the direct Slider assignment to Manual and even using NRPN entries.  I montiored the MIDI and saw that the slider transmitted 0-127 but the adjustment to the parameter on the PX-5s only ranged 0 to -64 then jumped to +63.  Even the display window on the PX-5s reads -64 to +63 when the slider is moved but the actual adjustment to the parameter neglects 0 to +62.

 

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Choppin

[Justin Time]

Yes, I tried flanger feedback and the chorus feedback, and it seems to be the same issue as for phaser manual and auto pan manual. Probably, all DSP parameter with -64 to +63 range are impacted from the same "glitch".

[Choppin]

Brad, is this  behavior that can be communicated to Casio or Mike?  Do you think there would be any chance of fix?

[Brad Saucier]

I don't believe this is something Casio would revisit at this point.  I don't recall anyone ever mentioning this topic on the forums or FB group.   

[jaspeter]

I just ran into this same issue while trying to use the "Wah Depth" parameter of the Distortion DSP.

 

... and I found a solution!

 

I noticed in the MIDI Implementation Manual that the DSP parameters are controllable by NRPNs, which the PX-5S can assign to sliders. 

 

To do this, you make sure your Zone has the appropriate DSP already selected.  Then, edit the Slider CC as you normally would, but instead of choosing "Wah Depth", choose NRPN. Now change the MSB value to 035.  The LSB value determines which DSP parameter will be adjusted. In my case, "Wah Depth" corresponds to an LSB value of 004.  The LSB for "Phaser Manual" is 001 (with the Phaser DSP selected), or 003 for "Auto Pan Manual" (with Auto Pan DSP selected).  The MSB value stays at 035.

 

I suspect Casio was going to release the PX-5S with NRPNs as the only way to change controllers, but then decided that it would be more usable with the DSP parameters hard-coded into the CC menu (which is true!) But a mistake was made in programming the relative CC ranges. This is completely speculation, but at least the NRPNs work as intended!

 

I hope it works for you!

[Brad Saucier]

Oh excellent!  Good catch! 

[Mike Martin]

16 hours ago, jaspeter said:

To do this, you make sure your Zone has the appropriate DSP already selected.  Then, edit the Slider CC as you normally would, but instead of choosing "Wah Depth", choose NRPN. Now change the MSB value to 035.  The LSB value determines which DSP parameter will be adjusted. In my case, "Wah Depth" corresponds to an LSB value of 004.  The LSB for "Phaser Manual" is 001 (with the Phaser DSP selected), or 003 for "Auto Pan Manual" (with Auto Pan DSP selected).  The MSB value stays at 035.

 

I suspect Casio was going to release the PX-5S with NRPNs as the only way to change controllers, but then decided that it would be more usable with the DSP parameters hard-coded into the CC menu (which is true!) But a mistake was made in programming the relative CC ranges. This is completely speculation, but at least the NRPNs work as intended!

 

I hope it works for you!

 

Huge thanks for finding this. I learned something new today. 

[jaspeter]

I just reread this thread and Choppin mentions trying the NRPNs but it not working. The implementation for NRPNs is a little ambiguous in the manual, so it might have just been that. For the record, though, I think Choppin probably beat me to it.