CZ-230s-troubleshooting

[Jokeyman123]

Getting an older non-working CZ-230s for giggles, getting bored that all my keyboards work properly. HA-HA. LOL, AFAIK, IMO etc.....

 

Can anyone point me to what to look for if this shows no power-on or demonstrates other electronic "anomalies" (I try to fit that word in here once in awhile)-what parts of these usually failed first? I found info about the CZ-101 and what those electronic failures usually are, can I use that info for the CZ-230s? Although I have a rather large collection of Casios already, I thought this might be fun to get up and running-I'm an old hand with the original CZs and this is small enough that I can hide it somewhere without tripping over it since my other instruments are all 76 or 88 keys and take up quite a bit of real estate already. That, and I am creating my next movie blockbuster soundtrack and thought I might us this one.   Just kidding.

[Jokeyman123]

This is a very fun little instrument. Surprising how with all the "high-end" Casios I play, this reminds me how much fun the simpler Casios can be. This CZ230s is in beautiful condition and except for the screen, everything works. I got it as non-working and initially it would not power on at all. I opened it, cleaned some battery corrosion away, checked all the internals which seemed like new, put it back together and bam it powered on, with batteries or AC supply, great news!

 

Which is why I'm posting again-I have studied several websites about changing out the CZ-101 and other CZs to a newer backlit display-but I'm not sure the CZ230s is the same display, looks assembled differently than inside a CZ-101 but that might be the webpics I'm seeing. Opening the instrument-I see that a leaky battery adjacent to the screen connector inside might be causing the blank display, there was some junk near it. Rather than try to fix this, I'd rather replace it with a newer backlit screen. if anyone here can give me some information, thanks. A real nice little Casio. Now, I can re-program some px560 and XW tones based on what is here some surprisingly good brass and bass sounds and the pianos aren't terrible either, considering this is using only PD synthesis and probably 8-bit! Certainly not going to fool anybody into thinking this is a Hammond either! It has all the midi din ports including  a thru port, very nice. I wonder what CC messages it can send, time to get midiox fired up.   Guess i missed my old CZ synths after all.

[Jokeyman123]

Adding to my own topic again. Disassembling the cz230s completely revealed a few things....
1) the keyboard assembly is very solid, mostly steel framing, surprising for a lttle Casio.

2) the lcd display is not the same as other czs-it uses a very thin and frail ribbon cable soldered to a separate board with i guess a control ic chip. This is why it isnt working. Lifting a thin piece of black tape near the soldered end of the cable revealed an almost imperceptible crack through the entire span of connecting ribbon traces which will take brain surgery to repair.

3) There is a very thin strip of felt under the keys which I can easily mod.

4) I will not be able to add a backlit lcd without some re-engineering and i'm not sure the wiring even if re-engineered will be compatible. Same number of leads as the other cz lcd panels, but i'm guessing after that. Sayonara for now.

 

[IanB]

So, how did it go?

[Jokeyman123]

It worked well-except for the display-which I was not able to get working again, no matter what I tried to do to re-laminate the connections to the LCD. Fortunately, since most of the functions on the 230 are dedicated to buttons, I was able to operate it without the LCD, but it would have helped to see the midi channel setting. and compared to the full-sized CZ cosmo synths I used to own and play-not as muc un since only 4 sounds could be edited, and this has to be done with a software program, then sent to the CZ through a dedicated Casio CZ librarian-and there actually is at least one I had used. Had to run it through an Atari editor that ran in a Windows virtual emulator-makes a windows machine run so ir looks like my old Atari 520ST-FM. I think there is a windows librarian for the CZs now though.
 

[IanB]

That's a pity about the display

As for the editing, I've written a CZ editor and although I haven't tested it with a 230 I presume it would work. Feel free to give it a try, it's in the Windows 10 store, full description in this thread-

 

 

 

It's completely free. I'd be very interested to know if it works with the 230!

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

Damaged Casio LCD foil cables can not be repaired - not even the glue can be remelted by heat. Only when it simply fell off (no cracks inside the carbon layer) it may be pressed on by constructing a clamp mechanism with adhesive foam rubber strip holding it down. But damage by battery leak vapour will surely make it unusable.

The Casio foil cable disease also affects the VL-1, many calculators, alarm clocks and LCD games, so a systematic fix is urgently needed. I hope that eventually someone will find out how to refill an inkjet printer cartridge with matching conductive paint and various glues to print a remade cable on plastic foil. Physically this shouldn't be that difficult. See e.g. this one.

Print Conductive Circuits With an Inkjet Printer:
https://www.instructables.com/id/Print-Conductive-Circuits-With-An-Inkjet-Printer/

[Jokeyman123]

I tried--I suspect you are right about battery corrosion vapor. I tried heat, pressure-nothing restored it.  Interesting link. Good or prototypes or experimenting.

[maynardstoolbox]

Hey man. Jusy wondering if you guys figure out how to make key selections 

96 computer game

97 laser gun

98 miracle

Are all amazing sound from a cz230s. Anyone encountered the same problem? How did you fix it? Pls help thanks

 

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

The upper 4 preset sound numbers are user presets in RAM. If I remember well, they only contain the named contents after a reset (see user manual), else it there may be random mess or silence on 96, 97, 98, 99.

[maynardstoolbox]

On 5/8/2020 at 10:33 AM, CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler said:

The upper 4 preset sound numbers are user presets in RAM. If I remember well, they only contain the named contents after a reset (see user manual), else it there may be random mess or silence on 96, 97, 98, 99.

 

Ive been turning holding the cancel button while the power is on as suggested to reset. Any other ways to make those work? im having a hard time figuring it out and still no sound coming out for those keys. :(

[maynardstoolbox]

24 minutes ago, maynardstoolbox said:

 

Ive been turning holding the cancel button while the power is on as suggested to reset. Any other ways to make those work? im having a hard time figuring it out and still no sound coming out for those keys. :(

 

Attention: When the Casio CZ-230S is disconnected from power for some days with no batteries inserted, it looses its RAM contents and by this often crashes so deeply that all preset sounds or at least the sounds 96 to 99 stay mute. Sometimes it even turns itself off when starting a rhythm. To fix this, simply reset the instrument (erases memory contents) by holding the red "C" button during power-on.

 

This was suggested but seems the C button when hold does not reset. 

[Jokeyman123]

Another trick which may or may not work-but will not do any damage. I have successfully reset a few older instruments by doing this, but....

Put a power adapter into the CZ power jack and short the +/- connections with a wire. This is creating a "hard reset" in case the rec C button isn't working for whatever reason. or-do the same across the battery leads, maybe both. The theory (without detailed schematics to study why this might work) is the same as a hard reset. I seem to recall haing the same CZ-230 problem with mine, but the posted solutions here worked for me-had to do it almost every time-probably leaky caps or ram chips. There is something called "bitrot" that describes the process of deterioration within ICs which after all are only a huge bunch of diode-like and transistor-like circuits, any of which can blow after time. i think this is why much electronic music equipment if left unused for a time without power, ends up dead. If caps are not refreshed, will dry out and become resistors, since the insides no longer can conduct and hold a charge. Cyber-yogi, am i correct? 

[IanB]

This page contains (claims to) contain the complete CZ230s patch set, but as patches for the CZ101. You could use my software VZV-CZ (link in my signature) to load each of the patches into their correct preset numbers in your CZ230.

 

http://www.donsolaris.com/?page_id=346

Edited May 9, 2020 by IanB
I forgot the link!

[IanB]

@Jokeyman electrolytic capacitors last longer when not powered up. What dries them out is the heat of currents flowing through them. It is worth emphasising though that thanks to the internet there is far too much capacitor replacement ("recapping") being doing as if it's a universal fix-all. I got a 4 track cassette machine off eBay that was not working due to a complete, inept replacement of capacitors resulting in various other faults, many of which were frustratingly intermittent. Most of the time it's only high current power supply capacitors that are badly aged (if any) while the others are likely to be either perfectly fine or not much affecting anything. As we saw recently here with our "communal repair" of that guy's CZ-1000, faults are usually specific and can be traced to specific failures (as with his one logic IC).

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

Shorting + and - at the power supply jack can not have any effect because the internal SRAM backup battery or electrolytic capacitor and input voltage are connected through each a diode. Hence shorting from outside can not reach the voltage stored inside. Many power supplies have somewhat low resistance anyway when plugged out of mains (e.g. due to a power LED or other consumers), hence the diodes are necessary to make SRAM work.

Only in simply battery operated toys with no complex memory backup feature it can help to remove all batteries and short + and - inside its battery compartment.

I remember that my HP48SX calculator had to be modified with external contacts because after a deep crash it could not be turned on anymore for a day (very unsuited for use at university). I had installed an overclocking addon to make it compute curves or solve equations about 3 or 4 times faster, with the side effect to cause crashes if battery was too empty.

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

> @Jokeyman electrolytic capacitors last longer when not powered up.

WRONG!
They even age faster by not using them and so decrease inner resistance because the insulating oxid layer dissolves and becomes conductive. Very similar like with deep-discharged NiMH batteries, this regenerates when powered on for some hours. In high power applications (e.g. inside a switching mode PSU) too long unused electrolytic caps can even develop such a strong shortcircuit that they explode or damage connected hardware when not used for some years. This mainly happens with low grade caps, but with very old caps it is recommended to charge them with reduced current (through a resistor) if they behave strange.

When caps go bad by heat of normal use, the device is misconstructed (like in many flatscreen TVs). E.g. the main capacitor in my Grundig 6199 tube amp is still intact despite using it for about 14h/day.

See Badcaps.net website for more info.

[IanB]

Different effects. The service life of an elecrolytic is hours of use at some ripple current, voltage etc. That works to shorten the capacitor's life much faster than the gradual effects you're talking about.

[Jokeyman123]

Cyber-yogi I didn't say that caps lasted longer when not powered on regularly-i was saying the opposite-what you are saying has been my repair experience. Disuse can damage quite a few components over time. Why I always power up electronics once in awhile if i haven't used these-just like a car or truck frankly.

And yes, recapping is only for an advanced electronics tech who knows how to really test caps-live and not live, not an easy task.Every suspect cap I've tested in circuit has been good-I agree it usually ends up being something else in food-chain. 

 

I still have a huge LR-9090 Lafayette stereo receiver (1970 I think I purchased new), it had just come to market) which despite huge power caps-is still fully functional-partially possibly because I have always powered it up, i use it.  It's a monster and still sounds fantastic, even as a non-tube receiver, but good grief, its discrete transistors gulp like my TEAC 3340 I bought around the same time-I think a year or 2 later and has needed some transistor replacements-twice. The lafayette is  hooked up to 4 12" 3-way speaker cabinets, which I built myself, including ducted ports and crossovers-sounds incredible when I hook up my Casios to it. a little extreme, but then so am eye! 

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

It depends very much on quality whether electrolytic caps survive to stay unpowered for decades and how they behave by load and heat. Switching power supplies will heat up caps those have too high impedance, hence they need special types (that's all explained on the Badcaps site) and they should be 105°C not 85°C types because the rated lifespan in hours is only related to that temperature and will be hundreds or thousands times longer when kept cool enough.

The Fortron AT PSU inside the PC I am typing on is from mid of 1990th and its caps still work flawlessly (However I transplanted it into a case of a newer PSU with more air throughput by a bigger fan hanging underneath.) Otherwise a huge McPower lab PSU bought used on eBay immediately stank apart because a noname blastcap died. Last year I recapped my SGI monitor (22 inch Trinitron CRT) that had plenty of bad small caps inside (impedance measured with a Chinese "AVR Transistor-Tester" clone) while physically big caps were all ok. Size matters, because small ones by smaller contact surfaces have trouble getting rid of heat and produce more heat by higher impedance.

Electrolytic caps in low current circuits (e.g. tone or envelope control in audio electronics) can function perfectly despite lousy impedance values, or may simply need some minutes to regenerate. So when an old analogue synth behaves a bit odd (e.g. envelope or LFO waveform wrong) it can help to simply wait a while.

[Jokeyman123]

Yep the old analog synths I played were almost all like this-unstable oscillators until switched on for awhile. Good information, thanks Cyber-Yogi. at least we can post, almost like working side-by-side. Nice to know someone who has such an excellent working knowledge of electronics. This may also explain-I'm trying to troubleshoot the screen on my RM1X Yamaha-the backlight is fine, but the contrast rather poor until it warms up-you ay have just helped me solve that problem-it has a variable resistor to control the contrast-but at it's extrem setting-the contrast is till rather washed out until it has been on for around 5-10 minutes. The characters are clear-I don't think the connector is failing-might be soe capacative deterioration in the voltage to the LCD-I've put off troubleshooting until I had a better idea of what to look for. it is an old machine, but I've restored most of the click switch buttons and the floppy is a magneto-optical, (I think that's what it's called) not a belt driven on so it's held up well. 

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

What do you mean with magneto-optical? An MOD disc is a sort of rewritable CD that was rarely used for anything else than Steve Job's "Next" workstations and CT/MRT imaging computers because they were too expensive for home use.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto-Optical_Disc

Almost all 3.5'' diskette drives in computers (Amiga, ST, PC) were beltless (direct drive). AFAIK belts were used only in early 5 1/4'' (cardboard) floppy drives for Apple II etc.

With the LCD check the supply voltage of the driver chip with an oscilloscope. If there is much ripple when cold (due to its own spike-shaped power consumption), likely a cap is bad. Naked LCDs also don't like DC offsets on the control voltages (they can decompose the liquid crystal). If through a broken cap leaks DC into control waveforms, it may make the LCD go nuts. LCDs typically are driven by a 4 level stairwave signal. In early hardware (e.g. Casio VL-5) the 4 voltages for the step heights are externally produced and so may be affected by bad capacitors or shortcircuits by battery leak acid spilled at components.

[Jokeyman123]

Direct drive-right just forgot what these were called. Of course several of my older keyboards used belt-drive floppy drives. I know, i had to replace a few belts. so I'm happy when I see an old direct-drive floppy. Thanks for troubleshooting tips re LCD. I am trying to get to it today, with the 6 other projects I need to work on. Oh well.

[pianokeyjoe]

The LCD screen on the CZ230s is similar to the HT/HZ keyboard LCD which is more a custom LCD that looks like those from the older LCD calculators of the mid 80s. You CAN edge light the display cause I did it with my HT700 and PT50 back in the day with a tiny incandescent leaded bulb I removed from some toy. Bright LEDs did not cost cheap back in the 80s and 90s so...

 

There IS some kind of a fix for these LCD screens BTW, because ROLAND MC505,and XP10,JX305 instruments use a similar display tech but those are properly backlit but they too crap out over time due to the ribbon foil, carbon and so on, drying up with heat and breaking down, including the lcd itself delaminating. I have seen replacements and fixes all over youtube, and ebay and google. So it should not be so far fetched to fix the Casio LCDs too.

 

The power caps exploding I can attest to! I used to fix HP pentium 4 desktop computers we tech's dubbed "SHOCKERS" because you plug them in and they would short the AC, and explode! Not fun, but funny at the same time..

 

I only ever had ONE CZ230s and it was defective due to leaky batteries damage inside, and sadly, if the battery alkali eats the traces and some components inside, you are stuck with a parts machine and even then, the parts may be so corrupt, that you can not even reuse the boards and ic chips if they are eaten up by the battery acids.

 

Sadly my CZ230s ended up smashed in anger.. concert is OVER! LOL!

[Jokeyman123]

The MC505 LCD is nothing like the little "transreflective" non-backlit LCD in the CZ230s, I wish it had been so. The MC505 is an easy fix, mine has a new one and these are easy enough to get. The CZ-I'm afraid Cyber-Yogi is right-it is impossible to "re-laminate" these types of LCDs-it is such a thin ribbon connector-and the fault i found must have been inside the very LCD layer connected to the cable. There are a few Rolands floating around right now-forget which one-with backlit graphic display that delaminates-the supposed fix of reheating these defective displays you see on Youtube does not work- I tried this with I think it was an EXR-5 arranger which was an excellent keyboard except for the inherently defective screen-and although it temporarily brought back the graphic display and the backlight was fine-it faded again as soon as the heat cooled down. Apparently not all this technology is designed too well. These Rolands are notorious-as the display is not a drop-in replacement anywhere, and Roland will not release the part to anyone except-Roland.  The other is the Juno-G. Just passing it on.