Rudolph R-N R Posted January 7, 2023 Share Posted January 7, 2023 (edited) Thinking out loud here, would appreciate your thoughts given my needs! And while I did due diligence, I’m not 100% on all the comparisons made. These days I’m solidly in the weighted piano playing realm, spending most of my time with the excellent Kawai ES920- the sounds, the keybed, the built-in speakers- all top notch, great satisfaction achieved! For me there’s no substitute for weighted action for most of my playing / practicing. HOWEVER: -some sounds, like organ, synth, etc., are better played with unweighted / semi-weighted boards - a lighter, cheaper board is more convenient and not as worrisome as taking a heavier, pricier board to parties/jam sessions - having a 2 board setup at home is sweet: bottom board weighted, top board: semi-weighted / unweighted - the ES920 is super limited: only 2 sounds at once, very little editing possible, and only 39 sounds (!) - with limited funds I would be better off just keeping the X5000 Given all that…. Pros of the X5000: - 100 slots for saving/naming User Tones! Love this! > EW425: no User Tones. - 8 registration buttons! This is super useful, I like to have my registrations grouped together, like 8 prepared piano tones in the first bank, 8 EPs in the 2d, etc. > EW425 has 4 registration buttons - 128 registrations total! > EW425: 32 total. That’s just ridiculous, considering you’ve got 800 sounds to work with - 2 pedal jacks, including 1 for expression > EW425: 1 pedal jack. Why oh why when making an arranger have only 1? - 4 sounds to work with > EW425 only has 2 upper, 1 lower- - Portamento!!! > EW425: no Pros of the EW425: - 2 pre-defined mod knobs!!!! Yes yes and Yes! > X5000 has a mod button - 76 keys!!! Hell yah. - Battery capability (6 D cells), rechargeable Ni-Mh D batteries/charger costs about $50 > X5000, no battery - Keybed: presumably better (same as new PSR E-473), almost anything has got to be better than the noisy, hard-to-control-dynamics keybed of the X5000, though my WK7600, over time, was the absolute worst, made me into a sloppy player, some really bad keybeds can do that - USB audio/MIDI interface built-in!!!! iPad and notebook sounds would be a slam dunk > X5000: only USB MIDI, connecting to my iPad for sounds would require a $40-50 USB to MIDI conversion box - Microphone input is useable! > X5000 is the worst, I’ve gotten it to work but it suffers from lack of volume and requires particular microphone cables; big fail by Casio, this is not rocket science - Microphone control button: effects / no effects / off > X5000: no top panel control - A real cutoff filter > X5000: so weird, only the sweep from 64 to 0 works, from 64 to 128 it does next to nothing. Big bummer, with so few sound-editing tools, the cutoff is very handy for sharpening or mellowing out a Tone - 6 Front panel buttons to play/not play accompaniment: Rhythms/Bs/Chord parts. > X5000: 1 button; not fully up to speed on this, but it seems obvious that while using auto-accompaniment I’d have 6 buttons vs 1 for bringing in or out the various accompaniment parts As you can tell, I’m leaning towards the EW425, mostly cause of the 76 keys, built-in USB interface, useable microphone input. But as i get back into the X5000 after not playing it for the better part of a year, I’m finding myself enjoying it. For the things I do, the editing process is not that bad, and the lousy keybed is still serviceable, I can still enjoy myself with the sounds. Even after selling the X5000 It’d cost me $250-300 to buy the EW425 (rechargeables, case?, etc.), and on my retired money, that’s a factor. The thing I’m most curious about (besides the keybed quality) is the difference between these two board for the quality of sounds. I’ve got decent headphones, the BeyerDynamic DT 990, open back, so I don’t have to rely on the speakers to judge the sounds. In the bad old days of poor sound quality with these cheaper boards, layering sounds was one of the only ways to get a decent full-sounding patch.. As I layer up Tones with the X5000 I achieve some degree of satisfaction, but the real test is a single Tone being able to sound great on its own with no layer needed, and so far I’d say: Sound Quality (SQ): Pianos 6-7/10 SQ: EPs: 3/10 SQ: Organs 7/10 But all of these are preliminary. Haven’t messed with the Leslie effect, or tried modding the EPs much with DSP, but so far the EPs are incredibly lackluster, the EPWah is the only one that comes close to being decent. I have no problem with the piano tones, and without modification, the organ tones have been really fun. Haven’t dug into woodwinds/brass/orchestral/pads/synth very much. So the jury is still deliberating on that, esp since I don’t have the EW425, it’s on back-order. I’ll probably buy it from a local GC, which would give me 45 days to compare/contrast the two. For those of you with relatively newer PSR E and PSR EW Yamahas, how would you compare the keybed and sound quality to the X3000/5000? It’s all subjective, but yet it’s not. I remember how put off I was by the lousy SQ of my WK7600, and was pleased with the obvious jump in SQ with the CT-X700 and X5000. But as I dig deeper, I’m finding very few of the X5000 sounds having the wow quality that I’ve experienced with my Korg PA 1000 (before I sold it). It’s 4-5 times more expensive, but the point is that SQ has gotten progressively better over time and SQ is what inspires me as a musician. And when SQ is not dramatically great, it takes a lot more time to distinguish the fantastic from the mostly excellent from the OK/good to the meh. So I don’t take these evaluations lightly, it’s as important as the keybed and finger to ear connection as far as achieving playing satisfaction! As you can tell, I’m kind of obsessed with all this- it’s fun to evaluate boards, esp at such similar price points. Your opinions welcome! And please, this is not a slam on Casio, I’ve owned a handful of them, including the MZ-X500, and gravitate towards them for their bang-for-buck offerings. I have been sorely disappointed with the X5000 though with the hardly-functioning microphone input, the non-performing cutoff filter, and the barely-adequate keybed, so some criticism there for sure. Edited January 8, 2023 by Randelph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Alex Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 If you're SOLELY into piano playback, Then EW425 has far better piano sound. It should be noted that devices are either for general playback, or piano-oriented - full scale, weighted hammer action and so on. In case you want it all and without computer - then buy some high end fatar midi keyboard and stand alone midi module.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Saucier Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 On 1/7/2023 at 3:59 PM, Randelph said: A real cutoff filter > X5000: so weird, only the sweep from 64 to 0 works, from 64 to 128 it does next to nothing. Big bummer, with so few sound-editing tools, the cutoff is very handy for sharpening or mellowing out a Tone Each preset tone has different levels of cutoff programmed into them. This preset value is not displayed for user editing. Rather, an offset control is displayed. The offset control allows us to add or subtract from the preset level. This is why it starts at "zero" (64). Various types of filters are used by the CT-X5000. One of three main types can be present in a tone; low pass, high pass, and band pass. The filter can also be one of several different slopes. Most preset tones utilize low pass filters with cutoff levels already near max. The full positive range is usually not noticable in those cases, but the negative range is. The positive range is more noticable when high pass or band pass filters are present. On models like the MZ-X500, PX-5S and PX-560, hex layer tone editing gives us absolute control over all of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolph R-N R Posted January 9, 2023 Author Share Posted January 9, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Brad Saucier said: Each preset tone has different levels of cutoff programmed into them. This preset value is not displayed for user editing. Rather, an offset control is displayed. The offset control allows us to add or subtract from the preset level. This is why it starts at zero. Various types of filters are used by the CT-X5000. One of three main types can be present in a tone; low pass, high pass, and band pass. The filter can also be one of several different slopes. Most preset tones utilize low pass filters with cutoff levels already near max. The full positive range is usually not noticable in those cases, but the negative range is. The positive range is more noticable when high pass or band pass filters are present. On models like the MZ-X500, PX-5S and PX-560, hex layer tone editing gives us absolute control over all of this. Brad, Thanks, that helps explain it a bit. However, having used cutoff filters on at least a dozen boards I have owned over time, including the MZ-X500, I have never seen one exhibit this behavior. And to my ears, all the tones I have tried to modify with the cutoff filter on the X5000 sounds like it is truly at 64, the middle of the range. Cutoff filters can get very edgy as you get to the extreme of its range. This feels like another fail for this board, like the microphone input, just not engineered well, a feature that is all but useless. Whether it’s high pass or band pass, the expectation is that it’ll give you a quick and simple but invaluable tool for getting a sound to be more mellow or edgy, and it fails. Why wouldn’t they design it to be effective, esp with so few other editing tools? Not taking a dump on this model- I’ve been enjoying it a lot as I create 4 voice registrations. The EW425 does NOT have User Tones, and only has 3 voices to work with. Have been very pleasantly surprised at how full sounding having 2 voices can be for upper and lower. Every board has its up sides and down sides. No matter the explanation, for my uses this board does not have a useful implementation of the cutoff filter, have not once used it to mellow out a sound. Hopefully the next board will not have this shortcoming. Edited January 10, 2023 by Randelph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolph R-N R Posted January 10, 2023 Author Share Posted January 10, 2023 (edited) 16 hours ago, Just Alex said: If you're SOLELY into piano playback, Then EW425 has far better piano sound. It should be noted that devices are either for general playback, or piano-oriented - full scale, weighted hammer action and so on. In case you want it all and without computer - then buy some high end fatar midi keyboard and stand alone midi module.... Just Alex, Hmmm…. Thanks for the feedback about the sound quality of the EW425 piano. Do you have one? The other equally important question is how well does the EW425 play piano? I’m mostly OK with the Casio piano tone, to my ears the Stage Piano sounds clear and powerful up and down the keys. It’s the keybed that hampers my enjoyment somewhat. MIDI keyboard- tempting! You can certainly get a quality unweighted/semi-weighted MIDI keyboard for less than the price of the X5000 and EW425, but having a module or having to always connect to an iPad/laptop, that’s not the user experience I like! I want it all- an under $500 keyboard that 1). Feels good under the fingers, 2). Has decent sounds and some degree of editing possible, AND 3). Can be easily connected to an iPad for more sounds. 5-10 years ago that was an impossible ask, nowadays Casio and Yamaha have gotten really close. At least features wise, I’m guessing the EW425 will come the closest to those high standards for me, but I imagine within a few years Casio will innovate their way to the next level. Keybeds improving? But overall, I think it’s next to impossible to design these budget keyboards, esp with auto-accompaniment and sequencing capabilities. Trying to accommodate sooooo many features, it usually comes down to: WHAT IS THE FOCUS? Is it primarily for the person who values the accompaniment part of the board? For the person, like me who is all about creating powerful registrations for maximum and most dramatic sound quality? For the person trying to sequence and record? There are only so many buttons for easy access to features that these budget boards can afford to include. At some point I believe there will be more boards that are simple and user-friendly because the user interface is all about the sounds and perhaps buttons for the auto-accompaniment. Most of the accompaniment and sequencing and sampling will be done thru an iPad/laptop. In other words, a hybrid between a keyboard with it’s own sounds and a MIDI keyboard! Edited January 10, 2023 by Randelph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Saucier Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 This topic has been moved by request. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolph R-N R Posted January 10, 2023 Author Share Posted January 10, 2023 Thank you Brad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolph R-N R Posted January 10, 2023 Author Share Posted January 10, 2023 (edited) I had a chance tonight to play an EW473, the 61 note equivalent of the Yamaha PSR EW425.. Was thrilled to find the keybed was actually quite good, decent for piano which is usually the hardest sound to match a keybed with. However, upon testing the cutoff filter knob, I was really surprised to find that moving the knob from the center position to all the way cranked did not always yield the resonant filter sweep that tends to get edgy- there were a fair number of sounds that behaved like the X5000, that is, even cranking it made little difference in the sound. So maybe I’m wrong, maybe that is something I didn’t pay strict attention to with my other boards, but if so, I just don’t get it- it’s such a cool filter sweep, why wouldn’t it be setup like that for all sounds? I assume it’s the band pass filter that would be the most dramatic of these filters? I’m placing my order tomorrow for the EW425, so hopefully by the end of the month I’ll be able to compare these two keyboards. Have to say I’ve been having one fun evening after another creating 4 voice Registrations on the X5000 that are perfect for jamming out! Maybe keep both the EW425 and the X5000? That doesn’t seem practical, don’t have the room or the time for 3 keyboards. Regardless, still interested in peoples opinions about Yamaha sounds. The EPs were mostly stuff they’ve had around for years, 4 or 5 out of 10, I thought they’d be way better by now, but I’m not sure I heard all of them. And the Basses were also lackluster, at least the ones I tried. Oh well, at least it’s easy to use an iPad for more sounds. And then there’s the unlikely possibility (too expensive) to get the SX600, which would primarily be for the upgrade of sound quality. Hard to pass up 76 keys though! Edited January 10, 2023 by Randelph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Alex Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 Regarding the cutoff filter. It cuts off frequencies, but if there are no such frequencies in sample present, it can't cut off what is not existent What I mean. Say some sample has highest frequency of 5khz. And say cutoff filter operates from 1 to 10khz. So when you rotate it above 5khz, there will be no effect, because there are no frequencies to edit Regarding the EW series. I played it a bit in a store and find it quite pleasant, at least piano sound far superior that of X3000/5000. On the other hand, MZ-X500 has comparable quality (or even better!) sounding pianos and very pleasant keyboard feel, and I was able to buy it (store had last display unit remaining) for $500, but I don't think this will be available for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolph R-N R Posted January 10, 2023 Author Share Posted January 10, 2023 8 hours ago, Just Alex said: Regarding the cutoff filter. It cuts off frequencies, but if there are no such frequencies in sample present, it can't cut off what is not existent What I mean. Say some sample has highest frequency of 5khz. And say cutoff filter operates from 1 to 10khz. So when you rotate it above 5khz, there will be no effect, because there are no frequencies to edit Regarding the EW series. I played it a bit in a store and find it quite pleasant, at least piano sound far superior that of X3000/5000. On the other hand, MZ-X500 has comparable quality (or even better!) sounding pianos and very pleasant keyboard feel, and I was able to buy it (store had last display unit remaining) for $500, but I don't think this will be available for you. Yes, that makes sense about the cutoff filter, but as Brad said, there are at least 3 cutoffs: low/high/band pass. I would think the engineers programming this would choose the one that is the most dramatic/noticeable/sounding-like-a-freaking-cutoff filter! Hmmmm…. For $500 I imagine most of us would try to buy the MZ-X500! I got mine for $900, they usually sold for $1,100? I’d probably still have it if it wasn’t stolen! Really enjoyed that board, definite step up in many ways. Hex layers are a brilliant idea, but the implementation for editing was not sufficiently developed, took way longer to edit them than was necessary if they’d optimized it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Alex Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 Well, here MZ-X500 sell very poorly, no one even turned this unit ON for a long time, so they were selling it cheap, just to free up the space I was actually aiming for Korg Kross 2, they also had store display unit on sale, but someone bought it, so I had to go with MZ-X500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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