Midi clock sync

[Jokeyman123]

As some of you know, some Casios (and other midi equipment) do not have a midi clock in or out generated internally-for example, the XW-P1 does, the PX560 does not. This matters as i have a huge variety of equipment that can be synchronized through midi, and in creating more "live" or realtime recordings with my sequencers-I would like to sync the PX560 in particular with the Xw-P1/Yamaha QY modules and my software sequencers. Reason for this post-years ago, in the analog age (yeah now you know how old i am) I could sync analog synths with an analog-audio trigger-I did this with a Pro-One which sent a control voltage signal out with its built-in step sequencer. I was able to assemble my own control voltage device that would be sensed by another analog device-and keep their respective sequencers synced together. This was a long time ago-I don't remember exactly how I did it, but I recall before midi, my Korg Poly-61 had a simple arpeggiator-and i was able to sync the Pro-One and Poly 61 together-crude system but back then-there was no other means of creating a sync signal. There are ways to work around this-setting identical tempos on 2 or more devices and hoping for the best-have had some luck with a QY100 and PX560, but most devices aren't precise enough to do this without a clock signal.

 

I am researching if there is currently some device that could connect to a keyboard without midi clock-that could create some kind of midi clock out-possibly based on an audio tone output-say a simple drum sound as a metronome that could create a synced midi clock. Even something that could use MTC somehow from my digital recorders to sync to keyboards that have no midi clock. Asking for alot here, but if anybody has any ideas-post back. I am seeing some devices that look like this can happen, but most so far are costing as much as the PX560 or more!

[Sol]

Hi Jokeyman

There are some Midi Hubs that come with Tru and Dyn-Sync outputs with a selector.

The MIDI commands for synchronization (Start, Stop, Continue, Clocks) transmitted by the controller are then converted by Thru+Sync into synchronization pulses that are sent by the DIN SYNC output to the analog instrument to be synchronized.

Depending on the Midi Hub model, the format of the synchronization pulses can be set to 1 ppq (adopted in some analog sequencers), 2 ppq (Korg Volca), 24 ppq (Roland TR, etc) or 48 ppq (Korg DDM, KPR, etc).

 

On the final of this video (12min) he talk about this kind of Dyn-Sync output thats give a pulse to sistem:

 

[Chandler Holloway]

Sometimes changing the tempo on those Casio models without clock sends out a system exclusive message that allows external devices to “pseudo-sync” by adjusting the tempo in their end as well. I faintly recall that the Casiotones do this when connected to the MIDI player in Chordana Play, so that changing the keyboard’s tempo also changes the tempo of the scrolling notes on the piano roll, though I no longer have one to test so I can’t be sure. Connect the PX-560 to MIDI OX and monitor some of the messages to see if there’s anything you can work with.

 

I know for a fact that the CT-X models send out a specific sysex message whenever you start playing a song in song mode. You could at the very least try to translate that message into the standard MIDI clock start message, which would alleviate some of the imprecision involved in the “press start on both sequencers at the same time” method. 

 

In any case, you’ll likely need something translating MIDI messages between the 560 and whatever you want to send clock to, and this also requires you to make the PX-560 the master controller in the clock chain. I would look into a Raspberry Pi (via the USB-MIDI port), or maybe something like the RetroKits RK-002 for a cleaner DIN-MIDI solution (although it would be harder to program for, to be sure).

[Jokeyman123]

The PX560 has no song position pointer or song start message, in sysex or in any midi message. I do not see any song start sysex message in any documentation. Midiox is also not showing any type of song start message. Internal clocks without sync seem to be very accurate in all the devices I've tried so far. Am still experimenting with other midi devices-to see how stable each device's tempo clock is. I can sync many other devices together-and manually sync the PX560 song recorder, the only solution I can use at present. The best solution-incorporate midi clock in the PX560. Would make production with multi midi devices a bit easier. and the above diagram would not accomplish what I need-as the PX560 will not be able to understand or receive these sync messages-that setup is not what I need to do-all those devices can receive and sync to a central clock, i can do that with a midi chain already-just not with the PX560.

[Jokeyman123]

To clarify/simplify-use the metronome or a song recorder audio tone coming from the PX560 to create a midi clock pulse recognized by other devices that respond to midi clock-or to software sequencers. Similar to how older pre-midi analog equipment could trigger audio sync sounds recognizable to other analog instruments capable of "hearing' those sounds and syncing. so the above last device in his video is close-but actually the reverse of what I am trying to accomplish-all those devices, the Volca, Behringers, etc. will sync with a type of audio sync, but the PX560 will not-it needs to be the "source" of an audio trigger-similar to a "click track" when playing live. I will contact this developer and see what his last device is capable of-if it can create a midi clock out from an audio tone in-I don't think it does-I think it creates a "sync" pulse-but does not do the other way around, receives a sync pulse and converts it to midi clock. and a sync pulse is not the same as an audio tone AFAIK.

[DaveMcM]

Hi there. Below is a link to info that may help. It is from another thread and you may have already seen it but just in case...

clonk here

One device that apparently takes an audible pulse in and converts it to MIDI clock is the Korg Monotribe.

Another device mentioned that is less $ is the Arturia Keystep . Takes an audible pulse and creates MIDI clock.

[Jokeyman123]

Really! I will take a look. Monotribe-never thought of it. Thanks Dave!

[Jokeyman123]

Well, I found a solution-apparently many DJs use this to sync their audio tracks to midi equipment-its called the Redsound Soundbite Micro....

 

https://www.djresource.eu/Gearbase/gear/1412/Redsound-SOUNDBITE-MICRO/

 

Unfortunately it is almost impossible to find, and the few I've found are huge money-half the price of the PX560! The Monotribes apparently are not so easy to find right now either-maybe with the pandemic-all the seller listings I've found are from vendors in Japan, very odd. 

[Chas]

My experiences of DJ's is that everything is done manually by carefully lining up tracks on dual decks and clever mixing between the two. Then again, this was from back in the 80s with all analogue set ups and vinyl records...

 

Can't help you with your current issue unfortunately, Jokeyman. But I do relate to your frustration with MIDI clock being missing from modern devices. I wish I knew WHY it is being omitted - is there a hardware limitation with USB only MIDI? My XW-P1 and G1 have both 5 pin DIN MIDI and USB and they have MIDI clock, but my XW-PD1 and CT-S300 with USB MIDI only do not. Is this also an issue with other manufacturers USB MIDI only devices? If it's a Casio only issue, then someone in Casio's product development needs a good talking to and some sense slapped into them!

 

With many electronic artists doing live streams and live jams, especially during these pandemic times, it is crucial that the devices they are using can synchronize and clock with each other. A device is crippled if it has no MIDI clock and can't be synced in a multi instrument set up. This was so apparent with the XW-PD1, that generated a lot of interest among the electronic music crowd who saw it as a great value rhythm/ sampler box of tricks, but the MIDI clock omission ended up being a deal breaker. It couldn't be integrated into a set up because of its lack of syncing. A real shame, and it could have been a cult item and put Casio on the map for these artists if only it had MIDI clock. A real missed opportunity.

[Jokeyman123]

I just posted somewhere else here-about recording tempo changes with the PX560-having no midi clocks that it is vital to set this tempo first-as without a system track tempo recorded-recording any other track without it seems to cause the tempo to drift. We are thinking this may be due to the CPU not having enough processor power to run too many (or any) additional tasks which would require constant refreshing such as midi clock, more detailed sequencer editing in real time -which can be done but only in the system track as a one-time recording-or using punch-in/out recording on an existing system track a bit of a work-around but with limitations. The other poster discovered that any tempo changes using this method always bring the tempo change to the 1st beat of the measure, regardless where you punch in-it apparently doesn't have the resolution to record the tempo change in any other beat-no big deal, but worth knowing if you do this. So I am thinking the CPU in at least the PX560 might be at the limit of what it is capable of doing-thus certain features are not included and can't be added with a firmware update-such as midi clock, step recording-overdubbing and a few other functions with the recorder that would keep all my recording "in house' Instead of having to be tethered to a computer-which I am most of the time anyway-but like to get away from it when I can!  Working alone in my studio-physical syncing is going to be challenging but my first experiments have been positive-if I needed to do this professionally on location somewhere-totally different pressure to get it right would be much tougher-like a DJ syncing turntables and other computer-generated songs live. Wouldn't want to have to do that. And yes, I think the USB midi connection-without optocouplers and the usual dedicsted UART that was originally required for midi din connections-and provided better error correction and multiplex communication (2-way) USB midi-dependent on computer esign and power-but the standard for baud rates and that it i not error corrcting-I am pretty sure it is not as good a way to transmit mdid clock in and out-software DAWs are there-but still-I would rather have a secure midi din transmit/receive setup, especially with more than one device in a chain. USB mid just does not have the processing through-put, although many ill disagree with me,a debate right there. And shielding with midi din cables-you have 2 separate cables with shielding and grounds on both-on a usb midi din adapter cable, or a printer USB C cable-there is only one cable getting data in and out-with shielding common to both. and at best questionable, or no grounding at all depending on the interior computer design-and the keyboard. Most laptops especially are horrendously lacking in any kind of shielding from external noise and seem to be getting worse (cheaper). Does this matter in a music studio-yes it does. Just stick an old FM/AM radio next to our computer-especially when you start it up-amazing what you will hear depending on how well your computer is shielded.

 

When I get some arrangements done like this, with manual syncing between midi recorders-I will post here-just to show (if) it can be done-thinking digital drums, midi wind controller and malletkat recorded with an external midi sequencer synced to the PX560-just need time!!! Is not on my side!!!!