Velocity Sensitive Organ sounds?

[SonnyDaye]

As far as I could tell, there's no VELOCITY SENSITIVE Organ sounds on the CT-X5000. Is it possible to edit any of the Organ sounds so they will be Velocity Sensitive?

Thanks for any suggestions!

[Brad Saucier]

I don't know if it's possible to add velocity sense to tones if the preset is designed that way. Real organs are not velocity sensitive, so I suppose Casio is simply emulating that trait.

[vbdx66]

This is a pity because obviously an electronically keyboard is meant to create non real sounds as well as to emulate the sounds of real instruments.

 

It would have been a far better move to allow the end user to choose whether he needs the touch sensitivity on a particular sound or not. When there is no expressive pedal at hand, touch sensitivity could be a mean to add some expressivity to an organ patch.

 

Also, if you want to create a new patch through, let’s say, layering an E piano with an organ, it is a drawback that the organ layer won’t react to touch sensitivity.

[Jokeyman123]

I have played B3s, C3s and Wurlitzer organs plus a few Farfisas and cheaper imitations. None had touch sensitivity. Players developed technique for organ virtuosity without it, instead using drawbars and the swell or volume pedals to change intensity and dynamics-a completely different approach. None of my Casios have touch sensitivity enabled for the organ sounds, although there are other keyboards that do. Can you create your own user tone and enable touch sensitivity?  I think I can do that with the PX560 in hex mode, although because of playing technique I wouldn't want to. It takes a bit of talent for most performing keyboard players to have virtuoso ability on acoustic pianos and organs based on the 2 different mechanical constraints of the opposing instruments, that's why some bands have 2 keyboard players-think E Street band, where Danny Federici (sadly deceased although his son is performing and recording, he's done a session or two with my brother in the studio) played most of the organ and accordion leads while professor Roy Bittan played most of the grand piano parts-now he does both. David Foster (yes that one, the arranger and producer now works with ) originally played piano with the E Street band which is possibly why there were  piano parts in early E Street songs. And when did you ever hear Greg Allman play a piano-he almost exclusively stuck to his Hammond, while Chuck Leavell doubled on piano and organ-you can hear him with Clapton when he did his first acoustic blues arrangements to get that great New Orleans and blues piano . I can do blazing runs on a spring-action instrument, but an acoustic piano-that's a different animal.

[SonnyDaye]

I’m a PIANO player! My “volume chops” are in my FINGERS, not my FEET. Why should a piano player be discriminated against and not allowed to play an organ sound with volume nuances controlled by fingers rather than a volume pedal?

I've run into this problem and discussion over the years with many, many Casio (and other) keyboards. I’m recalling that in some of those situations there WERE solutions that allowed some organ sounds to be edited to allow velocity sensitivity. Hoping we can figure out a way to do that with the CT-X5000.

Attention REAL organ players: I KNOW that’s not the way real organs work! But...loosen up, be open-minded! I promise I won’t take away any gigs from you! 🤪

[Brad Saucier]

The CT-X3000/5000 has some basic tone editing tools for creating user tones.  They don't quite go quite as deep as models like PX-5S, PX-560 and MZ-X series, which all have the hex layer synth.  The real interesting power in the CT-X series tone editing is in the DSP effects.  Outside of that, we have attack time, decay time, cutoff, velocity sense, vibrato rate and depth and effects adjustments. CT-X700/800 does not have tone editing.

[vbdx66]

This is a pity because this function is so easy to implement. For instance, all Yamaha PSR E303 to 363 and E403 to 463 have four level of keyboard sensitivity: soft, medium, hard and fixed. Of course, you can play organ sounds (or other sounds for that matter) with a fixed velocity, but if you wish, you can apply one of the three velocity levels even for organ sounds. Not everyone is a professional player and most amateur bands will have only one keyboardist (if any) who will have to provide all piano, organ and synth sounds on one instrument.

 

Yamaha PSR E keyboards have roughly the same price as the Casio CT-X Line. The CT-X are much better soundwise and featurewise than the Yamaha’s, but IMO they lack some very basic functionalities such has the choice of velocity level for all voices, as well as volume adjustement for the Upper1, Upper2 and Lower voices on the CT-X700 and 800.

[Brad Saucier]

The CTX series does have a choice of touch sensitivity, 3 levels plus off, under the function menu.  This is a global setting on both Casio and Yamaha products.  The velocity sense settings in tones are relative adjustments to the presets, so it may not have enough power to overcome the preset.  It's a try it and see thing. With all that said, Casio provided an expression pedal input (something heavily requested by owners), which can be used for organ expression.  That's something I highly recommend trying.  It's authentic and you'll probably learn something new.  

[SonnyDaye]

Thanks for all that info guys! I was about to ask why I wasn’t getting any results by cranking up the velocity sensitivity setting in one of the random organ sounds I tried.

Now the question arises.....are there ANY organ tones that ARE preset to have touch sensitivity? Hoping so!

I'm aware of the exression pedal input, but as I said, my volume chops are in my (pianist) fingers, not in my foot! And I’m too old to change that at this point! ☹️ 

I’m from the school of “feet are for sustaining, not for “expressing”!” 😁

[Brad Saucier]

There may be a couple of them that can be tweaked to have a little velocity sense.  You'll have to go through them.  I tried 073 RokOdOrg and it seems to respond a little.  

[Vorbis]

Just to add to this topic,  Hammond tone wheel organs such as B3, C3 and A100's have, per each key, a switch contact for every drawbar.    That is, there are 9 individual switches under each key.   The first switch you close as you press the key is the top drawbars (Highest pitch) down to the lowest tone switch.   If you press very slowly or quite lightly without a full key press,  you end up only playing the highest  component(s) of the note, following down to each drawbar switch the further the key is pressed.   Percussion which is on the B3, C3 and A100's take the second or third harmonic from the top 2 drawbars and adds that  back into the pressed note as a percussive note that decays much like a piano note decays.  Casio allows you to switch second and third harmonics on their drawbar organ settings.  

 

While none of this is velocity sensitive, with a very light touch, the player can control how the notes sound.  Hammering away on the keys on a Hammond organ makes no difference.  It's the light touch that can make a difference.    This is probably TMI but relevant to the topic.

 

CTK 900

WK 7500

[Jokeyman123]

OK, Sonny-I don't think you can do this with the CTX series, but I have uploaded a very good workaround for the PX560 which allows full touch sensitivity with all of the organ sounds built into the PX560. a little button pressing but it works well and can be used for recording individual sounds into tracks as well. 

 

I started with a "raw" unedited hex sound which defaults to sine waves for all 6 layers. I selected one of the many organ patches or wavs from the database of waves built into the PX560-as per another post you can only pick these raw wavs to build a new tone from the hex layer mode. I assigned a different organ sound (or wave sound if you will) for each of the 6 hex layer sounds. Now each is touch sensitive like any of the pianos since apparently touch sensitivity is one of the default settings when programming a new hex layer sound. Here is the tricky part, not really but if you are not familiar with the PX560-pick my tone from the main tone menu, push "edit"-now you enter "layer" mode to see all 6 layers on your screen. Hit "off" so all layers are initially off-no sounds. Now by selecting individual layers on or off from the same menu page, you have instant access to 6 different organ tones all with touch sensitivity. and you can program any of these with the hex layer edits-I tried a little portamento for instance-makes a very nice detuned organ effect. I only programmed and uploaded one hex layer, tone but there were several more organ tones I could have created an entire new 6 tones with another hex layer-all with touch sensitivity. For this one set, I used mostly the GM organ tones, but i also used one of the other non-GM organ tones that also work.

 

I am not familiar with the CTX series, but if there is any kind of setting saving an existing tone I would think as a registration or layer-as Brad suggested might bring in the ability to do a touch-sensitive organ. One final word on this-could this be why Keith Emerson used to stick knives in his Hammonds and kick them off the stage-no touch sensitivity? Or maybe he was just being overly touchy about the whole concept arf arf arf! Back to the mother ship.                            

                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                            

TOUCHORG.ZLT

[Joe Muscara]

On 10/18/2018 at 10:36 AM, SonnyDaye said:

I’m a PIANO player! My “volume chops” are in my FINGERS, not my FEET. Why should a piano player be discriminated against and not allowed to play an organ sound with volume nuances controlled by fingers rather than a volume pedal?

The thing is, when organ players use the expression pedal, a) it is NOT really just a volume difference, it also changes the tone, and 2) it's done independently of when the notes are played. An organ player uses the expression player to bring in the sound or change it while holding down keys. In order to simulate that with just your fingers, the change in how hard/fast you strike the keys would have to change more than just volume and you'd need aftertouch to change it while you are holding down the keys. You would push more and it would get louder, back off and it would get softer. That's probably not in your piano technique, either.

 

I'm not saying "do it this way or you're wrong." I'm just letting you know so that you are aware of the differences in the instruments and their playing techniques.

[Jokeyman123]

Thanks Joe for coming into this discussion. I've worked as a drummer years ago with several very fine Hammond players, who used their expression pedals to great effect-whether backing a vocal, for great dramatic solo effect or, to vary what you play behind another soloist, it is an important skill and I would not be able to duplicate that with only a touch sensitive keyboard, and I've played= hammonds too-been tutored by players better than me, even though my main axe is the piano. Just different ways of expressing yourself, which makes music such a challenging and enjoyable skill IMO. Like a sax player who doubles on flute and clarinet. Or even rarer, someone who can switch from brass to woodwind, not an easy switch either but I've worked with at least one musician that did that-trumpet and sax on the same gig. Very cool-or Jake Kulic I did weddings with-he doubled on keyboard and bass guitar at the same time on gigs, in the early 1970s. And because he got extra pay for covering 2 parts (union scale).  Or Arlo bodine, who could play Beethoven's 5th symphony on his nose flute (well I'm making that one up but not Jake) .

Yeah I'm that old.

[SonnyDaye]

Thanks for all that info Joe! I wasn’t aware of that at all. I guess there's not much a pianist and organist have in common. Who knew? 😜

But I have run into velocity organ tones on keyboards and to my “organ uneducated” ears and fingers they allow me to pretend I’m playing an organ.😁

And thanks Brad for the tip on the 073 RokOdOrg tone. At least it’s a little sensitive. I couldn’t find any others.

 

[Jokeyman123]

Do you have the PX560? Try my touch sensitive organ patch hex layer-you can of course get quite a bit of expression out of a good organ patch with touch sensitivity-I've been doing some practice runs/riffs now that I set this patch up and thought about your comments. I think much organ technique was based on the limitations of having no dynamic control except with expression and volume pedals and of course drawbars. Listen to a modern player like Joey DeFrancesco-he plays pretty much flat-out  like the classic guys-Jack McDuff and Jimmy Smith didn't vary dynamics much except for variations in drawbar settings and the "swell" effect so prevalent in organ technique. Definitely a different approach than classical or jazz piano and not easily accomplished. I never came across guys who could switch to the piano easily if they grew up playing console organs. Keith Emerson was an exceptional player who could do both. Even both Springsteen's keyboards guy grew up on accordion lessons. Billy Joel-was classically trained on piano-did you ever hear him play an organ of any kind-not that I can think of.  Takes some pretty talented chops to do both I think.

[SonnyDaye]

On 10/20/2018 at 9:01 AM, Jokeyman123 said:

Do you have the PX560? Try my touch sensitive organ patch hex layer-you can of course get quite a bit of expression out of a good organ patch with touch sensitivity-I've been doing some practice runs/riffs now that I set this patch up and thought about your comments. I think much organ technique was based on the limitations of having no dynamic control except with expression and volume pedals and of course drawbars. Listen to a modern player like Joey DeFrancesco-he plays pretty much flat-out  like the classic guys-Jack McDuff and Jimmy Smith didn't vary dynamics much except for variations in drawbar settings and the "swell" effect so prevalent in organ technique. Definitely a different approach than classical or jazz piano and not easily accomplished. I never came across guys who could switch to the piano easily if they grew up playing console organs. Keith Emerson was an exceptional player who could do both. Even both Springsteen's keyboards guy grew up on accordion lessons. Billy Joel-was classically trained on piano-did you ever hear him play an organ of any kind-not that I can think of.  Takes some pretty talented chops to do both I think.

 

All good points, Jokeyman!

Thanks!

I don’t have the PX-560. I've had the PX-5s since it first came out. Love it. Always hoped they’d come out with a 76 key version. ☹️

Any chance your TOUCHORG.ZLT would work on the PX-5s?

[Jokeyman123]

I'm pretty sure the 2 are not cross-compatible with tones or hex layers (not completely sure I've never tried but according to Mike Martin's post, many of the signature PX5s sounds are in the PX560. I wonder-if simply creating a hex layer with an organ (or several) organ sounds in the PX5s will do the same thing as the PX560. I made no other modifications except to bring the particular organ wav files into each hex layer across the entire keybed for each-handy way to organize 6 different sounds and selecting by turning hex layers on and off. Can this be done with the PX5s?

[Brad Saucier]

It's already been done for the PX-5S.  There are many hex layer organ tones for it, quite a few preset.  The preset stage setting 4 draw organ is one.  You could simply go in and edit the tone to add velocity sense there.

[Jokeyman123]

Aha! Good heads up Brad. Sonny-problem solved-except doing long organ glisses on a piano keyboard can get pretty bloody after a few sets!  2 keys for gigs-a piano-action and a spring-action synth keybed for me. I wouldn't hesitate to gig with XW-P1 on top and PX Privia on bottom tier. Portability plus, nice.

[- T -]

I just checked my Yamaha PSR-E433.  NONE of its "native"/"panel" ("quality") organ tones respond to key level velocity variations, and like the entry level CT-X's, has no tone editor for adding it, BUT . . . . . ALL 26 of its XG-Lite (GM equivalent) organ tones DO respond to key level velocity.  I need someone to check the GM voice bank organ tones in the CT-X700/X800 to see if they respond to velocity.  I am willing to bet they do.  GM/XG/XG-Lite are the economy palettes.  Realism is not necessarily their forte.  So, if I am correct in my guess, in this respect, the Yamaha entry level PSR-E3XXX/E4XXX and the Casio entry level CT-X700/X800 model lines are pretty much the same.  There is no need or sense pitying or criticizing one over the other.  Now, that said, I do have to agree, to an extent, with those who would prefer it.  With my various Roland boards, through the years, I could add key level velocity sensitivity to any tone, and like so many of these arranger keyboard capabilities vs realism discussions come down to, I am not so sure that the average non-musician (read that: "non-purist') listener would ever know the difference, or even care, if they did know the difference.  As a matter of fact, they might even appreciate some unrealistic expression to a monotonous drone, when an expression pedal is not available.  For that reason, I always enjoyed adding a little key level "flare" to my Roland organ tones.  At any rate, if you really need velocity sensitive organ tones on boards that do not appear to have it, and no way of adding it, check the organ tones in your GM/XG/XG-Lite voice banks.  There might just be a usable work-around surprise waiting there for you.

 

But . . . . now . . . . back to the original question . . . . what about the CT-X3000/X5000?  At the top of Page EN-75 of the CT-X3000/X5000 manual, the Tone Editor Parameter lists the Velocity Sense as adjustable from -64 to 0 to +63.  If you check this on your organ Tones, I think you will find this set to 0.  If you change it to a positive value, and save it as a User Tone, it should give you what you want.  If I remember correctly, I did this to some of the organ tones on my CTK-6000/7000 and WK-7500.  I do not think Casio would go to the expense of an additional layer of programming to have just the organ wave samples ignore this parameter.  From the manual and the appendix, it looks like the Tone and Rhythm editing capabilities of the CT-X3000/X5000 are similar to those of the CTK/WK-6XXX/7XXX models, although in the appendix, it looks like the Rotary (Leslie) controls for acceleration and deceleration are gone.  I would thoroughly miss those, as I used to have a lot of fun with those on the old models.

 

- T -

 

 

[SonnyDaye]

11 minutes ago, - T - said:

 I do have to agree, to an extent, with those who would prefer it.  With my various Roland boards, through the years, I could add key level velocity sensitivity to any organ tone, and like so many of these arranger keyboard capabilities vs realism discussions come down to, I am not so sure that the average non-musician (read that: "non-purist') listener would ever know the difference, or even care, if they did know the difference.  As a matter of fact, they might even appreciate some unrealistic expression to a monotonous drone, when an expression pedal is not available.  

 

Excellent point, T.

I agree totally!

[Shaunaflynn]

On 10/25/2018 at 11:02 AM, SonnyDaye said:

 

All good points, Jokeyman!

Thanks!

I don’t have the PX-560. I've had the PX-5s since it first came out. Love it. Always hoped they’d come out with a 76 key version. ☹️

Any chance your TOUCHORG.ZLT would work on the PX-5s?

Having some experience with a relatively difficult instrument like an accordion does help improve your performance.