Another CZ Emulation

[AlenK]

You don't have an iPad so you can't run Casio's own CZ app? There are alternatives. Here's the latest I have heard of: https://www.uvi.net/en/vintage-synth/cameo.html. Currently on sale for half price until March 5th.

 

But don't rush out and buy it until you look into the other commercial offerings, including Virtual CZ (review here) and Cazius. Or you could decide to save your money and download a free offering, instead. A couple of them are described here, along with emulations of other vintage Casio keyboards. And there are also soft-synths inspired by the CZ series that take phase distortion and go to town with it, the way you hoped Casio would. One example is Digits 2.0.

 

Short of a used CZ a soft-synth is probably the only way you will be able to get that CZ sound in the foreseeable future. For some unfathomable reason Casio seems completely unwilling to capitalize on the past success of, and goodwill toward, their old CZ synthesizers by releasing new hardware synthesizers based on phase distortion, or even to include phase distortion as an available synthesis mode in a particular model. New keyboards capable of making true CZ sounds (not just having a few CZ waveforms in them, as is the case with the XW synths) would quite likely sell pretty well. 

[IanB]

I must admit I find their disinterest in the CZ engine baffling as well. It would be nice to see them develop an improved version of the engine and release it in a hardware synth. These days they could do true 16 bit for (instead of the companded 12 bit) as a start!

[Jokeyman123]

Digits 2.0 is no longer at the above hyperlink. It is here though. downloading it, trying it.

 

http://www.extentofthejam.com/

[Chas]

23 hours ago, IanB said:

I must admit I find their disinterest in the CZ engine baffling as well. It would be nice to see them develop an improved version of the engine and release it in a hardware synth. These days they could do true 16 bit for (instead of the companded 12 bit) as a start!

 

It seems bizarre that Casio won't come up with a "Reface" style synth of their own legendary CZ line. The closest we got was a handful of CZ style waves included in the XW synths, though that completely missed the point that Phase Distortion isn't about a single wave, but about how that wave evolves and interacts over 8 stage envelopes.

 

Roland has similarly ignored calls to reissue many of their classic analogues, other than coming up with VA models, capitalizing on their previous vintage model names while laughingly claiming "we don't chase ghosts". Meanwhile, Behringer is sweeping the market like crazy by reissuing clones of these classic analogues and giving the market what they've been crying out for ...

[IanB]

I couldn't agree more Chas. Maybe the costs of remaking the uPD933 chip would be higher than the market would bear, although I would think it could be quite easily replicated (and upgraded!) with modern technology. But I must admit that although I'm quite good on electronics I have no idea how the internals work, or any knowledge of whether FPGAs could do the same job as I know nothing about them...

But in the current market I think they'd sell well. It seems to me that during the 80s when these technologies were first developed, each new tech was seen as a potential replacement for the previous one as if an ultimate "best synth engine" goal was being sought. So for instance the digital "killed" the analogue subtractive model and so on. I never believed that, I was always a huge fan of analogue and kept mine (sadly they were all stolen but that's another very sad story) but that didn't turn out to be the case. Now we all see the various types of synthesis engine as a "palette" we can pick and choose from of different soundscapes, just as there is a palette of different acoustic instruments. And I think the CZ sound is certainly one unique constituent of that palette of sounds that people clearly still love.

Casio have always had a great ability to get model ranges to market and if anyone from Casio ever reads this, I would urge them to consider some new CZ (or CZ "plus") models. We won't be able to keep this old kit alive forever...

[mike71]

I think remaking an IC with modern technology having  the original schematics and still ownin the copyrights it could be done.

 

For instance there's a Sinclair ZX Spectrum Next that is an hardware level emulation of the origininal Sinclair machines, down to the ability to load an save programs on tape and usin expansion boards designes to the original ZX Spectrum. Yes, it triggered my GAS 😉

https://www.specnext.com/

 

So, if casio is interestest it could make an emulation using an FPGA core. Or even ask NEC to redo a run of the original chips...

[IanB]

NEC might not have suitable production lines any more, is one thought.

If they do, or it could be replicated in an FPGA, I'd like to be able to buy the "engine" chips to build new control electronics around.

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

If I remember well, ICs (unless based on ROM software) were not even copyrighted but only patented, and patents last maximum 20 years. A fully digital chip shouldn't be too hard to simulate on modern FPGA. Only analogue ICs (like Curtis VCF filters) do complex nonlinear things those have no obvious straight forward way to replicate in binary logics schematics or software. In Casio phase distortion everything before the DAC is digital and hence can be implemented on FPGA.

[Jokeyman123]

Idea-contact Uli Behringer directly-email, text whatever means of communications he allows-ask him to look into-yep, a CZ clone. He is working on a full Oberheim clone as I write this....

https://www.musicradar.com/news/the-behringer-ub-xa-is-nearly-ready-and-you-can-see-it-in-action

 

if his engineering team can do this, how hard might it be to clone a CZ? 

 

Although I can see Casio not liking the idea too much-but if they see another major even considering the possibility....hmmmm........and Uli can disguise the name, call it an Eazy-Peezy phaser modulification synth or something even more ridiculous. If he got away with it with Moog, Sequential and Roland.....i say go for it, Uli Behringer.  My cat is named Uli, actually Ulysses but we call him Uly for short. He already has a synth named for him...wait for it....the Cat duophonic-another Behringer clone, my cat is considering a lawsuit already. Good thing he can't use the phone, and has trouble sending texts....

 

 

[pianokeyjoe]

I have been seeing a trend with CASIO CZ VST plugins and other standalone CZ like Synths over the years. One thing I have noticed right off the bat, is NON have been able to reproduce the iconic Synth Brass sound found on the CZ3000,CZ5000, CZ230S, and SK1 sampler(Brass Ens). It is also found on the CT6500. I had to MAKE the sound on the CZ101/1000. And following the steps I used on those 2 keyboards to make it on them, I could NOT get it right on any of the Software Synths! Is it me? Or is there some key feature missing from all the soft synths, that will not allow that Synth Brass(SK1 Brass Ens), to be reproduced?

 

You know we all have some kind of "standard" by which we all compare and judge things we like or want to try out. Mine is the Brass Ens/Synth Brass sound from those mentioned keyboards above. The CZ1 has that sound as an INTERNAL rewritable preset. Yeah, I almost had a conniption when I did not find it on the ROM presets like on the CZ3000.

 

All this said, to say, if anyone knows this sound, and can reproduce it on ANY of the paid for AND free soft synths for Windows and LINUX, I am all ears!!

[pianokeyjoe]

A comment on the topic of rerelease of Classic Casio keyboards. According to some documentary I saw, Japan tends to go into the future and want NEW things only, discarding the old. Just something I saw about houses, but seems to apply to tech too. Now Again, the above mentioned Brass Ens/Synth Brass(heavy doubled thick brass layered sound with a little reverb style release when you let up on the keys), not being able to be reproduced on software synths, can be a clue. Those 8 stage envelopes DO play a big part. BUT so does the artifacts or as Table Hooters guy on Warranty Void states, "zipper noise". That zipper noise upon release of the keys on alot of the CZ sounds, that IS FUZZY sounding, is part of the overall tonal dynamic, that is missing on the software synths.. I think.. I could be wrong and have not tried ALL the virtual CZ soft out there but so far, I am crying. SO that said, reproducing the sounds and other artifacts on a HARDWARE level may be harder, if it can not be done on software first. Why? Cause sadly, most synths are now computer system based. The old CZ synths were ROM and minimal software based. The new Casio Synths out now, have mostly OS based sample based tones. I think.. and this is just me, but I think Behringer will be the ones to release those Classic Casio keyboards. They are using old tech and reverse engineering it for many OTHER brands sooo.... yeah.. I think Behringer is based in CHINA too, not JAPAN. Do not know if that matters much but just an observation.

[Jokeyman123]

Uli Behringer has built (or re-assembled) a huge facility in China-if you find the Wikipedia about Behringer-this facility is....1,200,000 square feet!!!! His father was, a church organist-and a nuclear physicist!!! Geez, I guess his son must have gotten tired of hearing church organs   . I can't even picture how huge that facility must be. Hope he doesn't plan on making a Godzilla-size synthesizer.   I guess if he wants to, he will. He's copied everything else, he could make a Godzilla-powered workstation-I wonder if the Godzilla patents have expired. 

 

 

[IanB]

It would be difficult to replicate the original artifacts without knowing the internal circuit of the uPD933 chips that CZs use for tone generation. The actual waveforms are kind of weird looking anyway and only vaguely like the shapes the manual claims they are! Zipper noise is caused by jumping the waveform in fairly large steps and causing an extreme form of aliasing. A company like Behringer would have the facilities to reverse engineer the 933s, though there are even some experts on YouTube who de-package ICs and study the circuitry with a microscope.

 

Probably software emulations are using somewhat more idealised waveforms and doing everything floating point, which would create too clean a sound compared to 80s digital tech wheezing along in integer math at 12MHz (the clock for the chips IIRC). Also, the CPUs used, the 7811G, are quite commonplace in Japanese electronics of the period but very poorly documented. I've got the datasheet but it doesn't contain sufficient information to teach me to program the chip. I was considering rewriting the firmware of my CT6500 but I don't think I have that many years of life left to me!

 

I wish Casio had enhanced the CZ's PD engine rather than a new architecture with VZ which bombed in the marketplace. In particular, adapted it so parameters like the DCW values could be modified in real time by the musician. Ah well, no use crying over 35 year old tech, I guess...

[pianokeyjoe]

@IanB, Alas alas.. My dislike for the "software" versions of the CZ or err, PD, or what ever they call their VSTs. Like I said, it is that signature Synth Brass Ens sound I go to find in hurry when I test those software synths. Yeah! No Synth Brass de Casio CZ3000/CZ230S Grrrr!

[IanB]

Just to clarify, PD stands for Phase Distortion which was Casio's name for the CZ engine  As opposed to Vowel Consonant, which was Casio's early method which was basically pulse waves through a preset filter.

[pianokeyjoe]

2 hours ago, IanB said:

Just to clarify, PD stands for Phase Distortion which was Casio's name for the CZ engine  As opposed to Vowel Consonant, which was Casio's early method which was basically pulse waves through a preset filter.

Correct! The Synth Brass 1 sound on our beloved CT6500, is the sound I speak of here.. The SK1 Brass Ens is the same sound, only it was SAMPLED. I can tell cause the upper notes in the SK1 have looping glitches the higher the keys played where as on the REAL thing(CT6500/CZ3000/CZ230S), the sound is consistent throughout the whole keyboard.

[Random_Vibration]

On 3/9/2021 at 1:55 PM, pianokeyjoe said:

A comment on the topic of rerelease of Classic Casio keyboards. According to some documentary I saw, Japan tends to go into the future and want NEW things only, discarding the old

That's not it.  Yamaha and Roland are both Japanese and both have released heritage products.  Yamaha reface series and Roland Boutique both reimagined old products with modern hardware.  Making broad generalizations based something you saw once doesn't help in any way.

 

Casio doesn't want or see the need to reach back beyond Casiotone at the moment. 

 

As a Reface owner, I appreciate Yamaha reaching back and bringing these reimagined products back.  Of course, Yamaha never abandoned their FM roots.  The MODX, Montage, Genos have FM engines in them among other technologies.  Casio has pulled up and out of PD for some strange reason.

 

Maybe Roland and Yamaha just have more respect for their past musical heritage than Casio.

[pianokeyjoe]

My bad guys, well I do understand the trends with OTHER manufacturers, but yeah I was commenting based on some things I did see on the internet about Japan. I will say it is stupid that Casio did not do the same as the others did, but alas, there may be another manufacturer that may do a rebranded rerelease of classic Casiotone stuff. We do know of ONE that did such a thing with Roland,Moog,Korg,etc products right?? 😛 So I am not giving up hope yet.

Edited March 28, 2021 by pianokeyjoe
misspelling

[Random_Vibration]

Sorry for my tone.  I just wished Casio had the same passion for the business as Yamaha and Roland does.  I don't know the business case for a Reface or Boutique CZ but I'm certain they'll sell zero units if they offer none.  

 

Casio could be in economic austerity mode or something.  No new products at NAMM 2021.  No new flagship products since 2016.  No heritage products.  The MZ-X500 is dead and out of stock.  The PX-560M hasn't been available in some parts of the world for a couple years now.  The PX-5 is a quite mature product.  None of these seem to have a replacement to be found.  Maybe we've seen the best Casio products come and go.  A CZ revival just isn't a part of their plans.  They seem to act as if they flew to close to the sun and the wax on their wings melted.

 

Take care of your gear folks, it may be all you get.

[pianokeyjoe]

16 hours ago, Random_Vibration said:

Sorry for my tone.  I just wished Casio had the same passion for the business as Yamaha and Roland does.  I don't know the business case for a Reface or Boutique CZ but I'm certain they'll sell zero units if they offer none.  

 

Casio could be in economic austerity mode or something.  No new products at NAMM 2021.  No new flagship products since 2016.  No heritage products.  The MZ-X500 is dead and out of stock.  The PX-560M hasn't been available in some parts of the world for a couple years now.  The PX-5 is a quite mature product.  None of these seem to have a replacement to be found.  Maybe we've seen the best Casio products come and go.  A CZ revival just isn't a part of their plans.  They seem to act as if they flew to close to the sun and the wax on their wings melted.

 

Take care of your gear folks, it may be all you get.

No worries! I understand the frustration. And..so very true sadly.. Yes, take care of and keep your gear.. Due to the pandemic, I have now learned this lesson. I am full of regrets in life now that we are in this horrible situation and the selling off of my gear some few years ago even, has me regretting alot of things. Sadly prices have gone up so much for classic gear, it is no longer possible for me to afford anymore on my fixed low income. Your observations on the suddenly dead models that were released some years ago and now nothing? Good eye! Yes, I noticed this too and it is a pisser!

[Jokeyman123]

With the smaller percentage of professionals who turn equipment over more quickly in general, due to wear and tear of travelling and playing-due to almost no live venues until the pandemic is over-except for the smaller gigs that can be found-that market will have slowed down. I've noticed many ebay older music gear is getting gobbled up-an the new gear has whittled down to I am guessing-existing stock, although Chinese suppliers have been sending me the odd computer or electronic component pretty quickly. Most new items seem to be going for list retail price-unusual as even new stock sometimes will be listed for a sale price. Yes the older CZ's HT's etc. are going for price that are ridiculous. sort of like home sales-and this will not last. if yu buy a Casio CZ-1 for 800.00 US and in about a year or so-it drops down to what it should be-don't blame me. Do you know anybody who bought a house during 9-11, and a few years later had to eat their mortgage as their house plummeted in value? I do. Its happening all over again. Even Behringer re-issues, Roland etc. not sure I'd spend any money on these now, supplies seem short and prices seem high.

[pianokeyjoe]

3 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

With the smaller percentage of professionals who turn equipment over more quickly in general, due to wear and tear of travelling and playing-due to almost no live venues until the pandemic is over-except for the smaller gigs that can be found-that market will have slowed down. I've noticed many ebay older music gear is getting gobbled up-an the new gear has whittled down to I am guessing-existing stock, although Chinese suppliers have been sending me the odd computer or electronic component pretty quickly. Most new items seem to be going for list retail price-unusual as even new stock sometimes will be listed for a sale price. Yes the older CZ's HT's etc. are going for price that are ridiculous. sort of like home sales-and this will not last. if yu buy a Casio CZ-1 for 800.00 US and in about a year or so-it drops down to what it should be-don't blame me. Do you know anybody who bought a house during 9-11, and a few years later had to eat their mortgage as their house plummeted in value? I do. Its happening all over again. Even Behringer re-issues, Roland etc. not sure I'd spend any money on these now, supplies seem short and prices seem high.

VERY.. well put sir!!! I am struggling to finish repairing and remodeling my home and studio due to this crap. Lumber prices are so high I literally can no longer afford to fix my house and have to live in it half done.. So keeping my old gear just seems like a smart choice lol!

[Jokeyman123]

Absolutely, same here. Good luck with the house-3.25 for a 2 x 4 is a little rich for my blood and gas went up to 3.15 here in PA, in a week. So most of my work has gone completely unfinished since-last March, and not looking good now either. Just came from NJ-not much better than northeast PA here. Priorities-my European friends are not doing well either. England, Italy still really locked down, I think worse than the US. My friend in Italy went to visit relatives in Milan in January-2020 not 2021, has not been back to the US since then. My nephew came up for a few days from Indiana with my great-nephew-in their car, was afraid to go in a jet. Over 12 hours by car straight through-with a 4-year old, He's a brave soul!!! My keyboard "issues"  aren't looking real troubling right now.

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

With hardware soundchips it is not only zipper noise but also very fast internal mixing of polyphony channels (500kHz or higher) that makes them sound better where software imitations turn harsh and thin.

 

On 3/9/2021 at 7:55 PM, pianokeyjoe said:

A comment on the topic of rerelease of Classic Casio keyboards. According to some documentary I saw, Japan tends to go into the future and want NEW things only, discarding the old.

 

Not true. Japan still sells VHS recorders and cassettes, many japanese use flip phones (they name it a galapagos phone) and also tube amplifiers and record players have their fandom. Decades ago in Japan sale of used electronic devices would have almost become outlawed by a new electric safety/liability law, but the Japan Synthesizer Programmers Association (JSPA) started a huge protest to undo that deskdoer law.

 

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20060327/1244238.shtml

Edited January 18, 2022 by CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler

[silent]

On 3/2/2018 at 2:57 PM, AlenK said:

You don't have an iPad so you can't run Casio's own CZ app? There are alternatives. Here's the latest I have heard of: https://www.uvi.net/en/vintage-synth/cameo.html. Currently on sale for half price until March 5th.

 

But don't rush out and buy it until you look into the other commercial offerings, including Virtual CZ (review here) and Cazius. Or you could decide to save your money and download a free offering, instead. A couple of them are described here, along with emulations of other vintage Casio keyboards. And there are also soft-synths inspired by the CZ series that take phase distortion and go to town with it, the way you hoped Casio would. One example is Digits 2.0.

 

Short of a used CZ a soft-synth is probably the only way you will be able to get that CZ sound in the foreseeable future. For some unfathomable reason Casio seems completely unwilling to capitalize on the past success of, and goodwill toward, their old CZ synthesizers by releasing new hardware synthesizers based on phase distortion, or even to include phase distortion as an available synthesis mode in a particular model. New keyboards capable of making true CZ sounds (not just having a few CZ waveforms in them, as is the case with the XW synths) would quite likely sell pretty well. 

It kinda sucks that there are not any open source emulations of Casios PD and iPD synths.
Maybe someday? Even an emulation core of the sound source itself would be good

Edited 23 hours ago by silent