AlenK Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Recently I aquired one of these, a "discovery" board from ST Microelectronics. It feaures a 32-bit ARM processor running at 168MHz with 2Mbytes of Flash, a built-in FPU, DSP and graphics accelerator. The board has 8Mbytes of SDRAM, a motion sensor (accelerometer/gyroscope) and two USB ports. More to the point of this post, it also has a 2.4" QVGA (320x240) full-color, touch-sensitive LCD. You get all of that and yet the board sells for less than $30. (If you're thinking this has a lot of potential for home projects you might have, you're right!) Why do I mention it at all? Because even given that electronics manufacturers generally sell these kinds of boards at cost in order to promote design-in of their chips, it still means that the LCD display component has a very low cost. It turns out that the LCD probably costs $5 or less depending on the quantities (here's an example). This is typical of LCD displays nowadays. Even color models are very inexpensive. There are more examples here: www.buydisplay.com. Now, I wouldn't advocate a 2.4-inch LCD for a keyboard, despite the fact that the comparatively low-resolution LCD on the PX-5S is about the same size (as is the pixelated area of the LCD display on the XW synths). Something larger would be better. So how about a 4.3" 480x272 touch-enabled color LCD for under $10 in reasonable quantities? It's available. We don't really NEED color but nowadays the cost differential to get it is almost zero. You can thank smartphones for that. Although that resolution isn't even VGA level it would actually be quite usable on a keyboard and is less than half the cost of the 7-inch WVGA (800x480) LCD that you find on Korg's Krome, for example. So what am I driving at? Just that there are NO EXCUSES for Casio not to put better LCDs than the dinky low-res ones we're getting now on their professional keyboards (which can absorb the extra cost better than home models). If we expect better from Casio they'll deliver it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Null Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 While I don't entirely disagree with you Alen, let's not forget that it's a definitive fact of life that musical keyboard technology tends to lag the bleeding edge state of the art stuff by at least 10 to 15 years. 4 Gigs of RAM has been standard on computers for about 7 or 8 years now, but we are barely seeing anything priced below the $1500 mark in keyboards that has anything even close to 1 Gig. Likewise, USB ports have been around since the late 90's but they only started showing up on keyboards about 6 years ago. Considering each and every modern keyboard is virtually a handcrafted computer with a 100% custom OS you can't expect a small development team of a couple of dozen people to turn on a dime every time there's an advancement in hardware. Now if a giant like Microsoft or IBM started producing professional instruments that would be a different story, but in most cases a company is lucky to sell a few tens of thousands of their flagship models, and a keyboard is considered a record breaker if they sell 100,000 units. In a niche market like that, it's difficult to play catchup with technology given that the pro market is relatively quite small and fragmented. And in a way that's a good thing, as it still leaves room for newcomers and innovators to design and market breakthrough products. Gary 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlenK Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 It's true that PCs (e.g., laptops) are able to provide amounts of RAM, large LCD screens and other features that musical keyboard instruments at similar prices just can't touch. And you are right that the reason behind this is the comparative sizes of the markets. But by the same token the large size of the PC market and now especially the mobile market has driven the cost of these components way down for other applications. Being in the business of developing products with embedded processors from teams of a dozen or so people (sometimes less) I can assure you that what I am proposing above _is_ feasible for Casio, even in their limited market and production quantities. Adding a display like the example I described (with a ~$10 cost in purchase quantities of only 500) might add $50 to $100 to the retail price of a unit. I'm sure I speak for plenty of prospective customers who would not mind paying that slight premium one bit. We're talking professional keyboards here, not home units. As I said and continue to believe, there are no excuses. But that, of course, is just my (informed) opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jokeyman123 Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Cost-cutting aside, I agree with AlenK, a better display definitely adds to usability and attractiveness-invites the player to program, create etc. But please!!!!!!!!! Keep Microsoft away from music instruments!!!! If any of my keyboards had Windows as an OS, I'd have to resort to kazoo, jaws harp and a pair of bongos. And I've been troubleshooting computers since before DOS. Just imagine having to update security patches and bug-fixes whever your keyboard crashed, or worse morphed into a micro-tonal scale while you were playing you latest setlist, it hurts to even think about it! LOL, IMO etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Null Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 What it boils down to is what are your expectations from a $400 instrument? For a guitarist even the cheapest new Gibson Les Paul prices in at over $1000. If you want to see large format color touch screens then spend $1500 and buy a Korg Krome or spend $5000 for a Kronos. On sub $1000 keyboards touch screens are about as common as Unicorn teeth. :D Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Null Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Well you seem to have it all figured out. What's a guitar except for thousand year old technology involved in shaping a block of wood and hanging a few strings on it? What's involved in designing and bringing a new keyboard to market? Years of custom firmware development and debugging, innovative patents for new sound producing and sound shaping algorithms. Designing and producing and assembling over a thousand components and getting it out to market for under $400. And then designing and producing next year's model to keep up with the competition. So it should be dirt simple for you to create your own design, hire engineers and production staff to produce it and get it out to market for under $400 in under 6 months and put all the billion dollar keyboard companies out of business. I'm looking forward to seeing the results of your efforts :D Gary 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Null Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 BTW, if you expect to go the controller/computer/VST route, don't expect much in the way of quality from a $400 rig either. Netbooks are ridiculously underpowered for running even a single, much less multiple VSTs. And the build quality of a $200 controller will appall you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Null Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Virtually every MIDI and USB controller from the past 40 years can connect to a computer. If you look around you can find MIDI sequencing software, Patch Editors, Patch Librarians, Sequencers and VSTs and Samplers all from third party software developers that will work just fine with your particular MIDI/Computer setup. Why install a VGA Port, and an HDMI port nowadays and then rewrite the OS and add a USB Host for a keyboard and a mouse all at added cost for the end user, to duplicate a setup you can create with any $400 laptop? If you want to see what the state of the art in MIDI is these days, take a look at the Studioblade series. All available for a lousy $5000 startup cost, plus additional software and samples at extra cost. http://musiccomputing.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- T - Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 ctk7200user I can not believe this. This is now, at least the third thread on this forum where you have done nothing but bash Casio and the CTK-7200. I have already suggested that, if you hate Casio and the CTK-7200 so much, why do you not simply return the keyboard, get a refund, and go find something that suits you, if that is possible. I know, you consider yourself a DESIGN Professional who owes it to the world to save it from itself and expose Casio and all of their junk for what they are, but you seem to have ignored my response to your criticisms in the WK-7500 sub-forum and just migrated to here and start all over again. You are so busy bashing just about everything, I wonder where you expect to find the time to create your "studio album". You even started out on this forum criticizing it because you thought it needed to be customized FOR YOU. From what I have seen so far, I have to wonder what you are really doing here on this forum and what your real intent is. For others here, who might be wondering what I am referring to, see the following threads: http://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/topic/5154-bad-things-about-the-ctk-7200/ http://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/topic/370-wk7600-easy-way-to-save-and-play/ http://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/topic/4464-the-bad-things-about-the-wk-7500/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Null Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Face it Ted. Sooner or later a troll had to pop up in these forums just spoiling for a fight. It's as much a certainty as Godwin's Law ever was :D As for your summation, I agree. If he thinks he can produce a studio quality album with a CTK-7200 and an iPhone who am I to shatter his delusions? :D I've never heard him play but I'm willing to bet that a hundred scouts from everyone from Warner to Virgin are hot on his trail looking to sign him up to a lifetime contract :D But first I wanna be the first sucker angel to finance his crowdfunding attempt to produce the ultimate $400 synth on kickstarter.com :D Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- T - Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Sorry, Gary ! I know I should not have let him get under my skin, but when I am trying to help someone through a particularly sticky technical item, and they are frustrated and to the point of giving up and are questioning their wisdom of buying this keyboard in the first place, I not only have to get them through the technicals, but also have to try to keep their spirits up and convince them that they will get through it and eventually understand it, I certainly don't need some clown popping into the thread and doing his best to convince them that they have the biggest piece of worthless junk that they should never have bought to begin with, A N D . . . that is E X A C T L Y what happened in this case. I would have been much better off to have let him have his say, ignored his comments, and casually went on with my help. Will try to remember that in the future. Thanks for understanding ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 All thats required is a 'good design' a design that is ' strongly integrated' ...that and and perhaps an extra $50 chucked in the critical components bin, and even that probably isnt necasasary YOU KNOW WHATS MISSING ? the key element missing from sooo many keyboards, VGA OUT ! Add a $10 chip and you can plug in a 24 inch full HD full colour computer monitor......and these days you can pick up a second hand computer monitor for the price of big box a chocolates ...am i right ? of course i am ! A keyboard with VGA out needs to have a more serious video card, especially if you want to connect it to a HD monitor. And I don't see any logic in this, since there are data editors for almost every modern keyboard. Install it on your computer, connect your keyboard and voila - you have a HD monitor from which you can control your beloved keyboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlenK Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 At the risk of feeding the troll I will say that VGA out is not necessarily a bad thing. But IMO it's not the optimal way to provide a better UI on a keyboard. As pointed out, in a studio environment a PC or Mac with one or more large monitors attached will likely already be there. And in a live situation supporting a separate monitor near or attached to your keyboard stand is problematical. Add to that the ergonomic disadvantage of always needing to move your gaze between the board and a separate display.Note that Roland's recently introduced FA-06 includes a nice color LCD. It is not a touchscreen but it is fairly large and hi-res. The FA-06 is expected to street for ~$1200US (Roland always prices high for what you get). The Korg Krome has a 7-inch color touchscreen LCD and the 61-key version streets for ~$1000 ("$999.99"). Clearly, better displays are starting to appear in affordable instruments (affordable for pros). Perhaps Casio will be the first company to introduce such a display into a sub-$1000 keyboard ($999.99 is not truly sub-$1000!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoovJazzy55 Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 If you don't like your Casio, PM me I have a $5000.00 Yamaha Tyros 5 with matching speakers/sub-woofer and stand that I'm selling. Oh, and it has a killer color screen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Null Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Would you take this handful of magic beans for your Yamaha? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technics Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 For gigging musicians, a large touch sensitive display would probably make some sense, I'd agree. But even then, as a non-gigging hobbyist musician, my preference would be a Casio withThe same small display which lets you to get by to keep it cheap The rubber pad (such as on XW series) moved right in the middle of the board and have a full blown iPad mount Great intuitive iOS app which would cover the entire software capability of the board controlsAs we go today, software instruments are far surpassing anything what you can buy in the Casio price range . Nave, Animoog, Polysix or iMS20 are a clear proof that the software can be packaged in a cheap small app. This will probably sound too risky to some live musicians, but it is clearly the way we are going, smart thermostats, smart TVs, smart phones, smart keyboards..... I know that the iOS apps lack some major polyphony, but as the hardware keeps getting better, so are the apps. One note about the RAM/ROM.It is not only about raising the storage of waveform memory. We need to remember that those samples need to be processed in real time, so , if you double the memory and keep multitimbrality, you would need much faster processor to drive this increased throughput, so what I'm getting to is: raising the sample memory is not as cheap as one may think because the whole machine needs to be beefed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlenK Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 If you don't like your Casio, PM me I have a $5000.00 Yamaha Tyros 5 with matching speakers/sub-woofer and stand that I'm selling. Oh, and it has a killer color screen.If you aren't joking, why are you selling? What don't you like about the Tyros 5? I'm curious because it IS hideously expensive and it should be nearly perfect for that price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoovJazzy55 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 If you aren't joking, why are you selling? What don't you like about the Tyros 5? I'm curious because it IS hideously expensive and it should be nearly perfect for that price. It is just way more keyboard than I want. It is geared more for a one man band performer of which I am not. The sounds are very, and I mean very good. What it lacks is a sampler, and some finger drumming pads, but I don't think it was designed to use it that way. The other thing is it has some built in ROM sequences that are, shall we say old folks styles. Yes, the screen is very large, gives a ton of information, but get ready to spend quite a bit of time learning all of the ins and outs of this workstation. I'm more of a sound tweaker and that is what I love about my P1 and G1, the Yamaha T5 lacks a bit in this area too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoovJazzy55 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Would you take this handful of magic beans for your Yamaha? Tempting I must say, but I'll pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User 29303 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 the problem is not the cost of the Display....the problem is maybe more the software working with the touch screen it is of course more to programm having a touch screen working in the keyboard ,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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